R+L=J v.116

[markg171]

Yes, but you did not read the entirety of the post. Kings and Lords. Not just Joffrey because he is king has the right to give Sansa away. Lords have the right to give their 'wards' away in marriage, too.

Jon is the Lord Commander of the Night's Watch and Alys became a 'ward' of the Night's Watch when she sought refuge there... Hence, Jon had the right to give Alys away. In a way, what Alys did was to submit herself to Jon's authority and to reject her grand-uncle's authority....

In any case, Lyanna was Rhaegar's 'prisoner' whether she agreed to be or not; and that made her Rhaegar's 'ward'; or Lord Whent's 'ward'; and imo, that made their authority the only one required to seal the marriage. Young high born girls have no legal authority over themselves, after all, even if their consent is preferable.

Nothing says that a marriage sealed in the absence of the bride's father/kin would be invalid, or that no one could give the bride away. It's just that without their consent, a marriage is likely to be contested -- and that's probably going to happen to Alys when she return to Karhold.

Contesting a marriage that has been consummated, seems rather difficult in Westeros and is certainly more complicated than to marry -- or prevent a marriage altogether.

I read the entirety of the post, just that I can't think of any instance where it's occurred where just any old Lord stepped in and gave away the bride, without them being the King. My point was that in essence, even if they don't call it such, Jon is King of the Night's Watch in that he rules absolutely and swears fealty to no one. So perhaps he's able to perform marriages as such. Also, the laws of gods and men end at the wall. Jon doesn't have to obey the laws of the realm.

So I don't believe anybody could have stepped in and given away Lyanna, especially when her father was still alive when she was kidnapped (and stormed KL in protest so he most certainly did not approve), when Ned was still alive and the "Father" of the House Stark (and fighting to get her back), and Aerys was alive and never gave her away nor validated the marriage.

[finger]

Rhaegar set out with six companions, per the World Book. However, that doesn't mean they were all still with him when he came upon Lyanna, let alone when they went to the Tower of Joy. Hightower was not necessarily part of that six who went with Rhaegar, as he was sent from King's Landing by Aerys to find Rhaegar since Rhaegar had gone missing. There's something, in the app I believe, that says that Whent and Dayne were with Rhaegar when he "kidnapped" Lyanna. It's plausible that the group split in two at some point in Rhaegar's journey, with only Whent and Dayne staying with Rhaegar. Some have proposed that this second group went back to King's Landing and that Brandon Stark followed them thinking that Rhaegar was with them, which is why he went to the Red Keep expecting Rhaegar there. Rhaegar, Whent and Dayne (and Lyanna, of course) would be the only ones who went to the Tower of Joy.

That still, of course, doesn't tell us how Hightower came upon Rhaegar and the others, nor how Ned found his way to the Tower of Joy. One suspect is Ashara Dayne. The idea being that any supplies or servants or other support the group at the Tower of Joy got would likely have made their way there from Starfall and that Ashara was an accomplice

As for who the rest of Rhaegar's six companions are (the last four, that is), there's been speculation that the World Book pointing out Rhaegar's supporters at court earlier in the same section was no coincidence. That list includes Myles Mooton, Jon Connington, Richard Lonmouth and Lewyn Martell (as well as Arthur Dayne).

Allow me to respectfully disagree.

When GRRM says there were six of them, not some or whatever, I tend to thing it's a clue, so it must have some hidden meaning.

I don't think there's any doubt that Hightower wasn't among them. He came later "to fetch Rhaegar".

Seven went to look for Lyanna and seven attacked the ToJ when Ned arrived.

I guess seven had left the ToJ before. Some suspects: Tom O'Sevens, Lem, Marwin, Ashara Dayne.

The rest is mostly speculation, but I do enjoy it, I confess.

[Ser Leftwich]

So when Sansa was 'kidnapped' and given away by some stranger, as far as Sansa's family is concerned Joffrey is nobody not a king, that is a legal marriage? But because Lyanna was not given away (read as "sold") by the right person, it is not legal? Laughable.

As with all things in Westeros, what is 'legal' is what persons in power can enforce.

(Also, no one has addressed the Theon-giving-away-fArya incident.)

[The Red Widow of Coldmoat]

Allow me to respectfully disagree.

When GRRM says there were six of them, not some or whatever, I tend to thing it's a clue, so it must have some hidden meaning.

I don't think there's any doubt that Hightower wasn't among them. He came later "to fetch Rhaegar".

Seven went to look for Lyanna and seven attacked the ToJ when Ned arrived.

