BearQueen87 Posted December 31, 2014 Share Posted December 31, 2014 The problem is though, is that there seems to be multiple promises. One seems to be about being buried in Winterfell. One seems to be about Rhaegar being dead. One of them causes Ned to immediately comment that he thinks he's going mad. The promise issue, isn't as clear cut and dry as is portrayed on here. That aside, the point though was that when you only say that Ned loved her with all of his heart, you can argue anything as a certainty that Ned would have done all he could because he loved her with all his heart. When you acknowledge that it was possible to love her even more, that's no longer a certainty that he would have agreed to anything and would have gone to any lengths for her. It becomes a possibility. And there's a huge difference between a possibility and a certainty. Where are you getting that the promise has anything to do with Rhaegar being dead...? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
markg171 Posted December 31, 2014 Share Posted December 31, 2014 Where are you getting that the promise has anything to do with Rhaegar being dead...? "You avenged Lyanna at the Trident," Ned said, halting beside the king. Promise me, Ned, she had whispered. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ygrain Posted December 31, 2014 Share Posted December 31, 2014 *sigh* This is now becoming frustrating. Robert loving Lyanna more or less than Ned (or even just DIFFERENTLY) has nothing to do with what Ned would or wold not do for Lyanna. Nothing. Absolutely nothing. Ned did not stop and say, 'I can't do what you want Lyanna because there is another person who loves you more." ...and he wonders why he is accused of lack of reading comprehension. /facepalm/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BearQueen87 Posted December 31, 2014 Share Posted December 31, 2014 But what does this quote have to do with what Ned promised Lyanna? Would would Lyanna ask Ned to promise that involved Rhaegar's death...he's dead. And he's not thinking about Rhaegar and his death, specifically..he's thinking about LYANNA. The promise is coming up right then because Robert is talking about Lyanna and Rhaegar and Ned is haunted by the truth, as they walk past the eyes of the former kings toward Lyanna's crypt, and most importantly how she died. (ie: birthing baby boy Jon) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Han Snow Posted December 31, 2014 Share Posted December 31, 2014 ...and he wonders why he is accused of lack of reading comprehension. /facepalm/ Or just trolling. If genuine, then... :( Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
markg171 Posted December 31, 2014 Share Posted December 31, 2014 But what does this quote have to do with what Ned promised Lyanna? Would would Lyanna ask Ned to promise that involved Rhaegar's death...he's dead. And he's not thinking about Rhaegar and his death, specifically..he's thinking about LYANNA. The promise is coming up right then because Robert is talking about Lyanna and Rhaegar and Ned is haunted by the truth, as they walk past the eyes of the former kings toward Lyanna's crypt, and most importantly how she died. (ie: birthing baby boy Jon) For you to avenge someone, there has to be a slight. Promise me comes up after Ned reminds Robert that he killed Rhaegar, the one who slighted Lyanna. Promise me here, suggests it has to do with Rhaegar being dead. And this quote actually comes from an entirely different chapter so no, it has nothing to do with being near Lyanna's crypt and Ned being haunted by the "truth". Now in light of this "promise me" occurring right after Ned mentioning the death of Rhaegar, if say, Lyanna had been kidnapped and routinely raped as is what we're told, don't you think she would want to be sure that Rhaegar was dead? In which case she might make Ned promise her that he was and could no longer hurt her. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BearQueen87 Posted December 31, 2014 Share Posted December 31, 2014 For you to avenge someone, there has to be a slight. Promise me comes up after Ned reminds Robert that he killed Rhaegar, the one who slighted Lyanna. Promise me here, suggests it has to do with Rhaegar being dead. And this quote actually comes from an entirely different chapter so no, it has nothing to do with being near Lyanna's crypt and Ned being haunted by the "truth". Now in light of this "promise me" occurring right after Ned mentioning the death of Rhaegar, if say, Lyanna had been kidnapped and routinely raped as is what we're told, don't you think she would want to be sure that Rhaegar was dead? In which case she might make Ned promise her that he was and could no longer hurt her. My mistake about the chapter. I thought it was Ned 1. Okay, but to Robert it's revenge. Not to Ned. That's why the promise is there. Ned's internal thoughts tell the truth of what really happened, or at least hint at it. What is Ned going to say: "you murdered a guy who was going to change the realm and bring peace and oh by the way, the woman you were in love with was in love with the guy you killed. They had a baby together." The promise me, Ned in this case isn't confirming what he is saying to placate Robert...it's refuting it. And if you think Ned isn't always haunted by the truth, then I'm not sure what to tell you. Even when he's not actively thinking of the promise (ie: promise me, Ned appearing in the text) there are hints that he thinks about Lyanna and what happened a lot. Like telling Arya that a some lies are not without honor. Or in Cat 2 when Ned looks out the window, and seems far away, while Luwin tries to tell him that sending Jon to the Wall is a good idea Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JonSnow4President Posted December 31, 2014 Share Posted December 31, 2014 Oh darn, we're on page 20. About time to break in the new OP. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BearQueen87 Posted December 31, 2014 Share Posted December 31, 2014 Oh darn, we're on page 20. About time to break in the new OP. AKA: PARTY TIME Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alia of the knife Posted December 31, 2014 Share Posted December 31, 2014 Already! :shocked: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BearQueen87 Posted December 31, 2014 Share Posted December 31, 2014 Already! :shocked: Ooooh. Nice new pic/title Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JonSnow4President Posted December 31, 2014 Share Posted December 31, 2014 Already! :shocked: If this one was replaced right now, it lasted 3 full days. That's not anything like the 95-100 threads. