The Riverlands Web V.5

[Le Cygne]

As for the bold, I must confess, I seem to go against this forums popular opinion on this. While I agree there is a connection there between the GOHH and anything representing the old god's [ Nym's, BR etc..] I don't think she is a COTF. It doesn't feel right to me, as the description of the children is so different to that of the GOHH.

Agree, doesn't seem quite right. That's such a difference.

[LongRider]

The weirwood trees are albinos too. They are the most powerful albinos of the story it seems. GRRM has given power to albinos and there aren't many mentioned in the story. The BWB visits the GoHH and she foretells LSH rising. And Wizz is right to ask, did she predict the future, or did the BWB bring the future about under her guidance?

And Beric passing the flame to LSH begs the question, can she do the same? I for one hope not, enough with the zombies already! LOL!

[Booknerd2]

Nice posts on LSH guys. I agree there is more to her than it seems, or at least I hold out some hope ! ^_^ Trawling through the many blogs on the net, I came across a cool piece on LSH's awareness, or how much she may or may not remember. [ Zincpiccalilli - The Grand Northern Conspiracy - Part 2.] Nothing absolutely concrete, but some interesting thoughts nonetheless..... [ I have trimmed down to suit our chat, but kudos to Zincpiccalilli.]

[ Jaime ] turned back to Lady Mariya [ Darry, wife of Merrett Frey.]. “The outlaws who killed your husband… Was it Lord Beric’s band?”

“So we thought at first.” Though Lady Mariya’s hair was streaked with grey, she was still a handsome woman. “The killers scattered when they left Oldstones. Lord Vypren tracked one band to Fairmarket but lost them there. Black Walder led hounds and hunters into Hag’s Mire after the others. The peasants denied seeing them, but when questioned sharply they sang a different song. They spoke of a one-eyed man and another who wore a yellow cloak… and a woman, cloaked and hooded. …The peasants would have us believe that her face was torn and scarred, her eyes terrible to look upon. They claim she led the outlaws.”

“Led them?” Jaime found that hard to believe. “Beric Dondarrion and the red priest…”

“…were not seen.” Lady Mariya sounded certain.

“How far did Black Walder track this hooded woman and her men ?”

“His hounds picked up their scent again north of Hag’s Mire,” the older woman told him. “He swears that he was no more than half a day behind them when they vanished into the Neck.”

“I would not put it past the crannogmen to shelter outlaws,” said Ser Danwell Frey. [ Jaime IV, AFFC.]

This is obviously Jack-Be-Lucky, Lem Lemoncloak and Lady Stoneheart. But this isn't the first time that some version of Catelyn Stark has visited Hag’s Mire. In ASOS....

Five days later, scouts rode back to warn them that the rising waters had washed out the wooden bridge at Fairmarket.....

Robb looked to Catelyn. “Is there another bridge ?”

“No. And the fords will be impassable.” She tried to remember. “If we cannot cross the Blue Fork, we’ll have to go around it, through Sevenstreams and Hag’s Mire.” [ Catelyn V, ASOS.]

This is where Robb’s host pass through Oldstones, Sevenstreams and Hag’s Mire. His last council as King in the North was there. And within this part of the text, there is the will of course.... Could LSH have remembered ?

It doesn't go north with Galbart Glover and Maege Mormont, who carry false letters, some fear it may be lost in the mayhem of the Red Wedding. Another possibility, however, is that the document was hidden in Hag’s Mire and has now been retrieved by LSH.

If this is the case, that could mean LSH is more capable of rational thought than we maybe believed. And the theory goes, she is remembering the past, and the will, and perhaps acting on it ? Even if the will isn't involved, her movements perhaps shows some cognitive thought ?

Anyway, as we've mentioned, UnCat seems unusually contemplative in her final AFFC scene as she ponders over Robb’s crown.....

