Heresy 142 [World of Ice and Fire spoilers]

[Black Crow]

In retrospect, of course, the Horn functioning this way would probably make for an awfully slow destruction, unless there's hordes of firewyrms dormant beneath the Wall; also the WB has seemingly confirmed the notion that "wake sleeping giants beneath the earth" is just a fancy Westerosi way of saying earthquake.

Not necessarily earthquakes, but certainly rumblings. I'm not sure about the fyrewyrms though. I think that might be too "technical" or perhaps too precise. Although its interesting to tie things like the Hammer of the Waters into real-world events such as the breaching of the Wealden-Artois Anticline I'm ever mindful of GRRM's reluctance to delve into the mechanics or rules of magic, rightly I think holding that to explain magic is to take away the magic.

[JNR]

As always I remain humbled by the erudition brought to this thread in so many ways and also by how over these three years we have managed to maintain a civilized conversation characterized by great good humour, goodwill and ultimately perhaps, friendship.

In his post yesterday Mace thanked me for clicking the POST button three years ago. I have to thank all of you for participating and doing the same to make Heresy what it is.

Thank You

Briefly delurking to acknowledge that while BC and I have had our differences, I still think that, as the above text illustrates, he has generally run this thread with class, fostering a spirit of collaborative openmindedness and scholarly investigation from which example certain other threads might profit.

[Black Crow]

Thank you, you have been missed and would be welcome back

[Syri0_F0rel]

Maze builders:

It is interesting that the black buildings are found across the continents of planetos. To provide some historic relevance for consideration. The fortress on Battle Island may not be a real maze. I have a useless classical archaeology degree from the University of Michigan and I often see parallels in ASOIAF to civilizations I studied in college. The first European civilization was the bronze age Minoan culture based out of the island of Crete (4,000 years ago). Many Greeks and Europeans considered the Palace at Knossos to be the labyrinth where Theseus killed the Minotaur. Really, the Palace of Knossos (map) was not a maze, it just had a ton of storage space and small chambers. Interestingly too, Crete was covered in axe symbols (the labrys) similar to those left by the Andals in the Vale and mentioned in other parts east of Andalos.

[The Snowfyre Chorus]

Briefly delurking to acknowledge that while BC and I have had our differences, I still think that, as the above text illustrates, he has generally run this thread with class, fostering a spirit of collaborative openmindedness and scholarly investigation from which example certain other threads might profit.

Word. :cheers:

.

[redrose]

Briefly delurking to acknowledge that while BC and I have had our differences, I still think that, as the above text illustrates, he has generally run this thread with class, fostering a spirit of collaborative openmindedness and scholarly investigation from which example certain other threads might profit.

Couldn't agree with this post any more. Thanks BC.

Thank you, you have been missed and would be welcome back

Couldn't agree with this post any more. Would love to get your insight (JNR) on the revelations in the WoIaF book. Namely the info on no children in Assai and its relationship with WWs and Magic in general.

[aDanceWithFlagons]

:cheers: everybody. Delicious ham and terrible vegetable casseroles all around.

Your mother's a Targaryen.

[wolfmaid7]

Thanks very much BC for making this a place for us rejects to say the un voiceable and think the unthinkable. I have enjoyed all the conversations and consider you al my peeps . I raise my class of not eggnog :cheers:

[Black Crow]

Maze builders:

It is interesting that the black buildings are found across the continents of planetos. To provide some historic relevance for consideration. The fortress on Battle Island may not be a real maze. I have a useless classical archaeology degree from the University of Michigan and I often see parallels in ASOIAF to civilizations I studied in college. The first European civilization was the bronze age Minoan culture based out of the island of Crete (4,000 years ago). Many Greeks and Europeans considered the Palace at Knossos to be the labyrinth where Theseus killed the Minotaur. Really, the Palace of Knossos (map) was not a maze, it just had a ton of storage space and small chambers. Interestingly too, Crete was covered in axe symbols (the labrys) similar to those left by the Andals in the Vale and mentioned in other parts east of Andalos.

