R+L=J v.120

[MtnLion]

1. The only time that Barristan spends with Rhaegar, is on the march to the Trident.

And seeing as he fought with a different part of the army than Rhaegar did, he probably controlled a different part of the army and so he could only talk to Rhaegar at night after they've made camp and not while they marched.

But we don't actually have any information of them talking.

On the other hand, Jaime also knew Rhaegar, and we knew he specifically talked with Rhaegar after Rhaegar came back from the TOJ, yet he never mentions that Rhaegar loved Lyanna.

So how you can universally claim that Rhaegar must have loved her, when the only living person who we know actually talked to Rhaegar doesn't mention it, is beyond me.

Secondly, the fact that you say someone's name as you are dying doesn't prove you love them.

Joffrey tried to say Tyrion's name as he was dying, and we know that Joffrey definitely did not love Tyrion.

In his case, he's trying to name Tyrion as his killer.

Which could be exactly what Rhaegar was doing.

Like he's thinking "Fuck, Lyanna got me killed"

It's completely inconclusive to say that Barristan knew that Rhaegar loved Lyanna when we don't know if he ever talked to him and we have someone who we know actually talked to him and didn't mention it, and it's completely inconclusive to say he said Lyanna's name out of love as he lay dying.

1. Do you have a source for that? It sure seems like he was present at the tourney at Harrenhal.

Do you have a source for that? It seems likely that the Kingsguard were all near Rhaegar while the fighting was going on.

Barristan was a bit jealous that he was not as close to Rhaegar as Dayne.

What did Rhaegar have to say to Jaime? Stay here, because my father wants you to stay. When I come back we will need to address issues, but that is for later, though it should have been sooner.

Hmm, Barristan is not the only one. Daenerys knows that Rhaegar loved Lyanna, though she does nto name her directly when she thinks about how Rhaegar died.

Not always, but certainly it seems that this is what GRRM intended us to take from the scene.

Not sure how you know that he was trying to say Tyrion, did Joffrey have a POV that I don’t know about?

Maybe, but we don’t know exactly what Joffrey was trying to say, do we?

Not when we have several mentions that Rhaegar loved Lyanna and that he died with the name of the woman he loved on his lips.

Perhaps it did in a round about way.

You are completely inconclusive in your circular denial. In one instance you take everything written literally, and in this case you are denying what is written. This is a strong indicator of trolling.

[Han Snow]

sj4iy - I love your new avatar! :cheers:

Also to bring the discussion from the usual :bang: bang the head on the wall read and reply to some borderline autistic posts I propose another outrageous theory that can probably be knocked down in mere minutes because of timelines, opportunities and shit, but here it goes:

Jon's father is actually... tum tum tum: AERYS!!! Through rape. Rhaegar saved Lynna and married her to save her honor and raise Jon as his own.

That's not all. There is power in the number 3. So Aerys is actually:

Jon's father.

Tyrion's father.

Dany's father.

All achieved through rape. All three mothers dead during childbirth.

Huh?

[sj4iy]

sj4iy - I love your new avatar! :cheers:

Thanks! :cheers:

Also to bring the discussion from the usual :bang: bang the head on the wall read and reply to some borderline autistic posts I propose another outrageous theory that can probably be knocked down in mere minutes because of timelines, opportunities and shit, but here it goes:

Jon's father is actually... tum tum tum: AERYS!!! Through rape. Rhaegar saved Lynna and married her to save her honor and raise Jon as his own.

That's not all. There is power in the number 3. So Aerys is actually:

Jon's father.

Tyrion's father.

Dany's father.

All achieved through rape. All three mothers dead during childbirth.

Huh?

Well, that's certainly new XD

[BearQueen87]

So Jon is Neds son. Can you hear my evil laugh, can you? It's super evil.

Oh Ser. Why must you give the troll fuel.

[BearQueen87]

sj4iy - I love your new avatar! :cheers:

Also to bring the discussion from the usual :bang: bang the head on the wall read and reply to some borderline autistic posts I propose another outrageous theory that can probably be knocked down in mere minutes because of timelines, opportunities and shit, but here it goes:

Jon's father is actually... tum tum tum: AERYS!!! Through rape. Rhaegar saved Lynna and married her to save her honor and raise Jon as his own.

