Why don't people like AFFC?

[Julia Martell]

To the bolded: I'll just wait and see where his story goes as I am still a bit skeptical. Afterall, Martin made Arys a PoV and that was completely unnecessary.

I do believed that The George did say that if he could go back and get rid of any POV, it would be Arys.

Maybe you have to be a rabid Dornish super fan like me to appreciate it, and I understand the argument that the material could have been covered by another Arianne chapter. Indeed, I'm quite sure a chapter for her at this point would have done a lot to help her reputation around these parts.

But that being said it was totally worth it to watch this poor guy being so completely confused by her sexual agency, explaining away all her behaviour with racism, and so determined to stuff their relationship into a box he can understand where she's this poor maiden that he's dishonouring. And she more or less literally tries every trick in the book to get him onboard with her (not all that stupid) plan before finally throwing up her hands and agreeing to go with his narrative.

I liked it. :wideeyed:

And I agree about Auron, although I have faith at this point that he'll justify his existence in tWoW.

[shadow282]

I don't understand the valuing of some POVs over others - POVs aren't divided up on any basis other than as most effective to tell the story. We got the Dornish and Iron Island POVs because they're relevant to the overall story.

Because interesting and effective aren't the same thing. The most effective and efficient way to tell the story would be WOW being 5 sentences long explaining the fate of every character. But that wouldn't be interesting.

Right now the Dornish and the Iron Islands haven't really added anything to the story though. Maybe they will in the future, or maybe they'll just stay uninteresting wastes of time whose contributions to the story could be completely cut with very little change. There's no way to know.

[The Dames do Moan]

Because they're silly and they haven't gone back to re-read it properly. AFFC improves with every re-read and I get the feeling that a lot of people skip bits of it the second time through.

Brienne's storyline is brilliant. The chapters with Nimble Dick and Septon Meribald are some of the best GRRM has written. For the life of me I don't know why people don't like them.

The Iron Islands storyline is fantastic. The kingsmoot is amazing and the Greyjoys are the second most well-written family in the books (after the Lannisters).

The only thing I find a bit grating about AFFC is Cersei's seemingly instantaneous descent into madness. She's so paranoid and stupid in AFFC that I sometimes find it hard to read. I constantly find myself wanting to shout "Why are you being so stupid? You never used to be this stupid!" However I love her chapters. The amount of detail that gets crammed into the small council meetings in AFFC is astounding.

Completely agree. After my first read I personally thought AFfC was the least enjoyable of the 5 books so far. However after rereads (and re-listens to the audio books) I have come to appreciate it more and now it's one of my favorites. You may be right about the skipping bits because my views really changed when I listened to the audio series.

Cersei's chapters are definetly the highlight of the book. I don't think it was specifically instantaneous or outrageous though, we didn't have her POV and she didn't have the same level of power prior to AFfC. There was a decsent certainly but think about the position she was in, All of this happened at the end of ASoS or beginning of AFfC

• Her first born son is killed by her brother. Internally one of the bigger traits she defined herself as was being a mother. To lose her 1st born, especially in the way it happened would certainly push her down the rabbit hole.

Her father, whom she clearly had much love and respect for, was killed by her brother

Said brother escaped custody

She is growing further and further apart from the love of her life

The Valonqar Prophecy is what puts it over the top though. She obviously has always known it but the negative aspects to the prophecy start coming true and she feels helpless against it. The way she dealt with Sansa and Marg previously, I think was driven some what by the prophecy. She now see's her "Valonqar" (whether is actually turns out to be Tyrion or not is pointless, because she believes its him) is actually capable of murdering family members, she see's her kids dying. She's driven almost completely in trying to avoid it and bleeds through in almost every decision she makes.

Anyway, I did have that impression on AFfC originally but my opinions changed and thought iit was great after the re-reads.

Or it could be that people just don't like it because only 13% of the chapters (6 out of 45) are the Starks.

[Northernmonkey]

Right now the Dornish and the Iron Islands haven't really added anything to the story though. Maybe they will in the future, or maybe they'll just stay uninteresting wastes of time whose contributions to the story could be completely cut with very little change. There's no way to know.

They're obviously going to be important to the story. Vic's in Meereen with the Iron Fleet, Euron's about to attack the reach, Doran is dead set on revenge against the Lannisters and Lady Nym and Tyene are on their way to Kings Landing. We've just got to be patient.

[Prince Lou of House Reed]

It doesn't capitalize on the momentum that ASOS created. I believe AFFC and A dance should have been trimmed and combined and then it would have been a truly amazing book.

[BearQueen87]

It doesn't capitalize on the momentum that ASOS created. I believe AFFC and A dance should have been trimmed and combined and then it would have been a truly amazing book.

I do wish GRRM and the editors had kept AFFC and Dance POVs together but split over two books

[Dragon in the North]

I like AFFC, but it's my least favorite in the series. There's too much filler and storylines that lead nowhere. There is also a minuscule amount of plot advancement.

[Good Guy Garlan]

It wouldn't have worked from Asha's point of view because she had to speak at the Kingsmoot. With Aeron we get to see it from the outside looking in. If we saw it from Asha's point of view it would have been all about her.

I get your point, but that's like saying Tyrion and Davos couldn't have been POVs in the Blackwater because they fought in the battle. It's fine for POVs to be witnesses sometimes, but they also have to be players. Regarding the kingsmoot, Asha's POV would have made it more suspenseful for me because I would've thought she had a shot of actually winning the damn thing. As it was, from Aeron's perspective, I was sure Euron was going to win.