I guess seven had left the ToJ before. Some suspects: Tom O'Sevens, Lem, Marwin, Ashara Dayne.

The rest is mostly speculation, but I do enjoy it, I confess.

The six who Rhaegar set off with were among his closest friends and confidants. On what are you basing the idea that Tom O'Sevens or Lem (unless he's Richard Lonmouth) or Marwyn ever even met Rhaegar let alone were his close companions? It feels like you're leaning towards candidates based on their placement in the current story and ability to tell us things, rather than whether they have any sort of association with Rhaegar.

There's still nothing indicating that any of those people were still with Rhaegar when he came upon Lyanna, though. The text says that Rhaegar set off with those six companions, the journey eventually led Rhaegar back to the riverlands (it specifically says "him" not "them") and then Rhaegar went off with Lyanna near Harrenhal. That doesn't mean any of those people necessarily stuck around on his trip.

[finger]

If you recall, I have proposed a similar scenario, as well - that the KG would still be doing their job if they were protecting Jon by keeping his existence secret, it would not require for him to be personally present. All it took would be the KG not let anyone see Lyanna (to prevent them from finding out that she had given birth) and not draw attention by their presence to a place they were not supposed to be.

Lyanna's brother was not "anyone".

In fact, the save and raised Jon.

You can do better.

[The Snowfyre Chorus]

Then what does it mean? And keep in mind HOW that crown was given to Lyanna. Placed in her lap by Rhaegar's lance point.

Could it be a sign of disrespect, in the sense that Rhaegar was unwilling to handle the crown himself or place it on Lyanna's head in person - but instead dumped the thing in her lap with a 10 foot pole, and left her to put it on herself? :dunno:

[wolfmaid7]

I think a few possiblities exist with regard to motives and reasons for Rheagar doing what he did.

Yes there is phallic symbolism with Rheagar dipping his Lance tip in her lap,but in a lot of ancient cultures to do so was considered un heroic and a sign of disrespect.I added a book below that talks about this abit from a few cultures. Its kind of like pissing on another man's territory.We should take into consideration that there was some political slight being done or Rheagar may not have truly been aware of what he did.I mean why did Brandon think he disrespected his sister,why was Robert pissed off later.The book i put below is one such that has revelations into things like that.Again This is my understanding of that custom i don't know if there's another.Again another way looking at it.

Unheroic Conduct: The Rise of Heterosexuality and the Invention of the invention of the Jewish man.

By Daniel Boyarin

[finger]

The six who Rhaegar set off with were among his closest friends and confidants. On what are you basing the idea that Tom O'Sevens or Lem (unless he's Richard Lonmouth) or Marwyn ever even met Rhaegar let alone were his close companions? It feels like you're leaning towards candidates based on their placement in the current story and ability to tell us things, rather than whether they have any sort of association with Rhaegar.

There's still nothing indicating that any of those people were still with Rhaegar when he came upon Lyanna, though. The text says that Rhaegar set off with those six companions, the journey eventually led Rhaegar back to the riverlands (it specifically says "him" not "them") and then Rhaegar went off with Lyanna near Harrenhal. That doesn't mean any of those people necessarily stuck around on his trip.

We're always discussing lesser details. He set off with six when there was little danger; he must have kept some when at war.

Yes, probably Lem is Lonmouth. Tom O'Sevens is his friend (please, notice the clue). Bulldog Marwin reminds me the White Bull,.. And, besides, I said "suspects". And, who cares?

The relevant thing is that most people say the three KGs were protecting Jon, AND THEY HAD DISPATCHED THEIR TROOPS!!!!

Were they a bunch or of fucking morons? Or it is the story that begs some elaboration.

Eta. Actually, Marwin was called the mastiff. Anyway, I guess you get the point.

There also were squires.

[Greymoon]

Could it be a sign of disrespect, in the sense that Rhaegar was unwilling to handle the crown himself or place it on Lyanna's head in person - but instead dumped the thing in her lap with a 10 foot pole, and left her to put it on herself? :dunno:

How would a knight in a real tourney have pulled it off? the knight is seated upon a horse, wearing armor. Sweating like... a dragon...holding up a 10 foot pole with a tired arm and a battered shield plus the horse's reins. The public is seated above him, most likely.

...does the knight unhorse? if he did, he'd risk falling off ungracefully, with the lance, the shield, the armor and tiredness. I say, best to stay atop the horse and pretend it's all part of the plan. Because even if Rhaegar'd managed to unhorse gracefully, he'd have had to walk up to Lyanna, up toward her brothers and possibly through other people to reach her. Subtle that.

