R+L=J v.116

[Ser Leftwich]

I wouldn't say the first question is nothing it goes to his motive and what he was saying by doing that action.Was he achknowledging her for something as Bearqueen states can that be proven with atlease little clues ( i don't know about that) or was it a political dig toward the Stark/Baratheon alliance through said marraige.. :dunno:

1) How could it be interpreted as political dig? (I don't get how the method is insulting.)

2) What does Rhaegar have against the Starks and/or Baratheons?

[BearQueen87]

I wouldn't say the first question is nothing it goes to his motive and what he was saying by doing that action.Was he achknowledging her for something as Bearqueen states can that be proven with atlease little clues ( i don't know about that) or was it a political dig toward the Stark/Baratheon alliance through said marraige.. :dunno:

Given that R was trying to take down his father, I don't know that R would do something like insult a Stark/Baratheon alliance like that. He is going to need both houses and their bannermen if he is to remove Aerys. At this time (HH) R is focused on taking down The Mad King, but hasn't yet decided to run off with Lyanna. So I don't think he's going to throw away his plans for a quick dig at a marriage alliance involving a girl he just met and hasn't, so far as we know, made the decision to go off with her.

As i said i must have missed that inferance that he found her...To save me the trouble may i ask what was it.What was the clue that he found her.I know Aerys sent out the men to find her and they didn't i'm trying to envision exactly what was inference that Rheagar found her.

Again the crowing to take a different tact could have been political instead of romantic.

I guess you're asking for some sort of textual hint that leads me to believe R found L. Outside of finding the shield, but no knight, and R actually crowning her, I don't have one. The crowning to me is not romantic nor political--at least not in the way I think you're saying romantic and political. I don't think R fell in love with L right when he found her. And I don't think he was digging at the marriage alliance (see above). It's "romantic" in that he's letting Lyanna be acknowledged for her role as KotLT and the honor she displayed but can't be talked about publicly and it's "political" in that he's defying his father by not presenting the KotLT to the king.

[markg171]

i have a question though,if it was customary( in universe) why did all the smiles drop,why did ( according to the WB) Brandon think Rheagar insulted his sister?

I understand it a little if she was unspoken for or Rheagar's wife. What is the motive for doing what was and would be seen as disrespectful to the Northern Lords in particular.

As to how he would have pulled it off,called a squire over to help.You know hold his lance,help him get off the horse maybe :dunno:

Brandon is described as having the wolf's blood in him, in that he'll act irrationally and without thinking. So there's that possibility.

The other possibility is that it could be seen that he's naming her some kind of slut? Lyanna was betrothed to Robert and Rhaegar himself was already married. The fact that he's naming her his love and beauty could be seen to be suggesting that he's cheating on his wife, and that Lyanna is cheating on Robert. Add that to the fact that Rhaegar did it in front of every lord and knight that matters in Westoros, so everyone of note saw that and could possibly have come to this conclusion as well. Calling someone a slut, especially when she's supposed to be a maiden bride for one of the Lords Paramount, would be a huge insult, especially as he did it in public. Not only that, but Robert could chose to rightfully break off the betrothal, and no one might want to ever marry her. So he'd certainly be right to come to the conclusion that Rhaegar insulted Lyanna

[The Twinslayer]

So why is that Gilly isn't ever described as being in a bed of blood? How come Craster remembers he had a wife once who popped them out like it was nothing?

Apart from the references to Lyanna, references to childbirth are "bloody bed" (Mirri Maaz Duur), "birthing room" (Cersei), and "beds of blood and pain" (Damphair).

Aside from birth, imagery around beds and blood seems to be associated with flowering, violent death and the wedding night.

From ACOK:

When she threw back the blanket and saw the blood ...she rushed back to the bed and stared in horror at the dark red stain and the tale it told...She pulled the torn sheet from the bed, and the stained blanket as well ... Then she realized that the blood had soaked through the sheet into the featherbed ... the bedclothes were burnt, but by the time they carried her off her thighs were bloody again ... "The blood frightened me"..."The blood is the seal of your womanhood. Lady Catelyn might have prepared you. You've had your first flowering, no more."

The scene in Feast where Cersei finds Shae's body:

She strode to the bed, flung aside the heap of bloody coverlets, and there she was, naked, cold and pink...

From Cersei, about Renly's marriage bed:

"Did you chance to see the marriage bed the morning after?" Cersei asked. "Did she bleed?"