'' A trestle table had been set up across the cave, in a cleft in the rock. Behind it sat a woman all in grey, cloaked and hooded. In her hands was a crown, a bronze circlet ringed by iron swords. She was studying it, her fingers stroking the blades as if to test their sharpness. Her eyes glimmered under her hood.'' [ Brienne VIII, AFFC.]

Is this showing some memory of the land/previous experiences [ Hag's mire ] ? While I agree there could be family memories/guilt, could she have been contemplating the will while stroking the crown in her final chapter appearance ? Could they have retrieved the will somehow [ hidden somewhere.] ? What was LSH doing in the Neck ? Perhaps some off page meetings with a certain HR ? At the very least, as you've mentioned bookie, if not, we can throw it out there, and it may lead to some ideas or cool discussion. :)

Looks great. Never noticed this. Hag's Mire did not stick out for me. Great work as usual!

I am so glad you have even more evidence you discovered. I think there is more to LS than has been revealed. He is keeping the totality of her true nature and how much she functions under wraps…to some purpose. I think it gives more tension in the scenes with Brienne and adds tension to upcoming scenes with Brienne, Jaime, and other stuff. It is good writing.

Because if someone asked me right now, "hey, how exactly do you think LS would act or what would she say, etc. if she does encounter one of her kids, Blackfish, or some other people and/or events in future. And I must say, I can't answer it. So, the author totally did a great job with that.

I agree with everyone to still to hold out longer on just assuming GOHH is a COTF. There are reasons I like it, and reasons I don't. I am willing to look at other possibilities too.

And bear with me guys. It's been busy and I have to wrap up Beric part 2.

[LongRider]

I forgot an albino-Ghost! Derp! Of course. So three of the Stark kids have albinos in their lives, Bran and BR, Jon and Ghost, and Arya and the GoHH. Also, relating to all the Starks are the albino weirwoods.

[Hrafntýr]

The Rat Cook was also turned into a monstrous white rat, though the story doesn't say that he had red eyes. Still, it's a connection to our riverlands web, insofar as the Rat Cook's story is about the violation of guest right. Also, it's my belief that Ser Shadrich's shield, which features a large white mouse with red eyes, is a reference to the Rat Cook; I think that this is a clue that he's actually a northern sympathizer motivated by what happened at the Red Wedding (I also wonder if his place of origin, Shady Glen, might not be a reference to its synonym, Duskendale). And Shadrich is now with Sansa.

[LongRider]

The Rat Cook was also turned into a monstrous white rat, though the story doesn't say that he had red eyes. Still, it's a connection to our riverlands web, insofar as the Rat Cook's story is about the violation of guest right. Also, it's my belief that Ser Shadrich's shield, which features a large white mouse with red eyes, is a reference to the Rat Cook; I think that this is a clue that he's actually a northern sympathizer motivated by what happened at the Red Wedding (I also wonder if his place of origin, Shady Glen, might not be a reference to its synonym, Duskendale). And Shadrich is now with Sansa.

Interesting thoughts Hrafntyr, I had forgotten about the Mad Mouse's shield. A northern sympathizer tho? He tells Bri he's looking for Sansa for Varys's reward for her. Hmmmm.

[Hrafntýr]

Interesting thoughts Hrafntyr, I had forgotten about the Mad Mouse's shield. A northern sympathizer tho? He tells Bri he's looking for Sansa for Varys's reward for her. Hmmmm.

Yeah, I think that, and the idea that he's working for Baelish, may not be true, though admittedly this is entirely based upon my interpretation of his rather unusual personal sigil.

[Crow's eye in the sky]

The Rat Cook was also turned into a monstrous white rat, though the story doesn't say that he had red eyes. Still, it's a connection to our riverlands web, insofar as the Rat Cook's story is about the violation of guest right. Also, it's my belief that Ser Shadrich's shield, which features a large white mouse with red eyes, is a reference to the Rat Cook; I think that this is a clue that he's actually a northern sympathizer motivated by what happened at the Red Wedding (I also wonder if his place of origin, Shady Glen, might not be a reference to its synonym, Duskendale). And Shadrich is now with Sansa.