This is a big tourney. I doubt it was like in Kingslanding where Sansa was conveniently seated up front so Loras could give her a flower. Sansa was the Hand's daughter, so of course she'd have a privileged seat. the tourney was in Ned's honor. Nothing is so certain about Lyanna and where she was seated.

So, he didn't unhorse, was too tired and too smelly anyway -- would have fallen right off, the 'champion' -- and he placed the laurel in her lap, because it's right hard to crown someone with a 10 foot pole. Imagine he'd have pocked her in the eye with it. Smooth.

I think what Rhaegar did was no more, no less, but customary. I don't think it was a strange and peculiar gesture in universe. Though GRRM probably had something particular in mind with that imagery.

[wolfmaid7]

How would a knight in a real tourney have pulled it off? the knight is seated upon a horse, wearing armor. Sweating like... a dragon...holding up a 10 foot pole with a tired arm and a battered shield plus the horse's reins. The public is seated above him, most likely.

...does the knight unhorse? if he did, he'd risk falling off ungracefully, with the lance, the shield, the armor and tiredness. I say, best to stay atop the horse and pretend it's all part of the plan. Because even if Rhaegar'd managed to unhorse gracefully, he'd have had to walk up to Lyanna, up toward her brothers and possibly through other people to reach her. Subtle that.

This is a big tourney. I doubt it was like in Kingslanding where Sansa was conveniently seated up front so Loras could give her a flower. Sansa was the Hand's daughter, so of course she'd have a privileged seat. the tourney was in Ned's honor. Nothing is so certain about Lyanna and where she was seated.

So, he didn't unhorse, was too tired and too smelly anyway -- would have fallen right off, the 'champion' -- and he placed the laurel in her lap, because it's right hard to crown someone with a 10 foot pole. Imagine he'd have pocked her in the eye with it. Smooth.

I think what Rhaegar did was no more, no less, but customary. I don't think it was a strange and peculiar gesture in universe. Though GRRM probably had something particular in mind with that imagery.

i have a question though,if it was customary( in universe) why did all the smiles drop,why did ( according to the WB) Brandon think Rheagar insulted his sister?

I understand it a little if she was unspoken for or Rheagar's wife. What is the motive for doing what was and would be seen as disrespectful to the Northern Lords in particular.

As to how he would have pulled it off,called a squire over to help.You know hold his lance,help him get off the horse maybe :dunno:

[The Snowfyre Chorus]

i have a question though,if it was customary( in universe) why did all the smiles drop,why did ( according to the WB) Brandon think Rheagar insulted his sister?

See my last two posts on the meaning behind the blue rose, the crown, and the Song of the Winter Rose...

[Greymoon]

i have a question though,if it was customary( in universe) why did all the smiles drop,why did ( according to the WB) Brandon think Rheagar insulted his sister?

officially, I was under the impression that the smiles dropped because Lyanna was betrothed to Robert, and Rhaegar married to Elia. Rhaegar crowning Lyanna was insulting enough, no? It places Lyanna in a difficult position -- or casts her as 'cheap'. And it insults Elia and Robert.

[BearQueen87]

Could it be a sign of disrespect, in the sense that Rhaegar was unwilling to handle the crown himself or place it on Lyanna's head in person - but instead dumped the thing in her lap with a 10 foot pole, and left her to put it on herself? :dunno:

What do you think I'm going to say?

No, I don't think it was a sign of disrespect on Rhaegar's part. It's GRRM saying "there will be another lance and lap interaction soon"

I think R was acknowledging L's role at the KotLT. It's respect and understanding that she was brave and willful and did something good and even though the public knowing L was the KotLT would be a death sentence for her, he wants her to know that he respects what she did.

[wolfmaid7]

See my last two posts on the meaning behind the blue rose, the crown, and the Song of the Winter Rose...

Will do.

officially, I was under the impression that the smiles dropped because Lyanna was betrothed to Robert, and Rhaegar married to Elia. Rhaegar crowning Lyanna was insulting enough, no? It places Lyanna in a difficult position -- or casts her as 'cheap'. And it insults Elia and Robert.

I thought so too.......Smooth Rheagar very smooth.

[Ser Leftwich]

i have a question though,if it was customary( in universe) why did all the smiles drop,why did ( according to the WB) Brandon think Rheagar insulted his sister?

There are two different questions being debated: 1) the method of giving the crown/laurel (using the lance or handing it to her after dismounting) and 2) the appropriateness (or inappropriateness) of Rhaegar, who is married, giving the crown/laurel to an unmarried woman/girl and not to his own wife.

