R+L=J v.120

[markg171]

1. That is the most basic and literal interpretation ever. You really think that's how GRRM writes? And a song is more than just a story, and a pact can be a story. It's a story of how two peoples came together and formed a bond. A marriage pact is also a story. It's the story of how two people wed themselves together. Please step outside your incredibly black and white reading.

2. Who says she can't wield a sword? In fact, we see her doing just that. But once again, you are reading seriously at a surface level. You need to learn to dig deeper. And I think you're missing the whole blood magic point. That's how they have fire and ice in their veins.

3. I assume you mean Rhaegar not Aegon since the baby is dead (yes, Snowfyre I see you waving your hand in protest) And we have ZERO idea when R came up with the three headed dragon but we do know this: he was a book smart kid who once read a lot of prophecy and came to some conclusions about it. So no, he wasn't trying to recreate the original three

Rickard Stark literally forbade her to learn to use a sword. So no she is never wielding Ice.

And we have Rhaegar talking about it once. You can't assume anything else.

[Ser Creighton]

Ok, good point. Symbolic ice (though, I get the feeling that trying to explain symbolism won't make a lick of difference)

Probably not. Must be hella fun in a literary class though.

Prof: All the worlds a stage, and...

Student: No it is not, the world is a planet not a stage.

Prof: In the Scarlet letter the A is symbolic of adultery

Student: Are you nuts? It is a letter in the alphabet, it has nothing to do with adultery.

Prof: Ok umm in William Blake's Poem

Ah Sunflower, weary of time,

Who countest the steps of the sun;

Seeking after that sweet golden clime

Where the travelers journey is done;

We can see that the Sun represents life and the flowers people.

Student: Are you you stupid, what are you talking about flowers are not people. Everyone has gone crazy, time to audit this class. Flowers are people? Ha, the sun is a giant ball of gas. Gas is life? Yeah right pull my finger.

[BearQueen87]

I'm pointing this out in another thread, but for Aegon to be a Blackfyre, requires the reader to have read the Tales of Dunk and Egg and to understand just what that means. Whereas for him to simply be Rhaegar's son, requires nothing but ASOIAF.

They're two separate stories and if GRRM wanted them to be read together, he'd have written them as one story.

No it doesn't. The entire important part of Blackfyre history is in AFFC and ADWD

[BearQueen87]

Rickard Stark literally forbade her to learn to use a sword. So no she is never wielding Ice.

And we have Rhaegar talking about it once. You can't assume anything else.

Literally forbade her to learn...and yet she learned. Who said anything about actually wielding Ice? Ice is the name of a sword that shows the symbolic nature of the Starks and their blood.

[sj4iy]

Rickard Stark literally forbade her to learn to use a sword. So no she is never wielding Ice.

And we know that all strong-willed children obey their parents.

Just like Aegon forbid Duncan from marrying Jenny of Oldstones. And how he forbid Jaehaerys And Shaera from marrying.

And they totally obeyed.

And we have Rhaegar talking about it once. You can't assume anything else.

LOL, yet you can assume that he named his children after Aegon and his sisters when he never talked about it at all.

[markg171]

Says the person who advocates for reading surface level deep while at the same time making wild assumptions about what a man who we only know through second-hand information was thinking when he named his children.

Basically, you choose what you want to believe and dismiss anything, no matter how factual, you don't.

I don't advocate reading at a surface level. All I've said, is sometimes that's all things are which you have taken major offence to as it doesn't fit with your chosen theory.

And once again, I don't choose what I want to believe and dismiss anything. If anything, that's been shown far more by other people in this thread than me. What I have a problem with, is all these massive jumps that everybody makes based off ZERO evidence in the books. If it's not written in the books, no I'm not going to take anything you say seriously. There has to be SOME basis for what you're trying to argue (i.e, there has to be somewhere in the books for this).

Since I've joined this board I've seen thousands of posts where people make assumptions based on what they wish, and not on what we know or have been presented with. I'm not going to take any of that seriously, especially when there are ton's of counterarguments backed up by actual evidence in the novels.

[markg171]

Literally forbade her to learn...and yet she learned. Who said anything about actually wielding Ice? Ice is the name of a sword that shows the symbolic nature of the Starks and their blood.

You literally said that Starks wield Ice and connected her with that.

[BearQueen87]

You literally said that Starks wield Ice and connected her with that.

I'll do this again. Lyanna is a Stark. The Starks are connected to symbolic ice and winter. This is seen through various instances, like being Kings of Winter, wielding a sword named Ice, living in place called Winterfell. This does not mean that Lyanna needs to be a King of Winter or wield literal Ice the Sword to be symbolic ice-Stark. That's the blood. The sword, the KoW, WF, are a demonstration of that connection.