The only problem I see, is he has no Northern connections that we know of. Since you mention his shield, maybe it's me, but its brown and blue field reminds me alot of the Tully's.

Interesting thoughts Hrafntyr, I had forgotten about the Mad Mouse's shield. A northern sympathizer tho? He tells Bri he's looking for Sansa for Varys's reward for her. Hmmmm.

Here's my theory

http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/123316-does-the-mad-mouse-mouse-work-for-varys/

[LongRider]

Good Morning Webbers! Long time no see! :)

I have an idea and I need you all to talk me down! :idea:

It goes like this;

We saw Jon help Stannis to make allies with the Northern Mountain Clans to fight with him at WF. We also saw Jon realize that allying with the wildings would be to their and the NW's advantage.

So, the Vale mountain clans were befriended by Tyrion, some when to KL with him and fought in Tywin's army along the way. (at the Blackwater too, didn't they?) When they went back to the Vale, they were armed with steel.

Ser Brynden spent much time in the Vale. He's now AWOL. Could there be a possibility that he could be in contact with the Vale clans? Any chance that he could be negotiating with them to fight with the BWB when the shit hits the fan? :fencing:

I can't get this idea out of my head! Talk me down Webbers! I need a dose of reality.

[Crow's eye in the sky]

The

Good Morning Webbers! Long time no see! :)

I have an idea and I need you all to talk me down! :idea:

It goes like this;

We saw Jon help Stannis to make allies with the Northern Mountain Clans to fight with him at WF. We also saw Jon realize that allying with the wildings would be to their and the NW's advantage.

So, the Vale mountain clans were befriended by Tyrion, some when to KL with him and fought in Tywin's army along the way. (at the Blackwater too, didn't they?) When they went back to the Vale, they were armed with steel.

Ser Brynden spent much time in the Vale. He's now AWOL. Could there be a possibility that he could be in contact with the Vale clans? Any chance that he could be negotiating with them to fight with the BWB when the shit hits the fan? :fencing:

I can't get this idea out of my head! Talk me down Webbers! I need a dose of reality.

The northern clans were fiercely loyal to the Starks, and unless i'm mistaken, the Starks have blood ties to at least one of them. As a general trend, strong supporters of the Starks went for Stannis and his promise of vengence.

The Vale clans, are a different kettle of the same fish. They refuse to accept the rule of the Arryns, and only joined Tyrion at the promise of arms and a regime change. And yes most of them fought at the Blackwater, save for Shagga's clan which is still in the Kingswood.

the Knight of the Gate is probably to the Vale Clans what the Sheriff of Nottingham was to Robin Hood.

While the idea sounds cool, (and rebellions do make for queer bedfellows,) it seems a bit of a stretch.

First of all, what would bring Brynden to the Vale?

Second, unless i'm mistaken, he is probably more interested in his nephew who is heading west, as well as other events closer to home

[LongRider]

I was thinking more of them as fighters out of the Vale, like a guerrilla force. Like I said. I need some reality here! LOL!

I know it's a stretch and Jon's success with the wildings is what helped put this in my head. War is heading to Westeros, from the North, chaos in KL, Aegon from the south and of course Winter is Coming. Oh, and don't forget the Ironborn. If the clans could ally with someone it would be their advantage I think.

Doesn't mean it would happen tho. Thanks for your comments. :cheers:

[Wizz-The-Smith]

Good Morning Webbers! Long time no see! :)

I have an idea and I need you all to talk me down! :idea:

It goes like this;

We saw Jon help Stannis to make allies with the Northern Mountain Clans to fight with him at WF. We also saw Jon realize that allying with the wildings would be to their and the NW's advantage.

So, the Vale mountain clans were befriended by Tyrion, some when to KL with him and fought in Tywin's army along the way. (at the Blackwater too, didn't they?) When they went back to the Vale, they were armed with steel.