The smiles probably died because of the second one. And, frankly, the first question seems like nothing.

[wolfmaid7]

What do you think I'm going to say?

No, I don't think it was a sign of disrespect on Rhaegar's part. It's GRRM saying "there will be another lance and lap interaction soon"

I think R was acknowledging L's role at the KotLT. It's respect and understanding that she was brave and willful and did something good and even though the public knowing L was the KotLT would be a death sentence for her, he wants her to know that he respects what she did.

Oh wait i must have missed that.....Did Rheagar find the KOTLT? Was it inferred that he did? I'm asking honestly.

[PrettyPig]

What are the lessons communicated through this wildling tale (be it song or history), that Jon rejects so firmly out of hand? I see at least three. The first (1) is that Starks are no better than wildlings - they share the same blood. The second (2) is that Starks are kinslayers, and hated by the gods. And the third (3) is that the rivalry of House Bolton was justifiably inflicted on the Starks by the old gods, as punishment for their kinslaying. Given that House Stark traces its family history back 8,000 years, to the founding of the Wall and the Night's Watch... and given that Starks have, for long years, forgotten the original purpose of the Wall and the Night's Watch, instead identifying the wildlings as their true and despised enemy... I think it's more than reasonable to think Winterfell might take offense to the Song of the Winter Rose.

Clearly, the Starks themselves have an interest in discouraging repetition of this tale (and all that it implies) south of the Wall. A public performance of the tale by the crown prince, of all people, at the greatest tourney in living memory, during a time when House Stark sought to increase its standing among the noble houses of Westeros... well, that might come across as particularly insulting. No wonder "all the smiles died" (including, one must assume, Lyanna Stark's).

...

A good question, I think, and worth pursuing rather than dismissing. Given the above (and assuming that Rhaegar knew the song) I find it terrifically difficult to think that - when he dumped this blue rose crown in Lyanna's lap - Rhaegar could have believed he was communicating something pointedly personal to Lyanna, without also communicating something pointedly political to House Stark (and its allies) that would completely overshadow and taint that personal message.

Also, in this context, I think it's worth highlighting the fact that we have no evidence Rhaegar himself had any choice in the matter of which flowers were used for the making of the QoLaB's laurel. We can only assume, I think, that had Barristan Selmy won the tournament, then whoever he'd named QoLaB would have received the same crown. The only choice we know was Rhaegar's to make was the choice he faced after the blue rose crown was his to give away. It's possible that the crown prince simply chose that public moment to declare his personal affection for a betrothed woman who was not his wife - because he'd heard she loved the scent of winter roses, and he was throwing his cares to the wind. But if we recognize that the purpose of the Harrenhal tourney was political to begin with, and we suspect that Rhaegar was in the thick of negotiations and arguments taking place behind the scenes over issues of power and political alliances... then prioritizing the personal, romantic aspect of the blue rose crown - as if all he'd done was to hand the Stark girl a flower - starts to look a little naive.

Well said. I completely agree that the laurel served as a political message, but I waffle on a couple of points.

(First, I am operating on the assumption that Rhaegar knew the history of the BWRs. As a talented harpist that loved to lounge under the stars and sing about dead kings, there is absolutely no way in all seven hells that Rhaegar did NOT know the Bael story through song.)

One: The BWRs could have certainly stood on their own as a symbol of Whent's wealth, and the QoLaB - whoever she may have turned out to be - would have received that garland regardless. Ashara could have returned to KL with some pretty blue flowers to compensate for her dishonoring, I guess. However, if you dismiss the BWRs as merely an ostentatious display, it's certainly interesting that Rhaegar went to such effort to win the tourney and give the laurel to the one female in the crowd for whom the BWRs would have historical significance.

Two: if you believe that the tourney was merely a screen for Rhaegar's deeper political machinations, then it isn't unreasonable that Rhaegar would have requested Whent commission a garland of these particular flowers...in other words, a PLANNED message, a signal to the Starks (see historical significance). But, the one Stark that was supposedly hip-deep in the game of thrones wasn't at the tourney. Sure, Rickard's kids were all there, but....? Was Rhaegar all like, "Yeah, I'll give her the crown anyway, someone will figure it out." According to the World Book all the kids (and Robert) took it as an insult, but we don't know how deeply embroiled the kids were in Rickard's politics. Was this supposed to a good message that was interpreted incorrectly, perhaps purposely? The one person present who may have been in the thick of Southron Ambitions was Jon Arryn. Was this a signal to him?