[wolfmaid7]

Given that R was trying to take down his father, I don't know that R would do something like insult a Stark/Baratheon alliance like that. He is going to need both houses and their bannermen if he is to remove Aerys. At this time (HH) R is focused on taking down The Mad King, but hasn't yet decided to run off with Lyanna. So I don't think he's going to throw away his plans for a quick dig at a marriage alliance involving a girl he just met and hasn't, so far as we know, made the decision to go off with her.

I guess you're asking for some sort of textual hint that leads me to believe R found L. Outside of finding the shield, but no knight, and R actually crowning her, I don't have one. The crowning to me is not romantic nor political--at least not in the way I think you're saying romantic and political. I don't think R fell in love with L right when he found her. And I don't think he was digging at the marriage alliance (see above). It's "romantic" in that he's letting Lyanna be acknowledged for her role as KotLT and the honor she displayed but can't be talked about publicly and it's "political" in that he's defying his father by not presenting the KotLT to the king.

This is my thing though about human behavior and why this situation reeks.He was trying to take down his father true,but what he did at the tourney did insult the Starks and house Baratheon.So his intentions and what actually happened is two different things.I doubt he was glib not to realize BearQueen( love the name by the way) that his actions couldn't have anything else but a rotten end.

To me the crowning was more political than romantic because i don't see anything that says he found the KOTLT. Its kind of a round where to proove that him crowning her is predicated on him finding her which there's no proof of.You see where i'm getting at.At lease in my opinion.

[The Snowfyre Chorus]

What do you think I'm going to say?

You're right. I was just having a little fun... :)

[BearQueen87]

1.This is my thing though about human behavior and why this situation reeks.He was trying to take down his father true,but what he did at the tourney did insult the Starks and house Baratheon.So his intentions and what actually happened is two different things.

2A.I doubt he was glib not to realize BearQueen( love the name by the way)

2B. that his actions couldn't have anything else but a rotten end.

3.To me the crowning was more political than romantic because i don't see anything that says he found the KOTLT. Its kind of a round where to proove that him crowning her is predicated on him finding her which there's no proof of.You see where i'm getting at.At lease in my opinion.

1. So, I do agree that might not have been the smartest decision in the world. R thought it was a noble thing to do because otherwise L wouldn't get any sort of acknowledgment of her bravery. But i also think R thought it would just "blow over;" Lyanna wasn't part of his plans and even though both Brandon and Ned, (though more quietly) weren't happy, they aren't the Lord of Winterfell at the end of the day. Rickard is absent (and that's suspicious...) so I sorta wonder if Rhaegar, who from the WB seems quiet politically adept, didn't think that this would be a thing to be angry about in the moment and then just "move on" and that Aerys was so bad that the King's atrocities trump what R did.

2A. Thanks!

2B. Like I said, the rotten end might seem like small potatoes when compared to what Aerys was doing and the safety of the realm.

3. So for you, if it was political, what was his end game? Insult the Baratheon's and the Starks and then.....? R's not stupid, IMO. I don't think his plans to take down his father changed over night but this was something he needed to do because he's an honorable bloke.

You're right. I was just having a little fun... :)

;) at least we can joke at this stage.

[Kingmonkey]

How is it contradicted, when GRRM specifically describes it as a crown in the next sentence (and then again in the paragraph immediately proceeding). They're the same damn thing.

The passage says Rhaegar wins a crown and then trots over and hands Lyanna a crown. If you can't see that it's the same thing, then it's you who don't know how to read, not me.

Are you aware of the possibility that there can be more than one of a thing? You seem to be having difficulty with this concept.

Now if you're writing a passage where there are two of a thing and you want to differentiate them, what do you do? You look for synonyms. A crown and a laurel, for example. If it's the same object you're talking about, you'd use a pronoun instead.

There are two people being crowned -- a champion, and a queen of love and beauty. This kind of thing happens all the time. Homecoming, balls, May dances, tournaments, and so on. A symbolic king and queen. It's a thing. Very often one of them wins a crown, and then trots over to a member of the opposite sex and crowns them too. WITH A DIFFERENT CROWN.

You seriously don't know this?

[Kingmonkey]

Then do explain... By giving Rhaegar 40.000 men, whilst knowing that he kidnapped a girl (and being able to know his son well enough to know that would not have been without a reason), a girl young enough to birth more children, (and if not, there are other women in the Kingdom), how did Aerys ever think that holding Elia, Rhaenys and Aegon was a failproof plan?

