Michael Brown Shooting Cont

[theprincethatwasntpromised]

As far as I can remember the big issue has always been the execution style killing, at a point when there never has seemed to be a reason for imminent threat. And that hasn't changed at all with any evidence I've seen come out of the grand jury process.

Of course we all know from previous cases how difficult it is to convict once someone claims 'I was afraid of my life'. Especially when the person responsible for a death is in a position of power in society.

Execution style killing? That's not even close to what happened. You know what an execution style killing is, right?

[Jslay427]

Also no. They failed to find enough evidence to continue with a criminal trial. That does not make it a just shooting. That does not make Wilson innocent. That does not excuse his behavior in any way. All it says is that there was not enough evidence to convict him of committing a crime.

Saying that Wilson is innocent is incorrect.

Saying that Wilson was justified in shooting Brown because of the grand jury shooting is incorrect.

It's the same murder cases where nobody will come forward. There is no evidence, but a clear suspect.that suspect is innocent until proven guilty. Innocent until proven guilty means Wilson is innocent because nothing has been proved against him. He hasn't been found guilty of any wrong doing so what is he then? That would be innocent. Doesn't mean he actually is, but according to our justice system it does.

[Jslay427]

Just who am I talking too? If I suggested people in Missouri to riot would not the ban stick be used?

[Kalbear]

Terra, I don't think that those things will work because they still don't address the police angle. From what I've seen racism is a big deal, and financial and social inequity is a big deal - but the thing that I'm likely able to change more than anything is how police are affecting everyone. This seems to go beyond racism too, though that certainly hurts. It is the ability of police to do whatever they want and get away with it that really worries.

And I probably cannot do anything about it at Ferguson. But I can do something here, to make sure that it doesn't happen in my community.

[Suttree]

TP that's just being dishonest. Many people were questioning the initial confrontation at the SUV

Should be very easy for you to provide a single example then. What started the initial confrontation has been debated, I don't recall anyone disputing it actually happened though.

[Jslay427]

I have lots of people on ignore, but Terra isn't one of them, and I have no idea what you're talking about. Honest question, where did Terra call for riots? I confess I've skimmed a lot lately, especially with how fast the thread moves and the number of posts hidden by the ignore function.

Don't know if the post was removed but he said something along the lines of "if Wilson is not indicted the people there should riot."

[Kalbear]

It's the same murder cases where nobody will come forward. There is no evidence, but a clear suspect.that suspect is innocent until proven guilty. Innocent until proven guilty means Wilson is innocent because nothing has been proved against him. He hasn't been found guilty of any wrong doing so what is he then? That would be innocent. Doesn't mean he actually is, but according to our justice system it does.

Criminally, sure, though "not indictable" is probably a much more accurate thing.

It still does not make it a just killing. It still does not make his behavior justified.

[The Mance]

The forensic report that Brown's DNA was found on Wilson's gun and clothing supported his claim that Brown tried to wrestle his gun and the two fought in the car. The physical evidence also shows that Brown was moving toward Wilson when he was shot during the second volley bullets.

Most interesting was that many people have previously and adamantly try to portray Wilson as a trigger happy racist who were more than eager to racially profile Brown; and that Wilson has no prior knowledge of the calls about the store robbery made just minutes ago and the description of the suspects that matched Brown and his friend ................ turns out that there were two alerts about the robbery which Wilson received immediately prior to the encounter.

As others have pointed out already, that there was some sort of struggle in the vehicle has never been disputed. The contentions were over the nature and initiation of that struggle, and the only source of explanation for that is Wilson's own testimony.

As far as Brown's movements, sure, at some point after he was shot he was moving towards towards Wilson. But that doesn't address the more important question of when Brown started advancing, before or after Wilson started firing at him.

I guess you've got us regarding what Wilson knew and when, though. That'll teach us to believe the Ferguson PD.

[The Fallen]

Don't know if the post was removed but he said something along the lines of "if Wilson is not indicted the people there should riot."

And he stated why, giving examples of the part it's played in this country's history. Sometimes you gotta go old school.

And are you guys insinuating that TP's tolerance for riots somehow influenced the events in Ferguson?

[Mr. Chatywin et al.]

I just want to make sure I didn't mishear anything, but am I correct to say that the county prosector said the final shot, the fatal shot, was fired when Brown was on his knees, slumping forward?

[aceluby]

I just want to make sure I didn't mishear anything, but am I correct to say that the county prosector said the final shot, the fatal shot, was fired when Brown was on his knees, slumping forward?

Not sure about the on his knees bit (that would be an execution), but he was slumping forward. The cop's story being he was charging, because when someone has unloaded a half dozen bullets into me I know my first reaction would be to run at them for 20 feet. But hey, who needs logic when one can constantly tailor their story to the evidence as it comes out.