That's not all. There is power in the number 3. So Aerys is actually:

Jon's father.

Tyrion's father.

Dany's father.

All achieved through rape. All three mothers dead during childbirth.

Huh?

Sure. Why not. At this rate everyone is Jon's mother and father.

[sj4iy]

Sure. Why not. At this rate everyone is Jon's mother and father.

He's the CHIMERA!

[BearQueen87]

He's the CHIMERA!

The first of his name. Long may he reign

[sj4iy]

The first of his name. Long may he reign

Jon-Aemon-Visenya-Baelor, first of his name, of the Houses Baratheon, Dayne, Targaryen, Stark, Targaryen again, King of the Andals, the Rhoynar and the First Men, Lord of the Seven Kingdoms and Protector of the Realm, Lord Commander of the Night's Watch, King of Winter, King in the North, Night's King, Prince that was Promised, Azor Ahai Reborn, Lightbringer, The Stallion that Mounts the World, and pretty good lover.

Long may he reign.

[IceFire125]

Is there confirmation on this? Was Rhaegar named Protector of the Realm at that point?

We have to fill in the dots, Hightower was ordered to find Rhaegar so that he could lead the royal army, which we learned later on that it was the case.

Exactly. The app just confirms what the book already says...a few times.

It's well known amongst the royal fighters, that the fight was mainly because Rhaegar loved Lyanna... they made songs for singers to sing about it.

“When I died in the Battle of the Trident. I fought for Prince Rhaegar, though he never knew my name. I could not tell you why, save that the lord I served served a lord who served a lord who had decided to support the dragon rather than the stag. Had he decided elsewise, I might have been on the other side of the river. The battle was a bloody thing. The singers would have us believe it was all Rhaegar and Robert struggling in the stream for a woman both of them claimed to love, but I assure you, other men were fighting too, and I was one. - Feast Brienne VI

In Jon Connington’s experience, men would fight for things they felt were theirs, even things they’d gained by theft. - Dance Griffin Reborn

“But that was the tourney when he crowned Lyanna Stark as queen of love and beauty!” said Dany. “Princess Elia was there, his wife, and yet my brother gave the crown to the Stark girl, and later stole her away from her betrothed. How could he do that? Did the Dornish woman treat him so ill?” - Clash Dany IV

I would need to steal her (Val) if I wanted her love - Storm Jon XII

We would betray GRRM's eloquent writing skills, placing subtle hints and clues for purpose, if we disregard their meanings.

[Ser Leftwich]

We have to fill in the dots, Hightower was ordered to find Rhaegar so that he could lead the royal army, which we learned later on that it was the case.

I have considered this for a long time, but too big of a leap too take for me without some confirmation.

[King Tyrion XX]

I see no reason to doubt the app, when Barristan says that Rhaegar loved his Lady Lyanna . . .

But that isn't confirmation of GRRM saying Rhaegar died with Lyanna's name on his lips.

[MtnLion]

But that isn't confirmation of GRRM saying Rhaegar died with Lyanna's name on his lips.

Feel free to ignore it if it is your inclination. I know that I have read or heard GRRM stating as much, but I do not have the resources to find it for you. He has written that he died with a woman's name upon his lips, and no one suggests that it is Elia, not even Daenerys. ;)

[markg171]

1. Do you have a source for that? It sure seems like he was present at the tourney at Harrenhal.

Do you have a source for that? It seems likely that the Kingsguard were all near Rhaegar while the fighting was going on.

Barristan was a bit jealous that he was not as close to Rhaegar as Dayne.

What did Rhaegar have to say to Jaime? Stay here, because my father wants you to stay. When I come back we will need to address issues, but that is for later, though it should have been sooner.

Hmm, Barristan is not the only one. Daenerys knows that Rhaegar loved Lyanna, though she does nto name her directly when she thinks about how Rhaegar died.

Not always, but certainly it seems that this is what GRRM intended us to take from the scene.

Not sure how you know that he was trying to say Tyrion, did Joffrey have a POV that I don’t know about?

Maybe, but we don’t know exactly what Joffrey was trying to say, do we?

