Michael Brown Shooting Cont

[Kalbear]

A way to solve the equipment malfunction is assumption of guilt on any malfunction. At the very least, something like conspiracy or manslaughter is automatic.

[Manhole Eunuchsbane]

I think Wisconsin is the best example of where to go next. Require all police shootings or incidences of violence to be examined by outside agencies.

Better still. I like it.

[Summah]

There's a rather lengthy wapo article posted on an earlier thread about the region and its government. It was noted that the only town in the area where there is significantly less racial profiling and arrests of black people were Berkeley, where all the town political power structure was dominated by black people. They still have the same problem with lack of funding which lead to creative uses of the various codes and fees for running a barely functional local government, but winning elections and representing the interest of the majority population of the town seems to work for Berkeley.

I'm glad that works for Berkeley. However a black majority city with black political power structure does not mean there won't still be disproportionate racial profiling and institutionalized racism throughout the criminal justice system. Look at Baltimore or Washington DC, both have black political power structures (for DC on a local level), both are majority black and both still have racial profiling and racially biased criminal justice systems.

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

tptwp,

It's not going to trial because the jury found his acting justified. You have failed to understand that. I'm actually for cameras on police officers, BTW.

No. Not at all. They found insufficient evidence to indict. That's all. You keep imputing much more to the Grand Jury than it actually accomplished or claimed to accomplish.

[awesome possum]

Reading through the Grand Jury Testimony and I'm only on the ME (first witness) but if this is any indication of the investigation at large, what a clusterfuck. He didn't take photographs (because his camera died). He didn't take any measurements of the scene because "what happened was self-explanatory."

He also didn't find any gun residue on Brown on his immediate search.

And, because I'm not familiar with grand jury's, is it common for the prosecutors to encourage the jurors to ask the questions here? At one point Alizadeh for the prosecution says, "Don't be afraid to ask a question because I've been kind of making suggestions ... I don't want to ask a question because Kathi (the other prosecutor) might yell at me."

Is the prosecutor really saying that asking questions to a witness might get her yelled at or is this common?

tptwp,


No. Not at all. They found insufficient evidence to indict. That's all. You keep imputing much more to the Grand Jury than it actually accomplished or claimed to accomplish.

This is the same guy who was claiming that what essentially amounted to 17% of the vote in the midterms is a "tidal wave" of support leading to a mandate.

AKA

You guys take him too seriously.

[The Mance]

It's kinda amazing that nobody so far has been honest enough to admit that their initial assessment of the physical evidences were flat wrong but keep trying to find fault with prosecutorial misconduct.

The only new bit of physical evidence that i've heard of is the finding of Brown's blood 25 ft behind his body. Which does suggest that he was moving towards Wilson between the time that he was first struck by a bullet and the time that he fell dead. Although it doesn't do anything to characterize that movement as either an aggressive charge, or wounded staggering. Nor does it indicate whether Brown was moving towards Wilson at or before the time of the first shot.

Apart from that, though, what do you think anyone was "flat wrong" about? There are still a bunch of conflicting eyewitness accounts, and some other bits of generally inconclusive physical evidence. All of which was left up to the subjective interpretations of the grand jury panel in the face of Wilson's no doubt artfully crafted testimony.

[OnionAhaiReborn]

So guys - how do we fix this? I don't care nearly as much about getting justice for Brown as I do making sure that cops don't shoot black people in absurdly high proportions. How does this get fixed? GoPros on every cop? Significantly more oversight on the police? What will work?

One solution- which, I admit, we're not very likely to go for- is to disarm the police to an extent. I don't think we should consider it a given that every police officer on patrol needs a gun, or needs that gun to be on their hip at all times. Maybe the guns should stay in the trunk of the police car, or back at the station until a specific need arises.

[The Notorious]

The only new bit of physical evidence that i've heard of is the finding of Brown's blood 25 ft behind his body. Which does suggest that he was moving towards Wilson between the time that he was first struck by a bullet and the time that he fell dead. Although it doesn't do anything to characterize that movement as either an aggressive charge, or wounded staggering. Nor does it indicate whether Brown was moving towards Wilson at or before the time of the first shot.

Apart from that, though, what do you think anyone was "flat wrong" about? There are still a bunch of conflicting eyewitness accounts, and some other bits of generally inconclusive physical evidence. All of which was left up to the subjective interpretations of the grand jury panel in the face of Wilson's no doubt artfully crafted testimony.

The forensic report that Brown's DNA was found on Wilson's gun and clothing supported his claim that Brown tried to wrestle his gun and the two fought in the car. The physical evidence also shows that Brown was moving toward Wilson when he was shot during the second volley bullets.

Most interesting was that many people have previously and adamantly try to portray Wilson as a trigger happy racist who were more than eager to racially profile Brown; and that Wilson has no prior knowledge of the calls about the store robbery made just minutes ago and the description of the suspects that matched Brown and his friend ................ turns out that there were two alerts about the robbery which Wilson received immediately prior to the encounter.