Ser Brynden spent much time in the Vale. He's now AWOL. Could there be a possibility that he could be in contact with the Vale clans? Any chance that he could be negotiating with them to fight with the BWB when the shit hits the fan? :fencing:

I can't get this idea out of my head! Talk me down Webbers! I need a dose of reality.

Hey Longie. When it comes to the Blackfish, we literally have no clue, so this is as good an idea as any, he could turn up anywhere !

It may be good to bounce some ideas of each other.

My first thoughts on this were, as the BF was Knight of the gate for ages, he probably wouldn't have the best opinion of the Vale clans. And if they sought out BF, their claim to be friends with the half man, a Lannister, may not hold much weight with the Blackfish. And I suppose, if he were in the Vale, the first people he would parlay with are the Lords etc.. and their armies are untouched from the war. However we should never discount anything, and they are extra bodies in the Vale that we know can fight. :dunno:

Seeing as you put your ideas for the future of BF out there, I'll join you in my wild guess ! :)

I actually don't see him going to the Vale, but rather staying in the RL's and trying to uphold his role as 'Warden of the Southern Marches'. The following is from the Wiki....

Warden of the Southern Marches is a title created by King Robb Stark, King in the North, for Ser Brynden Tully. Robb creates the title when he marches north to attend the wedding of Edmure Tully and retake Moat Cailin. Remaining at Riverrun, Brynden is named warden and tasked with defending the Riverlands, the southern territory of Robb's combined Kingdom of the Trident and the North.

There is also this exchange with Jaime at RR....

“[ Jaime.] Will you exchange the Westerlings for Edmure?”

“No. My king entrusted his queen to my keeping, and I swore to keep her safe. I will not hand her over to a Frey noose.”

“The girl has been pardoned. No harm will come to her. You have my word on that.”

“Your word of honor?” Ser Brynden raised an eyebrow. “Do you even know what honor is?” [ Jaime VI, AFFC.]

I feel if he can still uphold that vow, he will. So basically, purely speculative but I think that BF has already met with some of the BWB after swimming out of RR. Maybe some of the ones that left LSH, or some of the River Lords ? Maybe even LSH herself ? :crying: And I feel he will be involved In the attempted escape of Edmure and Jeyne. I must admit I kind of expect him to persue the Warden of the Southern Marches thing, and do all he can to reclaim the RL's.

I think this may happen at the Golden Tooth, on route to Casterly Rock. When Robb had a victory there, it was helped by a secret or blocked path that Greywind found. IIRC, Blackfish was with Robb in this attack, and definitely helped in the foray through the Westerlands. So he could perhaps use this knowledge to his or the BWB advantage in any future attack ?

Really, any guess is as good as the next one ! Bring on TWOW ! :P

[LongRider]

Hey Longie. When it comes to the Blackfish, we literally have no clue, so this is as good an idea as any, he could turn up anywhere !

It may be good to bounce some ideas of each other.

My first thoughts on this were, as the BF was Knight of the gate for ages, he probably wouldn't have the best opinion of the Vale clans. And if they sought out BF, their claim to be friends with the half man, a Lannister, may not hold much weight with the Blackfish. And I suppose, if he were in the Vale, the first people he would parlay with are the Lords etc.. and their armies are untouched from the war. However we should never discount anything, and they are extra bodies in the Vale that we know can fight. :dunno:

Seeing as you put your ideas for the future of BF out there, I'll join you in my wild guess ! :)

I actually don't see him going to the Vale, but rather staying in the RL's and trying to uphold his role as 'Warden of the Southern Marches'. The following is from the Wiki....

There is also this exchange with Jaime at RR....

“[ Jaime.] Will you exchange the Westerlings for Edmure?”

“No. My king entrusted his queen to my keeping, and I swore to keep her safe. I will not hand her over to a Frey noose.”

“The girl has been pardoned. No harm will come to her. You have my word on that.”

“Your word of honor?” Ser Brynden raised an eyebrow. “Do you even know what honor is?” [ Jaime VI, AFFC.]