Not when we have several mentions that Rhaegar loved Lyanna and that he died with the name of the woman he loved on his lips.

Perhaps it did in a round about way.

You are completely inconclusive in your circular denial. In one instance you take everything written literally, and in this case you are denying what is written. This is a strong indicator of trolling.

1. Rhaegar spends the entire war away from everything until the Trident. So how would Barristan know that? And Barristan wouldn't know that Rhaegar loved Lyanna based off Harrenhal, as he doesn't kidnap her for another year, and he spent that year fucking Elia and making Aegon. So he clearly didn't love her after Harrenhal, which leaves the only opportunity for Barristan to gain any knowledge is on the march to the Trident

2. Lewyn commanded the Dornish on the right flank so no the KG were not all around Rhaegar. Rhaegar was fighting from the centre as that's where Robert fought from and they somehow came together. Someone must have been commanding the left flank which leaves Darry or Barristan. Barristan we know is brought before Robert once he's brought down from wounds, who was in the centre. That means Barristan came from somewhere else and was brought to the centre, thereby meaning he was not with Rhaegar.

3. I don't know what the point of this is. If we know Barristan wasn't close to Rhaegar, why would Rhaegar tell him he was fighting for love?

4. The point is, Rhaegar at least did speak to Jaime. That is irrefutable. Rhaegar speaking to Barristan is a guess. Jaime, who we know at least spoke to Rhaegar after he came back from the TOJ, never mentions anywhere in the books that Rhaegar loved Lyanna. So Jaime is a more reliable source than Barristan as there's nothing saying that Barristan actually talked to Rhaegar, and you yourself have pointed out that they weren't close so it's even further suggesting that Barristan wouldn't actually know.

5. Daenerys was not even born when Rhaegar died. I can't believe you just tried to cite her as a source. She knows nothing.

6. That is your interpretation. It does not say anywhere that Rhaegar said the name lovingly. It could be just as likely he said it with spite or anger. It's up to interpretation.

7. He's trying to point to him. He's trying to name him his killer.

[aDanceWithFlagons]

I guess I need to post Rhaegar's last words again.

"It's the big one! I'm dyin'! You hear that Elizabeth? I'm coming to join you honey!"

The name was Elizabeth.

[BearQueen87]

Jon-Aemon-Visenya-Baelor, first of his name, of the Houses Baratheon, Dayne, Targaryen, Stark, Targaryen again, King of the Andals, the Rhoynar and the First Men, Lord of the Seven Kingdoms and Protector of the Realm, Lord Commander of the Night's Watch, King of Winter, King in the North, Night's King, Prince that was Promised, Azor Ahai Reborn, Lightbringer, The Stallion that Mounts the World, and pretty good lover.

Long may he reign.

You. I like you.

We have to fill in the dots, Hightower was ordered to find Rhaegar so that he could lead the royal army, which we learned later on that it was the case.

It's well known amongst the royal fighters, that the fight was mainly because Rhaegar loved Lyanna... they made songs for singers to sing about it.

“When I died in the Battle of the Trident. I fought for Prince Rhaegar, though he never knew my name. I could not tell you why, save that the lord I served served a lord who served a lord who had decided to support the dragon rather than the stag. Had he decided elsewise, I might have been on the other side of the river. The battle was a bloody thing. The singers would have us believe it was all Rhaegar and Robert struggling in the stream for a woman both of them claimed to love, but I assure you, other men were fighting too, and I was one. - Feast Brienne VI

In Jon Connington’s experience, men would fight for things they felt were theirs, even things they’d gained by theft. - Dance Griffin Reborn

“But that was the tourney when he crowned Lyanna Stark as queen of love and beauty!” said Dany. “Princess Elia was there, his wife, and yet my brother gave the crown to the Stark girl, and later stole her away from her betrothed. How could he do that? Did the Dornish woman treat him so ill?” - Clash Dany IV

I would need to steal her (Val) if I wanted her love - Storm Jon XII

We would betray GRRM's eloquent writing skills, placing subtle hints and clues for purpose, if we disregard their meanings.

You. I like you as well.

[Ser Creighton]

Oh Ser. Why must you give the troll fuel.

It's an experiment kind of like this.

