Ned and Tywin, a Contrast in Leadership Styles

[Isobel Harper]

The best evidence of Ned's excellent leadership is the way all his children adore him. When Robb or Jon have to make executive decisions, they routinely ask themselves what Ned would do. Arya never questions the morality of killing Dareon. If Ned thinks killing NW deserters is the right thing to do, then it is by definition.

Ned also has the fierce loyalty of most of his soldiers and lords. People have charged into battle yelling For Ned. I don't anticipate anybody charging at his foe screaming For Tywin.

Having said all that, Ned was a chump and Tywin was a player. Tywin spied on his friends and his enemies. He won the War of the 5 Kings with ravens. Tywin understood that a good spy is worth a thousand swords, but Ned never did.

Tywin ultimately followed Ned to the grave because he made too many enemies. Some say that Oberyn was already poisoning Tywin before Tyrion shot him. Ned's naivete left him vulnerable to a lot of things, but he was always safe from being assassinated by his own progeny.

So what leaders, present or future could provide the correct balance of Tywin and Ned? And where is that balance?

While Ned isn't good at the "game" not for his naivete, but for his lack of practice and inexperience in it. I think Ned's aversion to the "game" has more to do with him considering that the double-dealing, dishonesty of the "game" was dishonorable and that he never bothered to persue it for moral reasons, so to speak.

[thelittledragonthatcould]

So are the Targaryens extinct as well?

As a ruling House? Yes.

Should Dany try to take over it would be through direct conquest rather than inheritance. House Plantagenet ended in 1485 but there are still people with Plantagenet blood alive today.

The Starks will have Winterfell and the North in the end through Ned's bloodline. The Lannisters won't have the crown or I doubt Tywin's line will have Casterly Rock when all is said and done.

That is a pretty good fanfiction ending. Mine involves Bronn being crowned King of Kings.

[The Wolves]

That is a pretty good fanfiction ending. Mine involves Bronn being crowned King of Kings.

Just my prediction.

[Theon {HUNGRY WOLF} Stark]

They have family members still alive, their House is extinct. Ned raised his son Robb to be the first Stark to lose Winterfel and the North. Ouch!

A House goes extinct when every member of that house is dead. As 4 true born Stark kids are still living, that House ain't extinct. Exiled yes, but not extinct.

Starks have lost Winterfell before, but always got it back. And so it will be this time. They will get the North and Winterfell back by the end of series.

[thelittledragonthatcould]

A House goes extinct when every member of that house is dead. As 4 true born Stark kids are still living, that House ain't extinct. Exiled yes, but not extinct.

Starks have lost Winterfell before, but always got it back. And so it will be this time. They will get the North and Winterfell back by the end of series.

No, a family goes extinct when every member is dead. A House goes extinct when they lose their home and land that they rule.

And when have the Starks ever lost Winterfell before?

[Darksnider05]

No, a family goes extinct when every member is dead. A House goes extinct when they lose their home and land that they rule.

And when have the Starks ever lost Winterfell before?

Pretty sure it's been set on fire multiple times through out history.

[thelittledragonthatcould]

Pretty sure it's been set on fire multiple times through out history.

That is not the same as the Starks losing Winterfell and its lands. Roose Bolton is the first non Stark to be the Overlord of the North.

[The Wolves]

That is not the same as the Starks losing Winterfell and its lands. Roose Bolton is the first non Stark to be the Overlord of the North.

No he's not. Roose doesn't have the whole North, the Starks are the only family to have held the whole North. Roose have some houses and that's because he has hostages of some but there are northern houses defying his rule. The Lannisters, and Freys are the only idiots to think holds the North even Roose knows he doesn't have the whole North he is shook up in Winterfell with all those Northernmen.

[Ulthosian Stark]

LF, Tyrion and Tyrell swords won the war.

Both were hard men. Tywin was more versed in southern politics then ned and knew that what was morally right was not always the best thing to do. In saying that I ultimately feel as leaders they're even enough, just very different. Of course ned is the man you want to work for though if you ask me

As for the future I can see jon having a nice balance between the two of them. Before that I feel robb and Brynden were on the cusp of great partnership. Jaime also has potential and can make use of his reputation without actually having to do bad (see his actions with edmure)

I feel like the Blackfish might be making his way to the wall. Yes, he says shit about Jon that Cat fed him but if he hears he rose to LC of the Watch I think hell want to meet him. Team StanJonFish would be badass.