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BearQueen87 Posted December 31, 2014 Share Posted December 31, 2014 I'd like to propose that for v.124, we have a nice conversation about Lyanna and Alys Karstark as was proposed a few pages back Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alia of the knife Posted December 31, 2014 Share Posted December 31, 2014 Ooooh. Nice new pic/title I know, when I stumbled across this, I was like "head canon," Arya/Lyanna with all due respect to Maisie. I actually see Williams as a more contemporary character actress for some reason, in the tradition of a Goth rock goddess, lol. If this one was replaced right now, it lasted 3 full days. That's not anything like the 95-100 threads. I guess I've just been busy. :dunno: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Twinslayer Posted December 31, 2014 Share Posted December 31, 2014 Oh darn, we're on page 20. About time to break in the new OP.In that case, I want my last post in this version to be a hearty thank you to Jon Weirgaryen for all the work on the OP/Reference Guide in this thread and the last one.Cheers, Jon Weirgaryen! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ygrain Posted December 31, 2014 Share Posted December 31, 2014 I seem to recall an Alys/Lyanna analysis but by all means, let's do it! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jon Weirgaryen Posted December 31, 2014 Author Share Posted December 31, 2014 I seem to recall an Alys/Lyanna analysis but by all means, let's do it! Yay! On a related subject, I remember wildling marriage is presented to us with the theme of the male stealing the female... and the stealing-part is what ties into R+L. I cannot remember where we actually learn that the stealing only is initiative, maybe like a betrothal, and the Weirwood comes in for the actual marriage vows.Somebody please help me along, I've only just woken up and made the family breakfast. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
markg171 Posted December 31, 2014 Share Posted December 31, 2014 I'd like to propose that for v.124, we have a nice conversation about Lyanna and Alys Karstark as was proposed a few pages back I'm not sure exactly what you're trying to propose. What are the similarities, because I can't see any relevant? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
markg171 Posted December 31, 2014 Share Posted December 31, 2014 Yay! On a related subject, I remember wildling marriage is presented to us with the theme of the male stealing the female... and the stealing-part is what ties into R+L. I cannot remember where we actually learn that the stealing only is initiative, maybe like a betrothal, and the Weirwood comes in for the actual marriage vows.Somebody please help me along, I've only just woken up and made the family breakfast. Except stealing a wildling is clearly not the same as marrying one. But he was a man of the Night's Watch, he had taken a vow. I shall take no wife, hold no lands, father no children. He had said the words before the weirwood, before his father's gods. He could not unsay them . . . no more than he could admit the reason for his reluctance to Tormund Thunderfist, Father to Bears."Do you mislike the girl?" Tormund asked him as they passed another twenty mammoths, these bearing wildlings in tall wooden towers instead of giants."No, but I . . . " What can I say that he will believe? "I am still too young to wed.""Wed?" Tormund laughed. "Who spoke of wedding? In the south, must a man wed every girl he beds?"Jon could feel himself turning red again. "She spoke for me when Rattleshirt would have killed me. I would not dishonor her.""You are a free man now, and Ygritte is a free woman. What dishonor if you lay together?""I might get her with child.""Aye, I'd hope so. A strong son or a lively laughing girl kissed by fire, and where's the harm in that?"Words failed him for a moment. "The boy . . . the child would be a bastard.""Are bastards weaker than other children? More sickly, more like to fail?""No, but - ""You're bastard-born yourself. And if Ygritte does not want a child, she will go to some woods witch and drink a cup o' moon tea. You do not come into it, once the seed is planted.""I will not father a bastard."Tormund shook his shaggy head. "What fools you kneelers be. Why did you steal the girl if you don't want her?""Steal? I never . . . ""You did," said Tormund. "You slew the two she was with and carried her off, what do you call it?""I took her prisoner.""You made her yield to you.""Yes, but . . . Tormund, I swear, I've never touched her.""Are you certain they never cut your member off?" Tormund gave a shrug, as if to say he would never understand such madness. "Well, you are a free man now, but if you will not have the girl, best find yourself a she-bear. If a man does not use his member it grows smaller and smaller, until one day he wants to piss and cannot find it."Jon had no answer for that. Small wonder that the Seven Kingdoms thought the free folk scarcely human. They have no laws, no honor, not even simple decency. They steal endlessly from each other, breed like beasts, prefer rape to marriage, and fill the world with baseborn children. Yet he was growing fond of Tormund Giantsbane, great bag of wind and lies though he was. Longspear as well. And Ygritte . . . no, I will not think about Ygritte. There is clearly a massive difference between stealing a girl, and marrying her. Betrothal is nowhere here, but if Rhaegar stole Lyanna, it's clear that he did not betroth her, nor did he marry her. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rhaenys_Targaryen Posted December 31, 2014 Share Posted December 31, 2014 The problem is though, is that there seems to be multiple promises. One seems to be about being buried in Winterfell. One seems to be about Rhaegar being dead. One of them causes Ned to immediately comment that he thinks he's going mad. The promise issue, isn't as clear cut and dry as is portrayed on here. That aside, the point though was that when you only say that Ned loved her with all of his heart, you can argue anything as a certainty that Ned would have done all he could because he loved her with all his heart. When you acknowledge that it was possible to love her even more, that's no longer a certainty that he would have agreed to anything and would have gone to any lengths for her. It becomes a possibility. And there's a huge difference between a possibility and a certainty.Yet no one said Ned loved her most of all, and then used that ad an argument.I'd like to propose that for v.124, we have a nice conversation about Lyanna and Alys Karstark as was proposed a few pages backI'm all for it :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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