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=nE8pFWP5QDM

[King Tyrion XX]

Feel free to ignore it if it is your inclination. I know that I have read or heard GRRM stating as much, but I do not have the resources to find it for you. He has written that he died with a woman's name upon his lips, and no one suggests that it is Elia, not even Daenerys. ;)

Can anyone provide a link of GRRM confirming Rhaegar died with Lyanna's name on his lips?

[King Tyrion XX]

I guess I need to post Rhaegar's last words again.

"It's the big one! I'm dyin'! You hear that Elizabeth? I'm coming to join you honey!"

The name was Elizabeth.

Rhaegar Sanford :D

[markg171]

And as has been repeated many times before, and likely will be again, would NED consider these men the best examples of KG if their whole argument for why they aren't leaving the TOJ is "this dude was closer"

Not sure why the whole argument that Ned considers these guys to be the best example of KG is constantly brought up.

First of all, it's a complete butchery of the actual text.

Something his father had told him once when he was little came back to him suddenly. He had asked Lord Eddard if the Kingsguard were truly the finest knights in the Seven Kingdoms. “No longer,” he answered, “but once they were a marvel, a shining lesson to the world.”

“Was there one who was best of all?”

“The finest knight I ever saw was Ser Arthur Dayne, who fought with a blade called Dawn, forged from the heart of a fallen star. They called him the Sword of the Morning, and he would have killed me but for Howland Reed.” Father had gotten sad then, and he would say no more. Bran wished he had asked him what he meant.

Ned calls Dayne the greatest knight he ever saw. He never says he's a good KG. He never even mentions that Hightower or Whent were great KG, he simply says that the KG used to be full of the best knights in the land, but now it's not. Again, that does not say that Ned is calling any of them great KG. He just says that the KG was traditionally full of the best knights but this is no longer the case. Nowhere does he call any of them the best examples of KG as is constantly portrayed on here. Bran is specifically asking about who the best knights are, not who the best KG are. Ned is answering who the best knight was. There is literally nothing here discussing who the best KG, nor even any mention of Whent or Hightower.

Secondly, Barristan is referred to by Bran as the greatest living knight. The only person who could have told him this is Ned, and Ned even promises to bring Bran to meet Barristan when they get to KL, thereby further indicating that Ned is the one who told him that Barristan is the greatest living knight. Ned therefore holds Barristan in the highest esteem, hence why he uses Barristan to read Robert's will as no one will question his honour. Yet we know that Barristan is not actually a shining example of a KG. We have this from Barristan's own POV.

“Prince Rhaegar had two children,” Ser Barristan told him. “Rhaenys was a little girl, Aegon a babe in arms. When Tywin Lannister took King’s Landing, his men killed both of them. He served the bloody bodies up in crimson cloaks, a gift for the new king.” And what did Robert say when he saw them? Did he smile? Barristan Selmy had been badly wounded on theTrident, so he had been spared the sight of Lord Tywin’s gift, but oft he wondered. If I had seen him smile over the red ruins of Rhaegar’s children, no army on this earth could have stopped me from killing him. “I will not suffer the murder of children. Accept that, or I’ll have no part of this.”

Barristan admits that he would have gone against his vows and become a Kingslayer like Jaime, a man he believes is a complete disgrace to the KG. So Barristan himself can not be a great example of a KG, as he gives a scenario when he would have broken his vows. The greatest KG would not possibly break their vows in any situation, especially to kill their king. The greatest living knight however could do this as a part of the knightly vow is to protect children.

TL;DR Ned never actually calls Dayne, Hightower, or Whent the greatest KG he ever saw, he calls Dayne the best knight he ever saw as that's what Bran asks, and Barristan the man who Ned believes is the greatest living knight is not a great example of a KG as he admits he would have tried to kill his king. So being a great knight does not equal being a great KG. This is a complete lie being portrayed on here.

[corbon]

TL;DR Ned never actually calls Dayne, Hightower, or Whent the greatest KG he ever saw, he calls Dayne the best knight he ever saw as that's what Bran asks, and Barristan the man who Ned believes is the greatest living knight is not a great example of a KG as he admits he would have tried to kill his king. So being a great knight does not equal being a great KG. This is a complete lie being portrayed on here.

Try actually parsing out that quote...