I see Tywin is a more modern type of leader, like the wall street sharks. One who does whatever needs be done for their own benefit. I genuinely think he's Georges dig at corrupt politicians in general.

Ned on the other hand was old school, and had principle. He was practically the Old Honor embodied, just like today, Kennedy (who I'm feeling is the closest modern reference) would be a good example, men like this don't tend to survive long.

Nowadays though its just a smear campaign away from making a genuinely good leader like Ned would have been out of the game. Ugh. Just ugh.

[Ulthosian Stark]

LF, Tyrion and Tyrell swords won the war.

Both were hard men. Tywin was more versed in southern politics then ned and knew that what was morally right was not always the best thing to do. In saying that I ultimately feel as leaders they're even enough, just very different. Of course ned is the man you want to work for though if you ask me

As for the future I can see jon having a nice balance between the two of them. Before that I feel robb and Brynden were on the cusp of great partnership. Jaime also has potential and can make use of his reputation without actually having to do bad (see his actions with edmure)

I feel like the Blackfish might be making his way to the wall. Yes, he says shit about Jon that Cat fed him but if he hears he rose to LC of the Watch I think hell want to meet him. Team StanJonFish would be badass.

I see Tywin is a more modern type of leader, like the wall street sharks. One who does whatever needs be done for their own benefit. I genuinely think he's Georges dig at corrupt politicians in general.

Ned on the other hand was old school, and had principle. He was practically the Old Honor embodied, just like today, Kennedy (who I'm feeling is the closest modern reference) would be a good example, men like this don't tend to survive long.

Nowadays though its just a smear campaign away from making a genuinely good leader like Ned would have been out of the game. Ugh. Just ugh.

[Ramsay Gimp]

Ned on the other hand was old school, and had principle. He was practically the Old Honor embodied, just like today, Kennedy (who I'm feeling is the closest modern reference) would be a good example, men like this don't tend to survive long.

Pretty romanticized picture of Kennedy you got there...

[Theon {HUNGRY WOLF} Stark]

I feel like the Blackfish might be making his way to the wall. Yes, he says shit about Jon that Cat fed him but if he hears he rose to LC of the Watch I think hell want to meet him. Team StanJonFish would be badass.

I see Tywin is a more modern type of leader, like the wall street sharks. One who does whatever needs be done for their own benefit. I genuinely think he's Georges dig at corrupt politicians in general.

Ned on the other hand was old school, and had principle. He was practically the Old Honor embodied, just like today, Kennedy (who I'm feeling is the closest modern reference) would be a good example, men like this don't tend to survive long.

Nowadays though its just a smear campaign away from making a genuinely good leader like Ned would have been out of the game. Ugh. Just ugh.

Are You talking about same Kennedy who sent American soldiers to their deaths and eventual shameful defeat in 'Nam?

[Fire Eater]

Ned's policy of noblesse oblige and honor worked in the long-term. He left a good legacy, and ensured the loyalty of his bannermen as exemplified in ADwD with Manderly and the mountain clans working to bring down the Boltons. He suffered from an inability to see power in terms on institutions rather just people, and seeing how his Office of Hand could be used.

Tywin is a realpolitikan who is suited to court of KL, and always relegated his dirty work to his subordinates, so he could have them take the fall for him. His policy worked in the short-term, but failed in the long-term. He didn't see the legacy he was building, his house immediately crumbles after his death with many houses wanting to take revenge on his children and grandchildren for his actions. No one esteems the Lannisters anymore, and the honor of their house has become a joke, saying they are twisty snakes and have shit for honor. His house's name has become synonymous with corruption, brutality and rulers acting without any regard for decency, ethics or the laws of gods and men.

The character we have seen who provides the best balance between the two men is Baelor Breakspear. He is pragmatic and accustomed to court politics in KL like Tywin, however he believes in the ideals of honor, chivalry and justice like Ned to the point he is willing to fight against his kin on behalf of a hedge knight.

And yet, the Starks were ultimately betrayed by their bannermen while the Westerlands houses continue to remain completely loyal to the Lannisters (even when they appeared doomed early in the war). Of course that's more of a knock against Robb than Eddard, but I wouldn't discount the loyalty Tywin earned from his bannermen.

What else were the Westerlands houses going to do? They couldn't separate from Tywin in hostile enemy territory. His bannermen were with him out of fear, and I don't here of any Westerman lords rushing to the aid of Tywin's daughter, Cersei, when she was captured and imprisoned by the HS, even when the Lannister held the IT. Tywin was betrayed by his own son, Tyrion, which is worse than betrayal by bannerman.