[Jslay427]

And he stated why, giving examples of the part it's played in this country's history. Sometimes you gotta go old school.

And are you guys insinuating that TP's tolerance for riots somehow influenced the events in Ferguson?

Using "going old school" is great logic. Maybe we should go back even older school and use some idea from the bible?

[NestorMakhnosLovechild]

Using "going old school" is great logic. Maybe we should go back even older school and use some idea from the bible?

How about we just state our positions and then provide the arguments that we use to justify them, regardless of what century they're from.

TP made an argument justifying the use of riots in certain circumstances. He's not the first nor the only person to have done so. When he was questioned about it, he offered his arguments in support of his position. What's the problem? I'm not sure what you think you're gaining by pretending to clutch your pearls over the fact that he has a position you disagree with.

[Jslay427]

How about we just state our positions and then provide the arguments that we use to justify them, regardless of what century they're from.

TP made an argument justifying the use of riots in certain circumstances. He's not the first nor the only person to have done so. When he was questioned about it, he offered his arguments in support of his position. What's the problem? I'm not sure what you think you're gaining by pretending to clutch your pearls over the fact that he has a position you disagree with.

Maybe you should look up the definition of rioting and then think if that's something you can justify especially when human lives being lost are a strong possibility.

If he had said protest, that would be a different story. But, you know, he didnt.

[Andrew Hill]

I must be an idiot, but the facts presented by the grand jury show that brown was clearly in control most of the confrontation. What was Wilson supposed to do? Drive off and say we'll get em next time?

I'm not saying he should have shot him, but Brown wasn't innocent in this.

[TerraPrime]

Re: Ini

It's in the last locked thread http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/116678-michael-brown-shooting-and-civil-unrest-goes-forth/?hl=%2Bterraprime+%2Briot#entry6305998%C2'>

Started around #19 for a few posts, then got picked up again around #300.

Re: Andrew Hill

There seems to exist a large range of responses available between "letting Brown go" and "killing Brown on the spot," even for police procedures.

[NestorMakhnosLovechild]

Maybe you should look up the definition of rioting and then think if that's something you can justify especially when human lives being lost are a strong possibility.

If he had said protest, that would be a different story. But, you know, he didnt.

I'm sorry - what exactly do you think your point is?

In the prior incarnation of this thread I already went on the record as disagreeing with TP's position on whether rioting is justified. So as near as I can tell, we both think TP is wrong on this issue. (Although in fairness, he also suggested that he did not believe that the situation in Ferguson specifically did not warrant rioting).

So what?

[theprincethatwasntpromised]

I must be an idiot, but the facts presented by the grand jury show that brown was clearly in control most of the confrontation. What was Wilson supposed to do? Drive off and say we'll get em next time?

I'm not saying he should have shot him, but Brown wasn't innocent in this.

Apparently one guy on here believes Wilson should have ran backwards to avoid Brown. I'd say you're not an idiot but objective.

[Jslay427]

I'm sorry - what exactly do you think your point is?

In the prior incarnation of this thread I already went on the record as disagreeing with TP's position on whether rioting is justified. So as near as I can tell, we both think TP is wrong on this issue. (Although in fairness, he also suggested that he did not believe that the situation in Ferguson specifically did not warrant rioting).

So what?

Since you were very quick to come to his defense, I just assumed you shared his point of view. So is this a you don't agree with his opinion, but goddammit you'll die to make sure it's heard kind of thing?

[The Notorious]

Ok listen, if you gonna make claim about what people said, then let's actually link to what they have posted .... here's what TP actually stated:

http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/116678-michael-brown-shooting-and-civil-unrest-goes-forth/#entry6305892

People should riot, in full swing, if there is no indictment. This event warrants a trial, where all the evidence can be assessed in an open court.

http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/116678-michael-brown-shooting-and-civil-unrest-goes-forth/page-2#entry6306479

Rioting is one of the most fundamental tools that citizens have in the face of gross, insurmountable injustice. It is what the 2nd Amendment is intended to enable, not so that people can carry a loaded hunting rifle to get food at Taco Bell. If the governing body proves itself to be inacapable of rendering a just solution when given a chance, then the citizens absolutely has the right, and moral oblgiation, to take to the streets.

He didn't say people should riot just for shit and giggles. He clearly explained his position that riots are extreme measures which are justifiable "in the face of gross, insurmountable injustice" and when the government "proves itself to be inacapable of rendering a just solution when given a chance". I also concur with Nestor that TP has also stated that "he did not believe that the situation in Ferguson specifically did not warrant rioting" and use the apt example of apartheid South Africa as where riots are entirely justified.