[J. Stargaryen]

I'm pointing this out in another thread, but for Aegon to be a Blackfyre, requires the reader to have read the Tales of Dunk and Egg and to understand just what that means. Whereas for him to simply be Rhaegar's son, requires nothing but ASOIAF.

They're two separate stories and if GRRM wanted them to be read together, he'd have written them as one story.

No it doesn't. The entire important part of Blackfyre history is in AFFC and ADWD

Seems like you were proved wrong again, markg171.

[markg171]

And we know that all strong-willed children obey their parents.

Just like Aegon forbid Duncan from marrying Jenny of Oldstones. And how he forbid Jaehaerys And Shaera from marrying.

And they totally obeyed.

LOL, yet you can assume that he named his children after Aegon and his sisters when he never talked about it at all.

Aegon, Rhaenys, and Visenya were known as the 3 headed dragon. That's why the Targaryen sigil is a 3 headed dragon.

So when Rhaegar names his son and daughter Aegon and Rhaenys, and says the dragon needs 3 heads, yes he's planning on having another daughter and name her Visenya as the only 3 headed dragon, is Aegon, Rhaenys, and Visenya.

[J. Stargaryen]

It's nothing substantial, if it's anything. And it's probably been pointed out before. However, in the Winterfell crypts in Eddard I, there are two mentions of shadows, which gives a shadows of the dead vibe.

He swept the lantern in a wide semicircle. Shadows moved and lurched. Flickering light touched the stones underfoot and brushed against a long procession of granite pillars that marched ahead, two by two, into the dark. Between the pillars, the dead sat on their stone thrones against the walls, backs against the sepulchres that contained their mortal remains. “She is down at the end, with Father and Brandon.”
He led the way between the pillars and Robert followed wordlessly, shivering in the subterranean chill. It was always cold down here. Their footsteps rang off the stones and echoed in the vault overhead as they walked among the dead of House Stark. The Lords of Winterfell watched them pass. Their likenesses were carved into the stones that sealed the tombs. In long rows they sat, blind eyes staring out into eternal darkness, while great stone direwolves curled round their feet. The shifting shadows made the stone figures seem to stir as the living passed by.

Ned and Robert are down in the crypts so the king can pay his respects to Lyanna. Here we find out that, not only does Rickard have a statue, but so do Brandon and Lyanna, on either side of their father, which leaves them equal in that regard.

There were three tombs, side by side. Lord Rickard Stark, Ned’s father, had a long, stern face. The stonemason had known him well. He sat with quiet dignity, stone fingers holding tight to the sword across his lap, but in life all swords had failed him. In two smaller sepulchres on either side were his children.
Brandon had been twenty when he died, strangled by order of the Mad King Aerys Targaryen only a few short days before he was to wed Catelyn Tully of Riverrun. His father had been forced to watch him die. He was the true heir, the eldest, born to rule.
Lyanna had only been sixteen, a child-woman of surpassing loveliness. Ned had loved her with all his heart. Robert had loved her even more. She was to have been his bride.

Later, in Catelyn II, Ned and Cat are discussing the king's offers to Ned, to name him Hand and betroth Sansa to Joffrey. The subject of Brandon comes up, and Cat soon finds herself thinking of Jon's mother.

She finished for him. “…crown prince, and heir to the Iron Throne. And I was only twelve when my father promised me to your brother Brandon.”
That brought a bitter twist to Ned’s mouth. “Brandon. Yes. Brandon would know what to do. He always did. It was all meant for Brandon. You, Winterfell, everything. He was born to be a King’s Hand and a father to queens. I never asked for this cup to pass to me.”
“Perhaps not,” Catelyn said, “but Brandon is dead, and the cup has passed, and you must drink from it, like it or not.”
Ned turned away from her, back to the night. He stood staring out in the darkness, watching the moon and the stars perhaps, or perhaps the sentries on the wall.
Catelyn softened then, to see his pain. Eddard Stark had married her in Brandon’s place, as custom decreed, but the shadow of his dead brother still lay between them, as did the other, the shadow of the woman he would not name, the woman who had borne him his bastard son.

So, I wonder if this isn't a subtle callback to the crypts (shadows, dead) where Brandon and Lyanna have equal standing. They're sort of a pair, which means that if you think of one it makes sense to think of the other.

[The Twinslayer]

So, once your army is defeated, you wait 2 weeks before enacting the plan Rhaegar ordered to secure his one child? And instead of sending him from the safety of your own port, you march him along the border of the Stormlands to the ToJ.

You don't see the issue with that?

Makes sense to me. The rebels hold King's Landing and everything north of it. South of King's Landing you have territory held by Mace (a Targ loyalist) and then Dorne, where Aegon's uncle is a ruling prince. At the border you have three loyal Kingsguard waiting for him, in the way to Starfall and a good port.

Or you can put him on a boat to Essos while the Sack rages around you.