It would be a rather cold thing to do, sacrifice your wife and children, but if Aerys truly had believed that Rhaegar wanted to overthrow Aerys, how would keeping Elia, Rhaenys and Aegon have stopped Rhaegar from taking KL? As seen with Tywin's plan, get your army into the city, then attack. In Rhaegar's case, all he had needed to have done, was arrest Aerys upon return to the city. When Tywin attacked, there was barely any time to send anyone to Elia and the kids... Why would it have been different if Rhaegar took the Red Keep?

Failproof? Obviously not. Nor was keeping Jaime close to ensure Tywin's cooperation exactly a foolpoof plan either, as it turned out. Aerys went with that, though. This is clearly his modus operandi.

This is the Mad King we're talking about here. I think the "Mad" bit is the giveaway when it comes to whether you expect his plans to be foolproof or not. Remember, if it turns out not to work he can always burn the entire city and everyone in it to the ground and be reborn as Balerion 2.0 any time he likes. It's all good!

[Kingmonkey]

Maester Yandel: "[bael's] songs are still sung beyond the Wall ... the wildlings... credit many songs to his name.... [though] the old chronicles of Winterfell say nothing of him."

Having only so far skimmed the WOIAF book, this is news to me and very interesting. If Maester Yandel is familiar with it, then I think it's pretty reasonable to guess that Rhaegar at least, who we know collected songs and was in frequent communication with Aegon at the wall, would have known the song.

A good question, I think, and worth pursuing rather than dismissing. Given the above (and assuming that Rhaegar knew the song) I find it terrifically difficult to think that - when he dumped this blue rose crown in Lyanna's lap - Rhaegar could have believed he was communicating something pointedly personal to Lyanna, without also communicating something pointedly political to House Stark (and its allies) that would completely overshadow and taint that personal message.

It's an interesting point. As to personal vs. political, it would certainly give weight to the message Rhaegar was delivering, and particularly to Robert's reaction. If there's a well-known idea that blue winter roses might be traded for Stark maidens, then delivering a blue winter rose into the lap of a Stark is pretty much saying "I'm going to take that Stark maiden, thanks". That's still a personal message, though. The political message -- likening the Starks to Wildlings -- I'm still not seeing. Why would Rhaegar want to bring that connection up? How does he benefit, what's he trying to say?

Also, in this context, I think it's worth highlighting the fact that we have no evidence Rhaegar himself had any choice in the matter of which flowers were used for the making of the QoLaB's laurel. We can only assume, I think, that had Barristan Selmy won the tournament, then whoever he'd named QoLaB would have received the same crown. The only choice we know was Rhaegar's to make was the choice he faced after the blue rose crown was his to give away.

We have no evidence that Rhaegar had any choice in the matter, but equally we have no evidence that he didn't. There's no reason to assume it wouldn't have been a trivial matter for him to get a laurel made up specially, so I really can't go along with your "We can only assume that..." It's possible that Whent had a BWR laurel made up for whoever happened to be picked as QoLaB, but it's also entirely possible that Rhaegar had one made up. I would suggest that Rhaegar's entry into the lists was specifically so that he could crown Lyanna (see the Jorah / Lynesse parallel) and that it would make perfect sense for him to get a crown of BWRs specially made up for her, to make it a more meaningful gesture.

[Alia of the knife]

He was insane?

Really, I don't know if Aerys could simply just 'pass over' the rightful heir in Aegon to name Viserys without some sort of approval by a council or something. It would see the type of thing that would need such to help prevent a succession war. "My crazy father named me heir!" isn't exactly going to fly with many noble houses who disliked Aerys and liked Rhaegar.

But was he always insane? He was hot tempered and could be vindictive, but also capable of great charm, treating his favorites very well. And we see much of his madness was rooted in paranoia, which leads back to his initial vanity.

He was threatened by Tywins popularity, and most likely, his sons growing popularity, and of course his madness would fully bloom with Duskendale, though I do believe that he and Rhaegar had somewhat of a love/hate relationship.

"Cursed be the day when the traitors schemed to embroil the father and the son". - William Marshall on the war between Henry II and his sons.

(This civil war known as the "Great Revolt" began as an inheritance fight with Henry favoring his younger son, John Lackland).

The truth is that in history no one got away with treason against ones king, not even his son. In this, Aerys would not need any councils approval to remove Rhaegar if this could be proven, and I assume this was some of the stuff Varys was instigating.

By the time rebellion happened, and things got out of control, Aerys had neither Tywin or Rhaegar. To win, Aerys needed one or the other, so in the end Rhaegar comes back to lead the armies perhaps in exchange for both his birthright, and the recognition of his marriage to Lyanna.

