XSarellaX Posted November 27, 2014 Share Posted November 27, 2014 I'm not playing obtuse. I'm pointing out that both Bael and Rhaegar appear as part of one story. You can't simply separate them in order to justify inconsistent interpretation of common elements. The blue winter rose is a symbol and metaphor that operates within the fictional history of Westeros - a history in which both Bael and (later) Rhaegar exist and play a part. You suggested that Martin is writing at least two different stories -- (1) Bael the bard, and (2) R+L=J -- and that these stories were so different that we should not expect the blue winter rose to represent the same thing in one that it does in the other. I say that doesn't fly. There may be different narrative threads but this is one story Martin is telling, and it's much bigger than "R=L=J". No, I'm not being disingenuous at all. I enjoy disagreement. I don't necessarily believe that R+L=J, but I do enjoy talking about it and reading what others have to say about it. (That's why I come here.) I try hard to post and interact with others respectfully - even when we disagree - and hope others receive and respond to my posts in like manner. I was very honest when I said that I find it surprising so many readers identify Jon as the blue flower (not "blue rose") in Dany's vision - and for the reason I provided: that there are very few (if any) other places in the text where Martin uses the flower metaphor to represent his male characters, and none with respect to the blue rose. Looking back, I certainly include myself as one of those readers I was referring to - until recently I had not considered those two observations in light of one another, and I have certainly identified Jon with Dany's "blue flower" in the past. (Though I am unlikely to connect them in that way moving forward, I think.) It's not that I don't want to see Jon in the symbolism, and refuse to consider it. It's that I viewed it that way before - and have reconsidered it. I do think the simbolism of the blue rose relates more strongly to Lyanna than to Rhaegar, because of the Bael the Bard story, and because Lyanna was "... fond of flowers", and loved the smell of winter roses. So she has a connection to roses that doesn't depend on Rhaegar. But since Jon is her son, and takes so much after her, why can't the rose on the wall be him? The link is obvious (to me anyway). It seems to me you want an exact correlation: roses=x, therefore x is at the wall. But maybe we're supposed to think roses are connected to Lyanna, therefore something/someone connected to Lyanna is at the wall. The rose of the Bael the Bard tale works the same way. It simply connects this story to that of Rhaegar and Lyanna, telling us there are parallels. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kingmonkey Posted November 27, 2014 Share Posted November 27, 2014 J.Stargaryen says: "In Ned's ToJ dream, he sees blue rose petals. The inspiration for which is the crown Rhaegar won, and then gave to Lyanna at HH. People can object to the connection of Rhaegar to the blue roses if they want, however; before they do, they should remember that Rhaegar won the crown of blue roses and gave it to Lyanna. Not sure if it's an important distinction, but aren't there two separate crowns? I thought Rhaegar won the champion's crown, and therefore the right to crown the QoLaB. Given the symbolism of these things, you'd expect there to be two crowns. There are, after all, two people being crowned. No reason to assume that Rhaegar didn't get a QoLaB crown made up out of blue roses specially for Lyanna's sake. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
J. Stargaryen Posted November 27, 2014 Share Posted November 27, 2014 I do think the simbolism of the blue rose relates more strongly to Lyanna than to Rhaegar, because of the Bael the Bard story, and because Lyanna was "... fond of flowers", and loved the smell of winter roses. So she has a connection to roses that doesn't depend on Rhaegar. But since Jon is her son, and takes so much after her, why can't the rose on the wall be him? The link is obvious (to me anyway). It seems to me you want an exact correlation: roses=x, therefore x is at the wall. But maybe we're supposed to think roses are connected to Lyanna, therefore something/someone connected to Lyanna is at the wall. The rose of the Bael the Bard tale works the same way. It simply connects this story to that of Rhaegar and Lyanna, telling us there are parallels. Ned only tells us those things after she died, which was after Rhaegar had given her the crown of winter roses. It seems just as likely to me that the tomboyish Lyanna felt that way because of Rhaegar and the crown he gave her. He was able to connect with her softer side on at least one other occasion that we know of; e.g., "The dragon prince sang a song so sad it made the wolf maid sniffle." Not sure if it's an important distinction, but aren't there two separate crowns? I thought Rhaegar won the champion's crown, and therefore the right to crown the QoLaB. Given the symbolism of these things, you'd expect there to be two crowns. There are, after all, two people being crowned. No reason to assume that Rhaegar didn't get a QoLaB crown made up out of blue roses specially for Lyanna's sake. I was under the impression that there was only one crown. If it turns out I'm mistaken, I don't think it will make a big difference. Lyanna's roses are still from Rhaegar. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ygrain Posted November 27, 2014 Share Posted November 27, 2014 There is just one crown at a tourney, the champion is not crowned. ETA for spelling. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BearQueen87 Posted November 27, 2014 Author Share Posted November 27, 2014 So we're still talking about blue flowers? Mostly J. Star, Ygrain, and the other fine people here are answering Snowfyre but I did want to touch on something said in the post that started this back on page 1. Flower = feminine symbol. I take no issue with that. Flowers are mostly assigned to females, I agree--especially with the idea of deflowering, which is an act of a man and a woman and certainly what Rhaegar did to Lyanna in order to conceive Jon. But, I digress for a moment. Ok, so why I have ZERO issue with Jon being symbolized by a "female symbol" Balance. Of course Jon is symoblized by a female symbol. It's all about balance. He is the fire and the ice, the blood of the First Men and the blood of Old Valyria, he is north and south, dragon and wolf. It's all about balance with Mr. Snow. So the fact that he, a male character, is symbolized by what we might term a female symbol, is just more of that "all things in balance" for Jon. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jon Weirgaryen Posted November 27, 2014 Share Posted November 27, 2014 Which means quite some work! Ow, now you make it look bad. :( Flower = feminine symbol. I have no troubles with your argument. Only - the rose as a dynastic symbol also exists in the area I am from, and it is a sign of immense wealth and power as it is. Connecting it to femininity had never occurred to me :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
XSarellaX Posted November 27, 2014 Share Posted November 27, 2014 So we're still talking about blue flowers? Mostly J. Star, Ygrain, and the other fine people here are answering Snowfyre but I did want to touch on something said in the post that started this back on page 1. Flower = feminine symbol. I take no issue with that. Flowers are mostly assigned to females, I agree--especially with the idea of deflowering, which is an act of a man and a woman and certainly what Rhaegar did to Lyanna in order to conceive Jon. But, I digress for a moment. Ok, so why I have ZERO issue with Jon being symbolized by a "female symbol" Balance. Of course Jon is symoblized by a female symbol. It's all about balance. He is the fire and the ice, the blood of the First Men and the blood of Old Valyria, he is north and south, dragon and wolf. It's all about balance with Mr. Snow. So the fact that he, a male character, is symbolized by what we might term a female symbol, is just more of that "all things in balance" for Jon. I don't think Jon is currently the balance between north and south, dragon and wolf right now. He has the potential to be those things... I'm not disagreeing with you by the way, I'm just speculating :) After de Ides of Marsh, I expect him to spend some time in Ghost, learn more about the Others, and become more immersed in his Northern side. Maybe he needs to fully awaken his magical Stark side to be able to access the powers of his Valyrian blood. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rhaenys_Targaryen Posted November 27, 2014 Share Posted November 27, 2014 Ow, now you make it look bad. :(No, no, it's fun :) :D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BearQueen87 Posted November 27, 2014 Author Share Posted November 27, 2014 I don't think Jon is currently the balance between north and south, dragon and wolf right now. He has the potential to be those things... I'm not disagreeing with you by the way, I'm just speculating :) After de Ides of Marsh, I expect him to spend some time in Ghost, learn more about the Others, and become more immersed in his Northern side. Maybe he needs to fully awaken his magical Stark side to be able to access the powers of his Valyrian blood. Oh no, I agree..right now he's Jon Snow the idea of balance of heavily foreshadowed but not manifested. I'm speaking more about Jon's overall mythological importance. And I more or less agree with your second point--he's totally in Ghost and will do some learnin' about the Others which I believe necessitates learning about the Starks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sj4iy Posted November 27, 2014 Share Posted November 27, 2014 Not sure how to verify that. How did you find out?Until the story says they were at the Wall, there's no reason to believe that they were. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