Depends as always how you define a maze or labyrinth. The impression I had from the World Book entry on Lorath was that the maze wasn't necessary a puzzle palace with a centre but a dark place which needed the third eye to be able to find your way through it to whatever chamber you sought - which isn't necessarily to say that the priests of the blind god had ever managed to open it. Another example of this kind of labyrinth is of course the House of the Undying.

The labrys is an intriguing reference, obviously associated as you say with the Minoan ones, but as I don't recall it being associated with the Andals before - just the carving of Seven pointed stars - I wonder if there is a connection implied in the decision to refer to them in the World Book

[Syri0_F0rel]

Depends as always how you define a maze or labyrinth. The impression I had from the World Book entry on Lorath was that the maze wasn't necessary a puzzle palace with a centre but a dark place which needed the third eye to be able to find your way through it to whatever chamber you sought - which isn't necessarily to say that the priests of the blind god had ever managed to open it. Another example of this kind of labyrinth is of course the House of the Undying.

The labrys is an intriguing reference, obviously associated as you say with the Minoan ones, but as I don't recall it being associated with the Andals before - just the carving of Seven pointed stars - I wonder if there is a connection implied in the decision to refer to them in the World Book

Normal people moved into the mazes at Battle Island and Lorath.

Battle Island

"The early Hightowers lived amidst the gloomy halls, vaults and chambers of the strange stone below."

Lorath

"Scholars still debate the purpose of the mazes. Were they fortifications, temples or towns? Or did they serve other, strange purpose?"

"Andal... Qarlon the Great... raised a great wooden keep at the center the Lorassyon's vast, haunted maze and decorated his halls with the heads of his slain foes."

"The Blind God and his followers made the ancient mazes of the first Lorathi their towns, temples and tombs..."

The priests of the Blind God were the eunuchs using blindness to strengthen their third eye, but not every follower of the Blind God was a priest. Everyone still lived in the mazes. Where did it say there is a dark place requiring powers to reach?

I don't relate the House of the Undying to the maze makers. or mysterious black buildings.

[Black Crow]

The point of the blinding was sensory deprivation to help open the third eye - as we've seen with Bran, and is suggested by the experience of Arya moving on from wolf dreams to skinchanging the cat while she was blind. We've also discussed in the past how Bloodraven/Kurtz may have opened his third eye while in the Black cells.

There seems, in short to be an association of labyrinths [however constructed and whether or not they are now abandoned by their original builders] with the "powers" of darkness. What it says in the World Book is that blindness was necessary to open that third eye and see the hidden truths - just as in far off Asshai seekers after te truth must go up the river [but presumably not on Marlow's steamer] to reach the Heart of Darkness.

[wolfmaid7]

The point of the blinding was sensory deprivation to help open the third eye - as we've seen with Bran, and is suggested by the experience of Arya moving on from wolf dreams to skinchanging the cat while she was blind. We've also discussed in the past how Bloodraven/Kurtz may have opened his third eye while in the Black cells.

There seems, in short to be an association of labyrinths [however constructed and whether or not they are now abandoned by their original builders] with the "powers" of darkness. What it says in the World Book is that blindness was necessary to open that third eye and see the hidden truths - just as in far off Asshai seekers after te truth must go up the river [but presumably not on Marlow's steamer] to reach the Heart of Darkness.

BC you bring up something very interesting and to clarify are you proposing that the Labyrinths in this case could have been used for the purpose of some mystical training? I f so i think you are on to something.I haven't been up on current conversations but the moment you said this my mind clicked and i'll draw another real world parallel if you indulge me.Astral projection is one of those skills when you reach the higher order you practice and the process by which one learns to do this is termed in some traditions as "walking the Labyrinth" or going into the Labyrinth which equates path to awaken the third eye. I had to go back in my books on Stral projection for this i knew i read it some where.

OOOOH this is interesting here BC a nice very nice find....Ok so it is a training that states that it is the mind that does the real seeing, just as it does hearing and touching and tasting.All the other parts are just specialized information gathering systems.Soooooo to "see" with the third eye is to skip the other information gathering systems and use the mind directly.