[Aetta]

AFfC tasks the reader with switching gears from a completely action based storyline which highlights a few core characters/families to a plot that feels slower, introduces a lot of detail without conclusive action, and which creates a sort of barrier between one group of characters and another. Even if that barrier is only perceived, it's hard to deny that there is a segregation we did not see in the first three. And clearly GRRM knows this, that's why he informs us at the end of the book that he'll be getting back to the other crew in ADwD.

I didn't feel like ADwD was nearly as partitioned as AFfC, but that's probably because it gets back to the familiarity of the more protagonistic characters we knew in the beginning. (We'll argue later about whether Dany, Theon, Tyrion are protagonsists or not, but they feel like it to the virgin reader through ASoS).

[hatbar]

I really miss the Stark family in Feast. The series started with them as the 'main' family and I became so invested in their story that I find it difficult to be as bothered with people like Victarion and Arys Oakheart who I don't find as interesting or captivating. That's not to say I don't like new POV's as Jaime and Davos have become two of my favourite characters.

[Lord Lannister]

I do wish GRRM and the editors had kept AFFC and Dance POVs together but split over two books

Agreed. That's probably the biggest issue I have with the two novels. The divide is awkward at best and really left me feeling unsatisfied as a reader.

[The Wolves]

I must be the only one but I hated Cersei's chapters they were repetative and not funny at all. The people in her chapters were boring because all the interesting people who were in KL were either dead or gone.

I harbor irrational hatred of Jaime so reading about his regrets, doubts, and self pitying while he gave Riverrun to a bunch of mass murderers made me hate him more and not appreciate his whinning.

Brienne is complete useless to me all her chapters were boring there were some parts that I liked.

Sam didn't have the most interesting chapters but I liked him more and more.

Sansa and Arya chapters I liked because they were in calm situations somewhat so I liked that and I liked hearing about the Vale.

It was a okay book I don't hate it though.

[Northernmonkey]

I get your point, but that's like saying Tyrion and Davos couldn't have been POVs in the Blackwater because they fought in the battle. It's fine for POVs to be witnesses sometimes, but they also have to be players. Regarding the kingsmoot, Asha's POV would have made it more suspenseful for me because I would've thought she had a shot of actually winning the damn thing. As it was, from Aeron's perspective, I was sure Euron was going to win.

But unlike the Blackwater the kingsmoot was a battle of words and from Asha's point of view it would have been completely biased. Obviously Aeron was biased towards Victarion but he's also wise and cyncial enough to give us an accurate appraisal. Asha was probably hyped up, nervous and excited, to the extent that she wouldn't be reliable as a narrator.

I just think it worked perfectly from Aeron's point of view, and writing it from the point of view of one of the contenders would unbalance the whole thing. And it would mean GRRM giving preference to either Asha or Victarion.

[Mithras]

Kingsmoot looks like a failure from Aeron's POV because "the godless man was elected with the connivance of the Storm God". In fact, the kingsmoot was a success because Euron is the perfect candidate to satisfy the needs of the Drowned God, if that is what Aeron was looking for.

[Loic]

Because most of the storylines do not conclude or seem unnecessary, since AFfC wasn't born to be a standalone book.
Once (and if) TWoW comes out and strings get tied once again it will be different.
Until then all I get as a reader is Brienne wasting space on paper and Victarion/Aeron/Asha/Arianne's storylines not only coming to a conclusion, but rather not even coming halfway.
Someone could say that the same applies for Sansa and Arya as well, except that they are characters who we've been familiar with for four books and not apparent random nobodies we got stuck with.

Then I remember that Robb marrying Jeine Westerling was a pretty huge deal that I never saw on screentime, my reaction back then... and then notice that Arys Oakheart got a whole fucking POV chapter just because.

Until new material comes out I don't see any practical reason why Aeron/Arys/Areo's POV should exist (I have some idea, but that's it - and in the meantime, enjoy some of the less developed characters of the series since developing them in very few chapters without falling into the stereotype trap it's incredibly hard - the first one to tell me that Arys or Areo are compelling characters gets a bad look), nor why we should get so many Brienne and Samwell's chapters (up until now I have only hypotesis waiting for a confirmation). Can't say I really like it.

[Consigliere]

It wouldn't have worked from Asha's point of view because she had to speak at the Kingsmoot. With Aeron we get to see it from the outside looking in. If we saw it from Asha's point of view it would have been all about her.

I disagree. The chapter would have worked just as well from Asha's PoV. To each their own, I suppose.

[Grand Moff Mithrandir]

I love AFFC for its slow burn atmosphere. You get to see Cersei's descent into full blown paranoia, Brienne's wonderful adventures and the magnificent kingsmoot storyline.

Top tier stuff.

[Northernmonkey]

I disagree. The chapter would have worked just as well from Asha's PoV. To each their own, I suppose.

But if it was from Asha's POV it would make it all about her. It would be like GRRM saying she's more important than Victarion.

The kingsmoot chapter was absolutely perfect as it is. And it was fitting that we see it through Aeron's eyes because he's the one who called the kingsmoot. And also it means we get this brilliant ending to the chapter:

Even a priest may doubt. Even a prophet may know terror. Aeron Damphair reached within himself for his god and discovered only silence. As a thousand voices shouted out his brother’s name, all he could hear was the scream of a rusted iron hinge

[Third sons]

I like AFFC, not the strongest book sure. But the adventures of Jamie was a big plus. The Kingsmoot was a highlight for me and i like the intro for a new villan Euron. Brienne was a little bit boring i must admit and jumpt over some of her chapters.

[Grand Moff Mithrandir]

Ooh yes, how could I forget Jamie's misadventures. Some of GRRM's finest writing came from Affc.