Three: I find it very, very interesting that this laurel was constructed of these beautiful rare flowers .... that had not been stripped of their thorns. If we're going to talk about phallic imagery with the lance in the lap and whatnot (which for the record I don't buy), I think we should also take a look at the glaring symbolism of giving a girl that you are now supposedly smitten with a crown of hidden thorns. Jesus received one as a sign of mockery, a slap to his claim to authority, before he is crucified as a substitutionary sacrifice. That's a hell of a message - the question remains, though, was Rhaegar sending it, and was he doing it deliberately?

[BearQueen87]

Oh wait i must have missed that.....Did Rheagar find the KOTLT? Was it inferred that he did? I'm asking honestly.

I believe he did. We know Aerys sent out the men to hunt down the knight because the king feared he was an "enemy." I believe that R found Lyanna and her armor/shield and made her promise to put it away for her own safety, but was deeply impressed by what she did that day. So he decided to honor her.

I suppose you can say it was inferred by me (and others, I'm not alone in my insanity :) ) by the mere crowning. Officially...we gotta wait.

[wolfmaid7]

There are two different questions being debated: 1) the method of giving the crown/laurel (using the lance or handing it to her after dismounting) and 2) the appropriateness (or inappropriateness) of Rhaegar, who is married, giving the crown/laurel to an unmarried woman/girl and not to his own wife.

The smiles probably died because of the second one. And, frankly, the first question seems like nothing

I wouldn't say the first question is nothing it goes to his motive and what he was saying by doing that action.Was he achknowledging her for something as Bearqueen states can that be proven with atlease little clues ( i don't know about that) or was it a political dig toward the Stark/Baratheon alliance through said marraige.. :dunno:

[wolfmaid7]

Well said. I completely agree that the laurel served as a political message, but I waffle on a couple of points.

(First, I am operating on the assumption that Rhaegar knew the history of the BWRs. As a talented harpist that loved to lounge under the stars and sing about dead kings, there is absolutely no way in all seven hells that Rhaegar did NOT know the Bael story through song.)

One: The BWRs could have certainly stood on their own as a symbol of Whent's wealth, and the QoLaB - whoever she may have turned out to be - would have received that garland regardless. Ashara could have returned to KL with some pretty blue flowers to compensate for her dishonoring, I guess. However, if you dismiss the BWRs as merely an ostentatious display, it's certainly interesting that Rhaegar went to such effort to win the tourney and give the laurel to the one female in the crowd for whom the BWRs would have historical significance.

Two: if you believe that the tourney was merely a screen for Rhaegar's deeper political machinations, then it isn't unreasonable that Rhaegar would have requested Whent commission a garland of these particular flowers...in other words, a PLANNED message, a signal to the Starks (see historical significance). But, the one Stark that was supposedly hip-deep in the game of thrones wasn't at the tourney. Sure, Rickard's kids were all there, but....? Was Rhaegar all like, "Yeah, I'll give her the crown anyway, someone will figure it out." According to the World Book all the kids (and Robert) took it as an insult, but we don't know how deeply embroiled the kids were in Rickard's politics. Was this supposed to a good message that was interpreted incorrectly, perhaps purposely? The one person present who may have been in the thick of Southron Ambitions was Jon Arryn. Was this a signal to him?

Three: I find it very, very interesting that this laurel was constructed of these beautiful rare flowers .... that had not been stripped of their thorns. If we're going to talk about phallic imagery with the lance in the lap and whatnot (which for the record I don't buy), I think we should also take a look at the glaring symbolism of giving a girl that you are now supposedly smitten with a crown of hidden thorns. Jesus received one as a sign of mockery, a slap to his claim to authority, before he is crucified as a substitutionary sacrifice. That's a hell of a message - the question remains, though, was Rhaegar sending it, and was he doing it deliberately?

I'm guessing Rheagar committed such a Faux pas ,that it didn't matter if he was there or not. Tounges were going to wag.Starting with Brandon who probably gave him an ear full.So message would still have been sent.

I believe he did. We know Aerys sent out the men to hunt down the knight because the king feared he was an "enemy." I believe that R found Lyanna and her armor/shield and made her promise to put it away for her own safety, but was deeply impressed by what she did that day. So he decided to honor her.

I suppose you can say it was inferred by me (and others, I'm not alone in my insanity :) ) by the mere crowning. Officially...we gotta wait.

As i said i must have missed that inferance that he found her...To save me the trouble may i ask what was it.What was the clue that he found her.I know Aerys sent out the men to find her and they didn't i'm trying to envision exactly what was inference that Rheagar found her.

Again the crowing to take a different tact could have been political instead of romantic.