When i was much younger and my mother was going through the process of becoming an Orisha Priestess .Her mentor drew a spiral on the ground that my mother with her help had to walk blind folded until she got to the center.Each step meant putting every physical contraints off.By the time she got there she had to be completely empty her mind that is.She had to lay there for 30 days (fasting) and blind folded at which point she would meet her spirit guide.My mom said she did leave her body was able to see us at home and eventually did meet her guide who told her,her true name which is connected to your gift.

I wonder if the Elder race was running some sort of training to weed out those who were "head blind" no sight from those that did have the sight as the process would force them to truly see.Could the GS have bitten this off fro them?

[Eira Seren]

snip

As always I remain humbled by the erudition brought to this thread in so many ways and also by how over these three years we have managed to maintain a civilized conversation characterized by great good humour, goodwill and ultimately perhaps, friendship.

In his post yesterday Mace thanked me for clicking the POST button three years ago. I have to thank all of you for participating and doing the same to make Heresy what it is.

Thank You

:cheers: Thank you for bringing us all together!

Happy Thanksgiving (and now leftovers) everyone! Winter has arrived here, snow this morning.

BC you bring up something very interesting and to clarify are you proposing that the Labyrinths in this case could have been used for the purpose of some mystical training? I f so i think you are on to something.I haven't been up on current conversations but the moment you said this my mind clicked and i'll draw another real world parallel if you indulge me.Astral projection is one of those skills when you reach the higher order you practice and the process by which one learns to do this is termed in some traditions as "walking the Labyrinth" or going into the Labyrinth which equates path to awaken the third eye. I had to go back in my books on Stral projection for this i knew i read it some where.

OOOOH this is interesting here BC a nice very nice find....Ok so it is a training that states that it is the mind that does the real seeing, just as it does hearing and touching and tasting.All the other parts are just specialized information gathering systems.Soooooo to "see" with the third eye is to skip the other information gathering systems and use the mind directly.

When i was much younger and my mother was going through the process of becoming an Orisha Priestess .Her mentor drew a spiral on the ground that my mother with her help had to walk blind folded until she got to the center.Each step meant putting every physical contraints off.By the time she got there she had to be completely empty her mind that is.She had to lay there for 30 days (fasting) and blind folded at which point she would meet her spirit guide.My mom said she did leave her body was able to see us at home and eventually did meet her guide who told her,her true name which is connected to your gift.

I wonder if the Elder race was running some sort of training to weed out those who were "head blind" no sight from those that did have the sight as the process would force them to truly see.Could the GS have bitten this off fro them?

Could be. Reminds me of the corridors under the House of Black and White, and how Arya is blinded (supposedly as punishment, but more likely for training). That would make Nymeria the spirit guide?

[wolfmaid7]

:cheers: Thank you for bringing us all together!

Happy Thanksgiving (and now leftovers) everyone! Winter has arrived here, snow this morning.

Could be. Reminds me of the corridors under the House of Black and White, and how Arya is blinded (supposedly as punishment, but more likely for training). That would make Nymeria the spirit guide?

That's true.maybe the crypts would serve as Jon's once he finishes that danm dream.

[MaesterSam]

You mean dragons? :devil:

Those would certainly come to mind first. :cool4: Disturbing a sleeping dragon could explain Hardhome (though we do not have an explanation of what might have happened to this dragon after he killed the entire town) and/or the "winged serpent" that Bran, as Summer, sees after Winterfell is burned.

That being said, upon further thought it seems to me that for a complete annihilation of an advanced race, there may have been additional magical weapons involved. The Others come to mind, of course- whether as a weapon, or- look out, new crackpot theory- as the remaining handful of one of the ancient races (not necessarily the maze builders) that fled from the war? Maybe they used magic to adapt to the cold, and went into hibernation to survive the apocalypse... much like the Children moved underground. These survivors then could have used ice magic to start a long winter, wiping out whoever was left after the initial war. The fact that Sam's NW oath is required to allow Bran and co to cross from south to north suggests the Wall may be a defensive structure in either direction. And realistically, nobody in Westeros has any idea how old it really is or who built it.

(Now that I think about it, this idea of the North as a refugee camp raises more questions than answers so I will drop it for now.)