UnmaskedLurker Posted November 27, 2014 Share Posted November 27, 2014 Oh no, I agree..right now he's Jon Snow the idea of balance of heavily foreshadowed but not manifested. I'm speaking more about Jon's overall mythological importance. And I more or less agree with your second point--he's totally in Ghost and will do some learnin' about the Others which I believe necessitates learning about the Starks. Wait? So now you agree with me that when Jon is in Ghost he will travel North of the Wall and "spy" on the Other? I thought that was one of our only areas of disagreement? Have you come around on that issue or am I misunderstanding? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BearQueen87 Posted November 27, 2014 Author Share Posted November 27, 2014 Wait? So now you agree with me that when Jon is in Ghost he will travel North of the Wall and "spy" on the Other? I thought that was one of our only areas of disagreement? Have you come around on that issue or am I misunderstanding? Very much believe that Jon is inside Ghost....and I think he'll learn some stuff, whether it's by traveling north or not.... :dunno: I think it's possible, certainly, but I also think Ghost Puppy needs to stay close to Mel and Val can restore him. It's like 50/50 lol! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BearQueen87 Posted November 27, 2014 Author Share Posted November 27, 2014 Until the story says they were at the Wall, there's no reason to believe that they were. Pretty sure Rhaegar at least was never at the Wall given that he and Aemon were only ever communicating by letter and there would be public knowledge of the crown prince going to the Wall. And if Lyanna, the "kidnapped" daughter of the Northern lord was at the wall...someone would know and tell Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sj4iy Posted November 27, 2014 Share Posted November 27, 2014 Very much believe that Jon is inside Ghost....and I think he'll learn some stuff, whether it's by traveling north or not.... :dunno: I think it's possible, certainly, but I also think Ghost Puppy needs to stay close to Mel and Val can restore him. It's like 50/50 lol! What if Jon goes to Winterfell via Ghost? Into the crypts? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Snowfyre Chorus Posted November 27, 2014 Share Posted November 27, 2014 Until the story says they were at the Wall, there's no reason to believe that they were.Nor is there any way of being sure they'd never been there.But you're getting ahead things, a bit. It's not clear that the "wall of ice" in this vision is the same as the Wall of ice we've all come to know and love. And the blue rose doesn't represent Rhaegar, anyway.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BearQueen87 Posted November 27, 2014 Author Share Posted November 27, 2014 What if Jon goes to Winterfell via Ghost? Into the crypts? I think that's also a pretty big possibility. We know something is drawing him there. Nor is there any way of being sure they'd never been there.But you're getting ahead things, a bit. It's not clear that the "wall of ice" in this vision is the same as the Wall of ice we've all come to know and love. And the blue rose doesn't represent Rhaegar, anyway.. You think there is another giant wall of ice somewhere on Planetos? ETA: actually asking, no sarcasm. After the 5 Forts section in the World Book, I'm curious. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sj4iy Posted November 27, 2014 Share Posted November 27, 2014 Nor is there any way of being sure they'd never been there. There's also no way to prove that Ned wasn't running around as Superman at night. But you're getting ahead things, a bit. It's not clear that the "wall of ice" in this vision is the same as the Wall of ice we've all come to know and love. And the blue rose doesn't represent Rhaegar, anyway. The wall of ice in the visions is the Wall. Again, pedantry means nothing unless there's proof of an alternate explanation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BearQueen87 Posted November 27, 2014 Author Share Posted November 27, 2014 There's also no way to prove that Ned wasn't running around as Superman at night.The wall of ice in the visions is the Wall. Again, pedantry means nothing unless there's proof of an alternate explanation. I normally don't use the Show as a benchmark, but in Show! Dany's vision, it's clearly our Wall in the North Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mithras Posted November 27, 2014 Share Posted November 27, 2014 I normally don't use the Show as a benchmark, but in Show! Dany's vision, it's clearly our Wall in the North And the North of the Wall is afterlife for Dany ;) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BearQueen87 Posted November 27, 2014 Author Share Posted November 27, 2014 And the North of the Wall is afterlife for Dany ;) Oh go back to your Jon shrine..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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