I feel if he can still uphold that vow, he will. So basically, purely speculative but I think that BF has already met with some of the BWB after swimming out of RR. Maybe some of the ones that left LSH, or some of the River Lords ? Maybe even LSH herself ? :crying: And I feel he will be involved In the attempted escape of Edmure and Jeyne. I must admit I kind of expect him to persue the Warden of the Southern Marches thing, and do all he can to reclaim the RL's.

I think this may happen at the Golden Tooth, on route to Casterly Rock. When Robb had a victory there, it was helped by a secret or blocked path that Greywind found. IIRC, Blackfish was with Robb in this attack, and definitely helped in the foray through the Westerlands. So he could perhaps use this knowledge to his or the BWB advantage in any future attack ?

Really, any guess is as good as the next one ! Bring on TWOW ! :P

Great stuff as usual Wizz! I forgot about that vow and I also think we missed it when we discussed BL. We know he is smart, and really knows the RL well, and would want to free Edmure if he could. In some ways, he's like the Stark kids, so few of his family is left alive, that ones who are alive become really important to him.

Plus, Tom'O7s could have told him of the BWB safehouses and this would help him to travel across country. I like it! Glad I brought my idea up, as discussion is what I was hoping for. Go Blackfish!!

Oh, one other thing I wanted to mention. The BL is a mature man, he's no kid like the most of the Starks. He pushed back against Hoster when Hoster tried to force marriage on him and went his own way. But, he stayed in the family circle by being the Vale's Knight of the Gate. So who knows who his trusted friends and allies are.

[Crow's eye in the sky]

I was thinking more of them as fighters out of the Vale, like a guerrilla force. Like I said. I need some reality here! LOL!

I know it's a stretch and Jon's success with the wildings is what helped put this in my head. War is heading to Westeros, from the North, chaos in KL, Aegon from the south and of course Winter is Coming. Oh, and don't forget the Ironborn. If the clans could ally with someone it would be their advantage I think.

Doesn't mean it would happen tho. Thanks for your comments. :cheers:

Well, now that you put it that way, who will the clans ultimately fight for?

They might as well have Team Dany misfit written all over them, but Dany is still in Essos.

Could they side with Stannis if he comes far enough south. He's learned to be practical even though he would rather hang their type then accept them to his cause?

I don't see another Lannister backed contract happening, considering how the Blackwater ended for many of them.

I'm not sure if team Aegon will be anywhere near the edge of the Vale, though I don't have a strong opinion either way with Team Aegon and the clans.

On the possibility of a brotherhood without Banner alliance, they are probably seen as armed robbers to the people of the Riverlands. Correct me if i'm wrong, but I believe the clans have been raiding into the Riverlands north of the Trident. The BWB has made a point of eliminating things of that category (certain Lannister Bannermen, Brave Companions, and other reptiles)

[LongRider]

Well, now that you put it that way, who will the clans ultimately fight for?

They might as well have Team Dany misfit written all over them, but Dany is still in Essos.

Could they side with Stannis if he comes far enough south. He's learned to be practical even though he would rather hang their type then accept them to his cause?

I don't see another Lannister backed contract happening, considering how the Blackwater ended for many of them.

I'm not sure if team Aegon will be anywhere near the edge of the Vale, though I don't have a strong opinion either way with Team Aegon and the clans.

On the possibility of a brotherhood without Banner alliance, they are probably seen as armed robbers to the people of the Riverlands. Correct me if i'm wrong, but I believe the clans have been raiding into the Riverlands north of the Trident. The BWB has made a point of eliminating things of that category (certain Lannister Bannermen, Brave Companions, and other reptiles)

Ah, see why I needed help with this idea! My idea was they would fight with the BWB against whomever I guess. :dunno:

They did fight for the Lannisters before and do like Tyrion, but he's gone. Could he show up in the Vale w/Dany and look them up perhaps? They would remember the Halfman, so perhaps they'll sign up with the Golden Co.?