Other potential WMDs could be bioweapons: infectious diseases (the idea is not new- we see it with Garin's curse/greyscale) or.... ghost grass. Maybe it did take over the world once and everyone starved? :dunno:

This might be very crackpot, but at one time I was really fond of the notion that there are firewyrms (like we learn about from the Kindly Man) living in some of the geothermal hotspots in Westeros, and they were responsible for what happened at Hardhome. Furthermore, it was my belief that this is how the Horn of Winter would function--it would wake sleeping 'giants' (firewyrms), summon them to the location of the horn, and cause massive seismic activity beneath the Wall from their burrowing.

In retrospect, of course, the Horn functioning this way would probably make for an awfully slow destruction, unless there's hordes of firewyrms dormant beneath the Wall; also the WB has seemingly confirmed the notion that "wake sleeping giants beneath the earth" is just a fancy Westerosi way of saying earthquake.

This was my initial theory on Hardhome too! The tunnels do suggest firewyrms (except we seem to have tunnels everywhere, so either the wyrms are super widespread or someone/something else is also good at digging) - the main counter argument is that I'm not sure they're fast enough to kill all of Hardhome without leaving a single survivor. A dragon would probably be more efficient. But I do wonder if some are still around somewhere (they also would have been good weapons for the maze builders as they could send them into the other team's maze! In fact, maybe they were bred for this very purpose!? )

This is the sort of thing I have in mind; they are known as the children of the forest, yet we find them living deep underground.

Indeed. Don't the old legends tell of them living in the trees? They don't seem to live in trees - maybe they never did, or maybe they more recently moved underground to make it through the next apocalypse. (To be fair, it was humans who named them children of the forest- they refer to themselves as those who sing the song of earth, so perhaps it's just a translation error?) Regardless, they certainly are well set up to survive whatever may be about to happen up top...

The point of the blinding was sensory deprivation to help open the third eye - as we've seen with Bran, and is suggested by the experience of Arya moving on from wolf dreams to skinchanging the cat while she was blind. We've also discussed in the past how Bloodraven/Kurtz may have opened his third eye while in the Black cells.

There seems, in short to be an association of labyrinths [however constructed and whether or not they are now abandoned by their original builders] with the "powers" of darkness. What it says in the World Book is that blindness was necessary to open that third eye and see the hidden truths - just as in far off Asshai seekers after te truth must go up the river [but presumably not on Marlow's steamer] to reach the Heart of Darkness.

So if it is known (at least by some) that sensory deprivation is necessary to open the third eye... I am tempted to go ahead and assume that the Kindly man is very much aware of Arya's abilities, and promoting them on purpose. She thinks she is fooling him but I would bet that he knows. The Faceless Men seem to be closely related to- if not direct descendants of- the faith of the Blind God, so it seems very likely that for them, too, the purpose of sensory deprivation is to open the third eye. Which means some (most? all?) the FM are skinchangers or something equivalent.

I always felt that Jaqen didn't just happen to give his coin to a cute, feisty girl named Arry/Nan/Weasel- joining the FM is a big deal and I'm sure they carefully research their recruits. Varamyr recognizes Jon as a warg right away, even though Jon has no idea, so Jaqen could have sensed it in Arya as well (or even been in KL for the purpose of picking up a Stark). He then made up the whole scenario of owing her 3 lives to see if her personality is suitable for an assassin- a test she passed with flying colors. It also served to give her a taste of the power of the FM - he even shows off his face-changing ability right in front of her, which I would assume is a no-no for a FM. (I think it has come up before, either here or on another thread- that we have seen nothing in the culture of the FM to suggest that when a life is saved, another must be sacrificed. They also don't pray to the red god but to the Great Other, the god of death, and the people he kills for her are not burned so R'hllor is not getting them regardless. So the whole thing only makes sense if it was a test/temptation for Arya. IMHO.) Sorry, I know this is kind of off topic.. but the WB is making me completely re-evaluate so many things and I always love to hear what others think :wideeyed:

[smashedhalo]

The maze for training is a interesting idea. These maze builders would have had the first empire so their leavings could have be a way to test the locals for potential. If everyone you have in charge has some magical potential the Commons will give over children to be tested to give them a leg up. Historically, a common child could rise high in the church.