[TrueMetis]

Pictures of Wilson right after the altercation. Dude looks like he's barely injured, yet claimed he was struck twice and that he feared the third blow would be fatal. Also, he calls Mike Brown "it" multple times. But you know, fair investigation and all....

http://www.cnn.com/2014/11/25/justice/ferguson-grand-jury-documents/index.html

Fucking scumbags.

The medical investigator took no photos

The medical investigator did not take photographs at the scene of Brown's killing because the camera battery had died, the grand jury heard.

The investigator, who goes to the crime scene to collect evidence for the pathologist, also did not take measurements of anything at the scene because they "didn't need to."

The investigator, whose name was redacted, said: "It was self-explanatory what happened. Somebody shot somebody. There was no question as to any distances or anything of that nature at the time I was there."

Typically, a medical investigator will take crime scene photos in addition to the ones taken by police investigators.

The investigator testified that they did not see evidence of "stippling" (gunpowder) around the wounds on Brown's body.

Ya totally no corruption there.

[NestorMakhnosLovechild]

The forensic report that Brown's DNA was found on Wilson's gun and clothing supported his claim that Brown tried to wrestle his gun and the two fought in the car. The physical evidence also shows that Brown was moving toward Wilson when he was shot during the second volley bullets.

Most interesting was that many people have previously and adamantly try to portray Wilson as a trigger happy racist who were more than eager to racially profile Brown; and that Wilson has no prior knowledge of the calls about the store robbery made just minutes ago and the description of the suspects that matched Brown and his friend ................ turns out that there were two alerts about the robbery which Wilson received immediately prior to the encounter.

Obviously, I'd be the first to agree that the initial media narrative that came out about the shooting has proven to be incredibly resilient even when contradicted by the physical evidence.

That being said, on the issue of Wilson not having prior knowledge of the calls about the store robbery - that was a detail that was picked up specifically from the Police Department's own press conference that was held after the shooting, after they had a chance to speak to Wilson. They specifically said the stop was unconnected to the robbery. The first indication anyone had that this was not the case were from the unsourced leaks that started coming out a few weeks ago. The press conference last night was the first time that there was any "official" word that Wilson not only knew about the robbery, but specifically suspected Brown to be involved in it.

[NestorMakhnosLovechild]

Pictures of Wilson right after the altercation. Dude looks like he's barely injured, yet claimed he was struck twice and that he feared the third blow would be fatal. Also, he calls Mike Brown "it" multple times. But you know, fair investigation and all....

http://www.cnn.com/2014/11/25/justice/ferguson-grand-jury-documents/index.html

I read the snippets provided by the CNN link. I don't see any indication that Wilson referred to Brown as "it" multiple times. There are multiple quoted statements from Wilson referring to Brown as "him." There is one statement, which I'll copy below, in which Wilson uses "it" in an ambiguous manner. Although in context, I think he's referring to his gun as "it" in that he fired "it" several times:

"As he is coming towards me, I tell, keep telling him to get on the ground, he doesn't. I shoot a series of shots. I don't know how many I shot, I just know I shot it," he said.

[theprincethatwasntpromised]

The forensic report that Brown's DNA was found on Wilson's gun and clothing supported his claim that Brown tried to wrestle his gun and the two fought in the car. The physical evidence also shows that Brown was moving toward Wilson when he was shot during the second volley bullets.

Most interesting was that many people have previously and adamantly try to portray Wilson as a trigger happy racist who were more than eager to racially profile Brown; and that Wilson has no prior knowledge of the calls about the store robbery made just minutes ago and the description of the suspects that matched Brown and his friend ................ turns out that there were two alerts about the robbery which Wilson received immediately prior to the encounter.

Thank you! I posted this about the audio a week ago and it was dismissed. The facts don't matter to some around here. They can't get past the way this whole thing was wrongfully reported in the first place. The minute they heard "white cop shoots unarmed black teen" they already decided Wilson was guilty. The facts do not and will not matter to those guys.

[TerraPrime]

The forensic report that Brown's DNA was found on Wilson's gun and clothing supported his claim that Brown tried to wrestle his gun and the two fought in the car. The physical evidence also shows that Brown was moving toward Wilson when he was shot during the second volley bullets.

Most interesting was that many people have previously and adamantly try to portray Wilson as a trigger happy racist who were more than eager to racially profile Brown; and that Wilson has no prior knowledge of the calls about the store robbery made just minutes ago and the description of the suspects that matched Brown and his friend ................ turns out that there were two alerts about the robbery which Wilson received immediately prior to the encounter.

I don't recall people doubting that a confrontation took place at the police car initially, so that was not a point of contention. The contention was the severity of injury that Wilson sustained, a.k.a. "orbital blowout" injury, which turned out to be not substantiated.

The physical evidence did confirm that Brown was present near the gun when it was discharged first in the car, which, again, was not in doubt from the beginning.

The part of the physical evidence that did clear up some facts is the position of Brown when the fatal shots were fired.

Other than that, I don't see anything new added to the discourse by the revealed reports.

