Ned and Tywin, a Contrast in Leadership Styles

[Lointain]

What are you guys talking about? The last appointment in the North that the Lannisters made for the North was Roose Bolton as warden. Decidedly not the same thing as a LP. If the Iron Throne officially appointed a new Lord Paramount of the North, when did that happen? ("When" as in: book and chapter.)

You are right.

Roose Bolton is the current Warden of the North, not the "de jure" Lord Paramount; he is only acting has the "de facto" Lord Paramount.

Thanks for pointing the mistake.

[Tynned Lannistark]

I'm down for PL. Tiberius/Stannis, Joff/Littleboots and I await GRRM's rendition of Alcibiades. I know The a Young Dragon's writing style is supposed to mirror Caeser's Gallic Wars, but there's little similarity beyond that.

If we're expanding beyond the classical, there's plenty of Bismark in Tywin.

I never realized how much Tywin is so very Bismark. .

Though perhaps with hyper sensitivity to any perceived disrespect which sometimes cloud his realpolitik approach with petty vindictiveness.

Still they have lots in common. Including their policies undone by incompetent heirs.

I can also see the Tiberius/Stannis , Joff/Caligula thing.

[Roose on the Loose]

You are right.

Roose Bolton is the current Warden of the North, not the "de jure" Lord Paramount; he is only acting has the "de facto" Lord Paramount.

Thanks for pointing the mistake.

Ramsey was wed to fArya so that Ramsey would take Ned's old seat.

I suspect Roose got Warden of the North because people are reluctant to give Ramsey an army.

[Lykaios Wolfsheart]

Nope, underestimated massively. All you need to know is that Ned honestly thought LF was going to come through for him with that Gold Cloak bribe when you had to be very naïve to think that.

Let's face it: Ned was dumb.

Ned didn't trust Littlefinger at first, but out of everyone in Kings Landing, he was one of the few people who seemed to be his ally; he based this on the fact that Littlefinger seemingly cared a lot for his wife and helped her when she needed help. In that situation, I probably would have felt inclined to trust him as well.

I have lurked these forums for a while and have only recently made an account to make comment on certain opinions, and I see this "Ned was dumb" opinion as simply harsh and far too judgmental. Slightly naive and far too trusting, I totally agree, he should have stuck with his gut and not trusted anyone. But unfortunately with men like Eddard, and the lords of the north in general, court intrigue and plots are seen as disgraceful, and most would never get involved in it. So you cna understand that when a man of honesty and honour comes to the vipers pit that is Kings Landing, he really is out of his comfort zone and was bound to make mistakes. I think it's unfair to say he was idiotic, as he quite clearly wasn't due to his success as the Lord Paramount of the North (I believe there must be at least some intelligence involved in the running of an entire realm) and the fierce love his lords felt for him.

I mean, I usually relate each characters actions to "what would I do in that situation" and I have to be honest, I think I would have struggled just as much as Ned.

[Lykaios Wolfsheart]

The worst leadership we see is from Stannis. He communicates with his followers primarily by punishing them, even Davos. This is a big part of why he has so few followers. Even so, at least a third of my bosses have been from the Stannis school of leadership.

Hahaha I actually completely agree with this! I personally think Stannis would make a terrible King as he is set on this idea that the Throne is his right, and I don't see him thinking of it as a duty. He just thinks everyone will swan to him becasue he's the rightful heir when in reality he has no charisma whatsoever and is far too harsh, and he has suffered tremendously because of it.

[Lion of the West]

Ned didn't trust Littlefinger at first, but out of everyone in Kings Landing, he was one of the few people who seemed to be his ally; he based this on the fact that Littlefinger seemingly cared a lot for his wife and helped her when she needed help. In that situation, I probably would have felt inclined to trust him as well.

I have lurked these forums for a while and have only recently made an account to make comment on certain opinions, and I see this "Ned was dumb" opinion as simply harsh and far too judgmental. Slightly naive and far too trusting, I totally agree, he should have stuck with his gut and not trusted anyone. But unfortunately with men like Eddard, and the lords of the north in general, court intrigue and plots are seen as disgraceful, and most would never get involved in it. So you cna understand that when a man of honesty and honour comes to the vipers pit that is Kings Landing, he really is out of his comfort zone and was bound to make mistakes. I think it's unfair to say he was idiotic, as he quite clearly wasn't due to his success as the Lord Paramount of the North (I believe there must be at least some intelligence involved in the running of an entire realm) and the fierce love his lords felt for him.

I mean, I usually relate each characters actions to "what would I do in that situation" and I have to be honest, I think I would have struggled just as much as Ned.

That's a good one. Guess the Boltons, Karstarks, Manderlys and Lady Dustin are not "true northmen, and northwoman". Because they sure seem to be accustomed to plotting.

[Batbob45]

The worst leadership style is not Stannis.The men he punished are still loyal to him.The people who don't want him as a king in the books are mostly untrustworthy. LF is even worst person to follow, he would kill you as soon as you are no longer of use to him.

[Chaircat Meow]

.

Though perhaps with hyper sensitivity to any perceived disrespect which sometimes cloud his realpolitik approach with petty vindictiveness.

That's actually Bismarck's reputation as well, which is why the comparison gets suggested. 'I spent all night hating,' etc.

[jon stark I]

I am sick of Ned was dumb arguements.Ned wasn't dumb he was merciful and thought Cersei would want to save her children.Ned failed because of just shear dumb luck.Stannis chickens out and doesn't come, LF has another agenda, Renly too chickens out, Barristan is idiot as always and Lannister gold buys everything.I mean if there was something like good luck charm in Westeros then Cersei was probably dropped into a pot full of it when she was a kid if not she would have been a head on a spike long time ago.