And his Grandson is still King of Westeros, his daughter still Lady of the Westerlands.

His remaining grandson and granddaughter are slated for death and losing the IT and Cersei will lose CR.

That is not the same as the Starks losing Winterfell and its lands. Roose Bolton is the first non Stark to be the Overlord of the North.

And he is already facing a rebellion and plots against him in the first few months, and we know where his House is headed in the storyline. The Starks aren't extinct, you don't have the definition down by the looks of it. No one refers to a house that lost their lands as extinct, extinction means there are no surviving (at least male) heirs, and there are three male heirs for House Stark. Or by that logic, Homeless Harry's house is extinct as is.

[Ramsay Gimp]

What else were the Westerlands houses going to do? They couldn't separate from Tywin in hostile enemy territory.

That's what the Karstarks and Roose Bolton did.

His bannermen were with him out of fear, and I don't here of any Westerman lords rushing to the aid of Tywin's daughter, Cersei, when she was captured and imprisoned by the HS, even when the Lannister held the IT. Tywin was betrayed by his own son, Tyrion, which is worse than betrayal by bannerman.

People say "they only were loyal out of fear" as if that is a bad thing. Love is nice for an overlord, but it won't keep men like Roose Bolton, Roger Reyne, or Walder Frey in line. Kevan took over for the Lannisters after Cersei's fall, and if he had ordered an attack on the Sparrows it would have happened.

[thelittledragonthatcould]

His remaining grandson and granddaughter are slated for death and losing the IT and Cersei will lose CR.

It must be great to have a time machine. Can you tell me next weeks lottery numbers as well.

[Darksnider05]

It must be great to have a time machine. Can you tell me next weeks lottery numbers as well.

You didn't know they were going to die? Cersei's death and life was prophesied it's part of the reason she's bat shit crazy.

[thelittledragonthatcould]

You didn't know they were going to die? Cersei's death and life was prophesied it's part of the reason she's bat shit crazy.

When something happens in the books then I will consider it canon. I dont expect every prophesy to come true.

[Hardtack]

It's amusing that there are people arguing the Lannisters are in a great position when the last two books have had enormous page count given over to what a mess things are. The Lannister patriarchs are dead (one of them murdered by his own son) and their heirs are inadequate, unwilling, or absent. 'Their' king is a Tyrell puppet. The crown is up to its eyeballs in debt. The Riverlands are a bloody shambles, with open rebellion quite likely to flare up again despite the war being nominally over. The North is in rebellion, and Tywin's scheme to install Roose Bolton as lord of the north is set to unravel in a truly spectacular fashion (depending on how radical a theory you buy into, somewhere between nearly all and merely most Northern lords are trying to bring the Boltons down, and the Karstarks have already been dealt with). There's a new rebellion brewing in the Stormlands that might sweep up Dorne and parts of the Reach as well.

Sure, Tywin Lannister's bannermen feared him, and that kept them in line. But now he's dead and his heirs are not nearly so intimidating. His 'legacy' is being dismantled, and so far we don't see any hardcore pro-Lannister people who feel particularly moved to preserve it in the absence of a strong Lannister lord. That's not exactly a powerful endorsement of Tywin Lannister.

[thelittledragonthatcould]

It's amusing that there are people arguing the Lannisters are in a great position when the last two books have had enormous page count given over to what a mess things are.

This thread is a comparison between Ned Stark and Tywin Lannister.

In contrast to the Starks and what has happened to them in the series the Lannisters are in a great situation.

[Hardtack]

This thread is a comparison between Ned Stark and Tywin Lannister.

In contrast to the Starks and what has happened to them in the series the Lannisters are in a great situation.

And I'm saying that people are badly overstating the long-term effectiveness of Tywin Lannister's leadership.

The Lannisters are on the way out. Their leaders are dead, their heirs are two monks and an exile, and their regime is controlled by another house. 'Sockpuppet of the Tyrells' is not what I'd call a great situation. Tywin Lannister's leadership style was great for Tywin Lannister, but didn't do much for the long term prospects of the house.

The Starks have loyal followers plotting their restoration pretty much solely on the weight of their esteem for Ned and Robb, in spite of the adverse circumstances doing so entails. Inspiring your followers is one of the most important aspects of political leadership, and it speaks volumes about Ned Stark that people will fight and die in the name of a man who is years dead and a king who's cause is utterly lost because he is so respected.