[King Tyrion XX]

Wow this one moved fast.

[J. Stargaryen]

Makes sense to me. The rebels hold King's Landing and everything north of it. South of King's Landing you have territory held by Mace (a Targ loyalist) and then Dorne, where Aegon's uncle is a ruling prince. At the border you have three loyal Kingsguard waiting for him, in the way to Starfall and a good port.

Or you can put him on a boat to Essos while the Sack rages around you.

Part of the problem with the Aegon-at-the-ToJ arguments is that it would help if there was a more concrete theory to argue; e.g., was it Rhaegar's idea, Varys's, Aerys's? If we don't believe the story we're given in Dance, why not, etc.?

Also, let's be honest, Aegon is most likely dead. Again, the theory rests on believing Varys when he says he made a secret deal with a dead person. Yeah, sounds legit.

[The Twinslayer]

Well there is the pact of ice and fire and that had nothing to do with Aegon but everything to do with a Targ and a Stark marriage that never went through.

I have some trouble tying this to Rhaegar and Lyanna. That pact was formed to assist one Targaryen claimant (the female) prevail over another (her brother). What would sealing that alliance have to do with Rhaegar, Lyanna, or anyone currently alive -- unless it is to say that Dany's gender is no bar to her claim?

[The Red Widow of Coldmoat]

Why send him away post-Trident, you mean? The war was all but over at that point. KL should've been able to hold out for a while, had Aerys not opened the gates to Tywin's army. But a siege was coming, which is why Rhaella and Viserys were sent to Dragonstone. The point being, if there was ever a need to send Aegon away, it began to exist post-Trident. That's especially true if you're tying this plan to Rhaegar himself. In which case, I'm sure such a plan would have sounded like: If anything happens to me... .

I also don't see why sailing out during the Sack would have been impossible. I don't recall anything about a rebel blockade of the Blackwater. It should have been easy enough to slip him out on a merchant ship (or something along those lines) that ostensibly wanted to get away because of the coming carnage.

Regarding that point, there doesn't seem to have been a rebel fleet period. We haven't heard about any sea battles during the war. It was Davos, a smuggler, who ran the siege of Storm's End. The Greyjoys ended up joining the rebels, but only after Rhaegar was killed on the Trident and they were mostly irrelevant in the war itself, confining themselves to the Reach anyway. Stannis had to build the fleet that ended up taking Dragonstone and that didn't happen until after the Siege of Storm's End was lifted, which was after the Sack. Even though the Lannisters had a fleet, it doesn't seem to have been involved in anything, especially since they were uninvolved in the war before the Sack. There was also a Targaryen fleet at Dragonstone (destroyed during the storm that raged when Daenerys was born) further indicating that the Crown held naval dominance during the Rebellion (especially along the Narrow Sea)

[JonSnow4President]

Makes sense to me. The rebels hold King's Landing and everything north of it. South of King's Landing you have territory held by Mace (a Targ loyalist) and then Dorne, where Aegon's uncle is a ruling prince. At the border you have three loyal Kingsguard waiting for him, in the way to Starfall and a good port.

Or you can put him on a boat to Essos while the Sack rages around you.

No. The king still holds Kings Landing. If you're so obsessed with sending your children to safety, you plan for them to be moved after your death, like Rhaella and Viserys were. You don't wait another 2 weeks, smuggle them out and pray they're not randomly murdered in the sack, and send them across the country.

[The Twinslayer]

No. The king still holds Kings Landing. If you're so obsessed with sending your children to safety, you plan for them to be moved after your death, like Rhaella and Viserys were. You don't wait another 2 weeks, smuggle them out and pray they're not randomly murdered in the sack, and send them across the country.

Are you suggesting that Rhaegar had the ability to move them while they were still hostages of Aerys', before the Sack? That seems unlikely. But it does seem likely that Rhaegar would have a plan in place that said: if I lose the Trident and King's Landing falls, here is what you need to do with my son.

[J. Stargaryen]

Are you suggesting that Rhaegar had the ability to move them while they were still hostages of Aerys', before the Sack? That seems unlikely. But it does seem likely that Rhaegar would have a plan in place that said: if I lose the Trident and King's Landing falls, here is what you need to do with my son.

Weird that we don't get that story in Dance. There's no mention of Rhaegar's involvement in the baby swap. Likely because Rhaegar would not have authorized a plan to save Aegon but not Rhaenys.

[The Twinslayer]

Weird that we don't get that story in Dance. There's no mention of Rhaegar's involvement in the baby swap. Likely because Rhaegar would not have authorized a plan to save Aegon but not Rhaenys.

You are probably right. I doubt Rhaegar was involved in any plan to save Aegon.

But if he was, I do think he would prioritize Aegon, since he thought Aegon was the Prince that was Promised.