Ok. ok, that won't happen.

[Wizz-The-Smith]

Great stuff as usual Wizz! I forgot about that vow and I also think we missed it when we discussed BL. We know he is smart, and really knows the RL well, and would want to free Edmure if he could. In some ways, he's like the Stark kids, so few of his family is left alive, that ones who are alive become really important to him.

Plus, Tom'O7s could have told him of the BWB safehouses and this would help him to travel across country. I like it! Glad I brought my idea up, as discussion is what I was hoping for. Go Blackfish!!

Oh, one other thing I wanted to mention. The BL is a mature man, he's no kid like the most of the Starks. He pushed back against Hoster when Hoster tried to force marriage on him and went his own way. But, he stayed in the family circle by being the Vale's Knight of the Gate. So who knows who his trusted friends and allies are.

1st Bold.] Yeah, I wasn't clear either way on an opinion back then, and a lot thought the Vale the best option. I didn't quite know either way. But having read many a blog and thread on this, I started to get a picture in my head of what it may be. As I mentioned though, it could still go a multitude of ways.

2nd Bold.] Exactly. And on that note, Jaime let them have a generous amount of time to sort out the handing over of RR, can't recall exactly how long, but enough time for the BF to have swam ten leagues from RR in Jaime's opinion. And therefore, probably enough time for the various players within RR to have a chat, and maybe set some plans ?

[LongRider]

1st Bold.] Yeah, I wasn't clear either way on an opinion back then, and a lot thought the Vale the best option. I didn't quite know either way. But having read many a blog and thread on this, I started to get a picture in my head of what it may be. As I mentioned though, it could still go a multitude of ways.

2nd Bold.] Exactly. And on that note, Jaime let them have a generous amount of time to sort out the handing over of RR, can't recall exactly how long, but enough time for the BF to have swam ten leagues from RR in Jaime's opinion. And therefore, probably enough time for the various players within RR to have a chat, and maybe set some plans ?

And I would think ole Tom wasn't singing about no floppy fish either. I think the BF intimidated Jaime when they had their little riverside chat. He did give BF plenty of time to make alternative plans. I like this idea better than he's hiding in RR itself.

[Wizz-The-Smith]

To add to any vow regarding Jeyne. There's also the BF's house words '' Family, Duty, Honour.'' Although Lysa [ assuming he doesn't know.] and SR are family, there is a nephew in the hands of the Lannisters with his life potentially in danger. And I don't think he has any reason to think that Lysa and SR are in trouble. With the time available in RR, surely BF would know of the information network formed in the RL's, and perhaps seek it out ? :dunno:

[LongRider]

To add to any vow regarding Jeyne. There's also the BF's house words '' Family, Duty, Honour.'' Although Lysa [ assuming he doesn't know.] and SR are family, there is a nephew in the hands of the Lannisters with his life potentially in danger. And I don't think he has any reason to think that Lysa and SR are in trouble. With the time available in RR, surely BF would know of the information network formed in the RL's, and perhaps seek it out ? :dunno:

You just brought up a good point. How widespread is the news of Lysa's death outside the Vale? Now finding that out might just make the BF want to return there and give ole LF a good long tickle. (and not in a good way) However, currently, Edmure is alive, so freeing him just may be his priority.

[Wizz-The-Smith]

You just brought up a good point. How widespread is the news of Lysa's death outside the Vale? Now finding that out might just make the BF want to return there and give ole LF a good long tickle. (and not in a good way) However, currently, Edmure is alive, so freeing him just may be his priority.

It's hard to tell, but my guess is that BF doesn't know. If any ravens were sent out, he doesn't seem to be in position to be privy to that message. It's only a matter of time I suppose, but as you say, Edmure is alive and so is King Robb's wife, so hopefully you're right, and that may well be his priority. And perhaps also going a long way to saving the RL's as Warden ? :P

You're right to point out that BF may want a little chat with LF when the time arises. :)