Ned was a great leader, he knew how to gain everybodies respect.He went to all his bannermans homes even Mountain Clans which is really cool, he also knew how to take care of the smallfolk, for example everyday he would invite one of his subjects for dinner and listen to their problems same goes for travelers too.This might seem like nothing but it is actually a very good way to keep in touch with his people and gather good information(his men could lie to him but if he listens to his people he can get the truth out of them).He was loved or feared by everyone.Mountain Clans come charging to Stannis so they can save "Ned's little girl" even his enemies remember him with respect.People believe in his judgement whether it is a lord or a farmer everyone gets the same type of trial.

Tywin is a leader because he is brutal.He isn't a great battle commender, we can't say he is fair.He has no lne that he won't cross.Which is why he is good at his job.You can expect everything from a dude like him.If it means winning he will do the most horrible thing without even blinking an eye.But the dynasty he built won't last forever.Everyone fears him but what about his children or grandchildren?Cersei is revealed as a whore to all KL, Jaime is a criple with no honor, Tyrion a kinslayer and as of now there is noone of his own blood that can carry the name of his house.He used to threaten people with power but with Wo5K, Lannisters are a spent force, they might not be broke but war took a lot from them, their army is really weak, their leader is nonexisting.Kevan dead, Tywin dead, Cersei (mad and powerless for now)stupid, Tyrion criminal.What a great leader he is.

I didn't include Ned' kids because he wasn't there to influence them like Tywn was in all the books.Ned died earlier so the things happened after his death are not related to him.

[Chaircat Meow]

I am sick of Ned was dumb arguements.

He was dumb. Dumb du dumb dumb dumb da da da dumb.

He was as dumb as two planks nailed together with super glue.

What sort of guy trusts the man who fought a duel with his brother over his wife?

[Frey Pie]

The man who trusts his wife's judgement I guess.

Tyrion was an idiot for trusting LF also then. And I believe Tywin also had trust for him.

Dumb as dumb can be all of them

[Chaircat Meow]

Tyrion was an idiot for trusting LF also then. And I believe Tywin also had trust for him.

Nope. They trusted LF would serve his own self interest. That's not what Ned did.

[Frey Pie]

Nope. They trusted LF would serve his own self interest. That's not what Ned did.

Still trusted LF with serious business

And where did it get them? The death of their king and Tyrion in jail on his way to the block or the wall. How about the loss of the Stark heir and the plan to marry her to the Vale heir? The dominance of the roses?

LF doesn't seem untrustworthy at all to begin with. He's a lil sarcastic and all that but to begin with he's just another of the King's councillors who happens to be very good at his job. He has personal contact with Ned's family and Ned is told that he can trust him by his wife. Was ned naive? Yes. Stupid? Not in this instance

Or am I missing a time when LF has shown himself untrustworthy before this that Ned would know of?

[Bironic]

I can understand why ned trusted LF, although I think it was very naive, but what I couldn't understand was why he wanted to take three !!! of his children in this "nest of vipers".

I mean I understand why he did take Sansa, she was betrothed to Joffrey after all, but why did he bring Arya to KL? And he wanted to take Bran too.

[Fire Eater]

What are you guys talking about? The last appointment in the North that the Lannisters made for the North was Roose Bolton as warden. Decidedly not the same thing as a LP. If the Iron Throne officially appointed a new Lord Paramount of the North, when did that happen? ("When" as in: book and chapter.)

The Warden of the North is the LP in this scenario as Bolton is the only Northman they can have some semblance of trust with.

[Lykaios Wolfsheart]

That's a good one. Guess the Boltons, Karstarks, Manderlys and Lady Dustin are not "true northmen, and northwoman". Because they sure seem to be accustomed to plotting.

I was merely stating that the general mindset in the North is that things should be dealt with honestly rather than through secret plots.

Besides, the Manderleys are not true Northmen. They are former Southrons, as has been stated several times. The Boltons are hardly human let alone northmen, and the others are simply exceptions.

I'm not saying that Northmen don't plot, I'm saying that most of the people who live in the North are of a mindset that plots are dishonourable and tend to steer clear which explains Ned's ineffectiveness in the court intrigue of Kings Landing.

[Lykaios Wolfsheart]

What sort of guy trusts the man who fought a duel with his brother over his wife?

Some people have an ability to forgive after 18 years?

[Roose on the Loose]

The man who trusts his wife's judgement I guess.

Tyrion was an idiot for trusting LF also then. And I believe Tywin also had trust for him.

Dumb as dumb can be all of them

That's a good one. Guess the Boltons, Karstarks, Manderlys and Lady Dustin are not "true northmen, and northwoman". Because they sure seem to be accustomed to plotting.

Plotting requires communication. In the North that means communication across great distances. It still happens, but not like at court where a King's Lander might hatch 3 plots before breakfast with people they ran into by chance.

Ned was also less vulnerable to scheming in the North because Cat isn't nearly as naive as Ned, and because Ned listens to her. Cat was often impulsive, but she always knew the score. As a team, they complemented each other that way. Ned had the charm and patience, and Cat had the sense and courtesy.

Listening to LF was good. Information is always good even when it includes a certain amount of lies. Ned's mistake was relying completely on information that is brought to him rather than proactively recruiting his own sources like Tywin does. Ned should have used his rural charm and his position as Hand to make lots of friends and gossip with them.

[Roose on the Loose]

Some people have an ability to forgive after 18 years?

Maybe, but it is very hard for two men who love the same woman to be friends.

[Winterfell is Burning]

Maybe, but it is very hard for two men who love the same woman to be friends.

Yeah, but as far as Ned knew, LF was mostly over Cat. Most men are over a woman after 18 years. He couldn't know what kind of psychopath LF was, since all Ned knew about him came from her.