Regarding Wilson approaching Brown on account of suspecting Brown as the person who robbed the store, there is still much confusion to this. For one, the Ferguson PD Chief said in public that Wilson didn't know of the robbery when he approached Brown, and he said this I believe the 2nd or 3rd day after the shooting.

Further on that issue, I am still unclear why there was a police call that went out at all, when the store clerk didn't file charges. What is the standard procedure in those situations when someone is not filing a report but which the police think there was a crime committed?

By and large, with errors in details, the impression that a police officer shot and killed an unarmed teenager while not engaged in an actual struggle that posed imminent threat to the officer's life seemed to withstand scrutiny. Wilson perceived himself to be in imminent threat, for sure, but objectively, that does not seem to be a valid conclusion. I think Wilson was scared, intimidated, angry, with adrenaline running, and he reacted disproportionately, resulting in the death of Brown.

[Ned Snow]

tptwp, GotB, Ned Snow,

No.

By that logic if somone is found murdered in their home and there is insufficient evidence to indict a particular individual for that murder "no crime was commited". That is not the case.

In my hypothetical a crime was clearly commited there was simply not enough evidence to indict any particular person for the murder. Grand Juries do not say "no crime was committed" they say nothing regarding the facts of a particular case they say only there is or is not sufficient evidence for a trial to take place.

They say no more and no less.

I was speaking strictly about the legal effect of the decision not to indict.

[Inigima]

So far those of us who are outraged by this: where do we go from here? What can we do that will have real, tangible results? Best suggestion I've seen so far is to donate to the public library there, but that seems so far removed from the situation.

[TerraPrime]

Re: Kalbear

As to what can we do to fix it...

Well, I will start with what we should do to fix it:

1. Address structural issues of income inequality by ways of investing in the community through job training programs and through vocational training opportunities.

2. Offer meaningful assistance to overcome poverty, such as rent-to-buy options for government housing units, available daycare for working families, public transit systems that are affordable to low income families and which can help them get to their jobs.

3. Stronger collaborations with local communities and local organizations, i.e. community policing.

4. Reform the city political structures to make the black community members more of a stakeholder in the city.

5. A Federal DoJ investigation into the Ferguson and St. Louis PD and DA offices to uncover the irregular and/or illegal actions concerning disproportionate targeting of minorities.

Here's what I think we can realistically accomplish, with luck:

1. Some kind liaison officers who work with the local communities

2. Couple of changes in key personnel positions in the PD and DA

3. Exoneration of wrong-doing on the parts of the PD and DA

Here's what I think is more likely to happen:

1. PR-oriented efforts to show that they're "doing something to address problems"

2. Nothing.

[TerraPrime]

Re: Ini

I feel that from afar, the most we can do is to keep attention on the issue in the public media so that it's more difficult to sweep things under the rug. Public scrutiny is still a good motivator for reforms, imo.

[theprincethatwasntpromised]

I don't recall people doubting that a confrontation took place at the police car initially, so that was not a point of contention. The contention was the severity of injury that Wilson sustained, a.k.a. "orbital blowout" injury, which turned out to be not substantiated.

The physical evidence did confirm that Brown was present near the gun when it was discharged first in the car, which, again, was not in doubt from the beginning.

The part of the physical evidence that did clear up some facts is the position of Brown when the fatal shots were fired.

Other than that, I don't see anything new added to the discourse by the revealed reports.

Regarding Wilson approaching Brown on account of suspecting Brown as the person who robbed the store, there is still much confusion to this. For one, the Ferguson PD Chief said in public that Wilson didn't know of the robbery when he approached Brown, and he said this I believe the 2nd or 3rd day after the shooting.

Further on that issue, I am still unclear why there was a police call that went out at all, when the store clerk didn't file charges. What is the standard procedure in those situations when someone is not filing a report but which the police think there was a crime committed?

By and large, with errors in details, the impression that a police officer shot and killed an unarmed teenager while not engaged in an actual struggle that posed imminent threat to the officer's life seemed to withstand scrutiny. Wilson perceived himself to be in imminent threat, for sure, but objectively, that does not seem to be a valid conclusion. I think Wilson was scared, intimidated, angry, with adrenaline running, and he reacted disproportionately, resulting in the death of Brown.

TP that's just being dishonest. Many people were questioning the initial confrontation at the SUV. I'm sure if you look back through the threads, you'll see that happened frequently. And as for you calling for riots, do you still believe that is justified?

http://stlouis.cbslocal.com/2014/11/25/report-body-of-black-male-found-shot-to-death-set-on-fire-near-apartment-complex-where-michael-brown-died/

This is shameful. How could anyone be for this type of behavior? This man died and for what?

[The Fallen]

Nice banner that reads "BLACK LIVES MATTER" at St. Mark's Church in the East Village.

[Seli]

As far as I can remember the big issue has always been the execution style killing, at a point when there never has seemed to be a reason for imminent threat. And that hasn't changed at all with any evidence I've seen come out of the grand jury process.

Of course we all know from previous cases how difficult it is to convict once someone claims 'I was afraid of my life'. Especially when the person responsible for a death is in a position of power in society.