In true history, Medieval inheritance laws were pretty inconsistant, and GRRM said directly that he chose to model Westerosi laws the same way.

[Alia of the knife]

We have no evidence that Rhaegar had any choice in the matter, but equally we have no evidence that he didn't. There's no reason to assume it wouldn't have been a trivial matter for him to get a laurel made up specially, so I really can't go along with your "We can only assume that..." It's possible that Whent had a BWR laurel made up for whoever happened to be picked as QoLaB, but it's also entirely possible that Rhaegar had one made up. I would suggest that Rhaegar's entry into the lists was specifically so that he could crown Lyanna (see the Jorah / Lynesse parallel) and that it would make perfect sense for him to get a crown of BWRs specially made up for her, to make it a more meaningful gesture.

Given all of these really complicated theories on Rhaegars machinations, political, metaphysical and otherwise, this is the reason I tend to go with the most simple of explainations for the crowning.

As for the blue roses, I think they were already made, and Ashara could have ended up with them had Selmy played and won, so it is another layer of fate and irony that it went to Lyanna.

[markg171]

Given all of these really complicated theories on Rhaegars machinations, political, metaphysical and otherwise, this is the reason I tend to go with the most simple of explainations for the crowning.

As for the blue roses, I think they were already made, and Ashara could have ended up with them had Selmy played and won, so it is another layer of fate and irony that it went to Lyanna.

It's noted that Whent starts the tourney off by crowning his daughter the queen of love and beauty. So we have someone else already noted as having got the crown.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

It's noted that Whent starts the tourney off by crowning his daughter the queen of love and beauty. So we have someone else already noted as having got the crown.

We don't know for sure that the Whent daughter got a crown of blue roses, or that blue roses make up the QoLaB laurel in every instance.

[markg171]

We don't know for sure that the Whent daughter got a crown of blue roses, or that blue roses make up the QoLaB laurel in every instance.

I'd assume that Whent's daughter's crown and Lyanna's are one and the same simply because it's the same tournament. Plus the passage that says that Whent's daughter is crowned queen and love and beauty says that her brothers and Ser Oswell were her champions and were defending her as such. It's not the greatest stretch that defending her as the queen of love and beauty, requires defending the crown that proclaims her as such. We know they lost, so she lost her claim as love and beauty and therefore the crown. I'd assume that you'd simply just use the old queen's crown when there's a new one. GRRM also tends to note when crowns are changed (High Septon's, Cersei's, Tommen, etc), yet it's never noted here.

But I highly doubt that blue roses are used every time. We know that they're the rarest flower in Westoros, and that as far as we know, they only grow at Winterfell. So getting them is very expensive, and troublesome. Some of the richer lords could get their hands on some sure, but definitely not every lord hosting a tournament will be able to afford them. The tourney at Harrenhal was known to be extravagant and a way of Whent showing off his wealth, so it wouldn't surprise me if he chose winter roses to specifically show off his wealth in another way.

[markg171]

Having only so far skimmed the WOIAF book, this is news to me and very interesting. If Maester Yandel is familiar with it, then I think it's pretty reasonable to guess that Rhaegar at least, who we know collected songs and was in frequent communication with Aegon at the wall, would have known the song.

It's an interesting point. As to personal vs. political, it would certainly give weight to the message Rhaegar was delivering, and particularly to Robert's reaction. If there's a well-known idea that blue winter roses might be traded for Stark maidens, then delivering a blue winter rose into the lap of a Stark is pretty much saying "I'm going to take that Stark maiden, thanks". That's still a personal message, though. The political message -- likening the Starks to Wildlings -- I'm still not seeing. Why would Rhaegar want to bring that connection up? How does he benefit, what's he trying to say?

We have no evidence that Rhaegar had any choice in the matter, but equally we have no evidence that he didn't. There's no reason to assume it wouldn't have been a trivial matter for him to get a laurel made up specially, so I really can't go along with your "We can only assume that..." It's possible that Whent had a BWR laurel made up for whoever happened to be picked as QoLaB, but it's also entirely possible that Rhaegar had one made up. I would suggest that Rhaegar's entry into the lists was specifically so that he could crown Lyanna (see the Jorah / Lynesse parallel) and that it would make perfect sense for him to get a crown of BWRs specially made up for her, to make it a more meaningful gesture.