Or, in the case of battle island, the foundations to a larger structure.

[smashedhalo]

@MaesterSam one option is that the MB/ancient ones left armouries around their empire. I think they created the Others with all their traits as a bioweapon against Westosi inhabitants. But Valeria rose from goat herders that found the dragon eggs. Say they found them in a armoury that also had tech manuals to recreate their tools i.e. Valerian Steel(effective against Others), glass candles, wildfire, and drago-construction™. The KM tells the story of the first faceless man possibly being a noble owner or overseer of the slaves. This overseer would probably be Valerian yet not a dragon rider. Able to copy down enough spells and tricks from the master tombs before skipping town to bravos.

It's like if a apocalyptic event happened, killed the smart people, X generations down the line coming across blueprints for a rifle, with the raw materials on hand.

[The Snowfyre Chorus]

< snip >

Good post, MaesterSam. Way to synthesize! Lots to consider. I like the idea that all FM might be skinchangers, or 3rd-Eye users of one sort or another...

[Black Crow]

Indeed. Don't the old legends tell of them living in the trees? They don't seem to live in trees - maybe they never did, or maybe they more recently moved underground to make it through the next apocalypse. (To be fair, it was humans who named them children of the forest- they refer to themselves as those who sing the song of earth, so perhaps it's just a translation error?) Regardless, they certainly are well set up to survive whatever may be about to happen up top...

I don't think there's any doubt as to the children living in the forest and I've always imagined their wooden cities as something akin to the "Ewok" village concealed in the upper branches of trees where Thoros and the Brotherhood took Arya - a village that was shortly going to have to be abandoned because the leaves were turning and would soon drop away. I think that originally at least the same may have been true of the children, largely living in the trees but in winter or times of danger disappearing down into their burrows.

Incidentally if you want to take the Ewok comparison a little further although at first sight they appeared cuddly enough to justify a kids' spin off they were actually pretty vicious brutes.

[Black Crow]

So if it is known (at least by some) that sensory deprivation is necessary to open the third eye... I am tempted to go ahead and assume that the Kindly man is very much aware of Arya's abilities, and promoting them on purpose. She thinks she is fooling him but I would bet that he knows. The Faceless Men seem to be closely related to- if not direct descendants of- the faith of the Blind God, so it seems very likely that for them, too, the purpose of sensory deprivation is to open the third eye. Which means some (most? all?) the FM are skinchangers or something equivalent.

I always felt that Jaqen didn't just happen to give his coin to a cute, feisty girl named Arry/Nan/Weasel- joining the FM is a big deal and I'm sure they carefully research their recruits. Varamyr recognizes Jon as a warg right away, even though Jon has no idea, so Jaqen could have sensed it in Arya as well (or even been in KL for the purpose of picking up a Stark). He then made up the whole scenario of owing her 3 lives to see if her personality is suitable for an assassin- a test she passed with flying colors. It also served to give her a taste of the power of the FM - he even shows off his face-changing ability right in front of her, which I would assume is a no-no for a FM. (I think it has come up before, either here or on another thread- that we have seen nothing in the culture of the FM to suggest that when a life is saved, another must be sacrificed. They also don't pray to the red god but to the Great Other, the god of death, and the people he kills for her are not burned so R'hllor is not getting them regardless. So the whole thing only makes sense if it was a test/temptation for Arya. IMHO.) Sorry, I know this is kind of off topic.. but the WB is making me completely re-evaluate so many things and I always love to hear what others think :wideeyed:

:agree:

I agree, and also with the notion of the blindness not only being a training to develop the usual senses but also a test, which she passed by skin-changing the cat. The Kindly Man may or may not have known it was the cat but he must have known she had found other eyes.

As to the face-changing I think that's a different but related skill. Glamours, as we've discussed before, don't involve physical changes but rather play games with the minds of those looking at the performer. Thus the Ugly Girl looked as though her face was bashed in yet when Arya felt her jaw with her tongue all was present and correct.