That would assume that Rhaegar knew that Lyanna was going to be at the tourney. And if he knew she was going, he probably knew that the only reasons she'd be going is if her family went with her, or she went with her betrothed (maidens do not travel around alone or they don't remain maiden long). So then again, you have to wonder why he'd specifically chose someone that he knew would cause controversy like Lyanna would. At least with a spur of the moment decision, you don't have those problems. Otherwise Rhaegar knowingly knew he was going to cause a scandal and directly anger one of the Lord Paramount's in Robert, and the sons and future heirs of a second in the Starks.

[Kingmonkey]

That would assume that Rhaegar knew that Lyanna was going to be at the tourney.

Not at all. The tourney at Harrenhal was the single biggest social event in Westeros for many years, attended by a huge number of the richest nobility of Westeros. A tourney like that would be something every merchant of luxury goods in Westeros and many beyond would hear about and want to attend. Flowers, particularly rare flowers, would be in huge demand, both by the organisers and by attendants. A tourney like this would be the principal way for the Westerosi nobility to show of their wealth and prestige. There would almost certainly be craft workers of various sorts, very much including those skilled at arranging flowers into 'favours', etc. If Rheagar decided one day that he wanted to win the joust and crown Lyanna with blue roses, there's really no reason to assume he couldn't just order the wreath made there and then.

So then again, you have to wonder why he'd specifically chose someone that he knew would cause controversy like Lyanna would. At least with a spur of the moment decision, you don't have those problems. Otherwise Rhaegar knowingly knew he was going to cause a scandal and directly anger one of the Lord Paramount's in Robert, and the sons and future heirs of a second in the Starks.

That is the interesting question though, isn't it? Central to what happened at Harrenhal, I'd say. Whether it was spur of the moment or not, whatever his motivations, Rhaegar's actions inevitably caused a scandal. Was he trying to anger the Starks and/or the Baratheons? Maybe, but in that case why?

I'm inclined to think that the scandal was not Rhaegar's intention, but that for some reason he considered the negatives of his actions to be outweighed by the positives. Rhaegar was not an enthusiastic player of the game of thrones; he was however very interested in prophecy. Obsessed, even. Specifically a prophecy about fire & ice. I suspect that Rhaeger learned something while he was at Harrenhal that made him view his interpretation of those prophecies in a new light, and he considered any political fallout to be an unimportant distraction compared to what he deemed really important.

[The Twinslayer]

Aerys' heir is Rhaegar, and Rhaegar's children, and Rhaegar's eldest child's children . . . The house of the eldest heir inherits first, always.

Now I know you are pulling my leg -- if what you are saying were true, neither Maegor the Cruel nor Aegon V would ever have been king.

[BearQueen87]

Now I know you are pulling my leg -- if what you are saying were true, neither Maegor the Cruel nor Aegon V would ever have been king.

It is custom for the eldest heir to inherit. There are sometimes extenuating circumstances that change all that. But look at Robert -- Joffery-- Tommen. Eldest heir. If Joffery and Tommen were outed as bastards then Stannis gets the throne. Even Renly knows that but doesn't really care. It is more common for the eldest heir to inherit because tradition and custom which is why there might be a few outliers but you do not have a succession war every time a king or lord dies.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

Now I know you are pulling my leg -- if what you are saying were true, neither Maegor the Cruel nor Aegon V would ever have been king.

Maegor the Cruel deliberately and violently deposed Aenys's oldest son Aegon. You're acting as if Maegor's ascension to the throne was something that was done legally and orderly, and it wasn't. He literally had to kill Aegon in order to get there. It's not as if Aenys died and everyone immediately accepted that Maegor was his lawful successor. Visenya called Maegor back from exile and crowned him (because he was her son and she wanted him in power), and people protested and said that that wasn't how the succession worked.

As for Aegon V, as has already been said, the entire reason the council was called at all was because the other candidates were unsuitable and more senior claimants were dead. Aemon had recused himself as a maester. Daeron's daughter was feeble-minded and a female, so she'd be behind the males anyway, including Aegon V. And Aerion's son Maegor was an infant and had a father with a history of mental instability. That there was a council at all was pretty serious, and Aegon was chosen literally because no one else was suitable, not because the council was trying to make a point or set a precedent about the succession. If there had been suitable candidates further up the line of succession, one of them would have been named the king and there wouldn't have needed to be a council at all.

For some incomprehensible reason, you're trying to pin both Maegor the Cruel and Aegon V's ascensions as things that happened naturally or without incident, as if they're indicative of some intended precedent. And that isn't the case. Which is why no one but you is buying your argument.