The Riverlands Web V.5

[Liz Stark-Targaryen]

Just caught up! Love lurking in the Riverlands Web -- the limericks a few pages ago were just great!

booknerd2, love your observations about Harwin. Whenever I think about him, I always hear this line in my head:

"Leave the boy, Lem," said Harwin. "Arya did start it, I have no doubt. She was much the same at Winterfell." B)

I spend most of my time on the boards in Targaryen threads. We've been talking a lot about the role of the Riverlands in the backstory in various threads. The Riverlands are extremely significant in the R+L story, and in the same places where the current canon characters have been. It's all very interesting...

[Hrafntýr]

Your discussion of the Freys, booknerd, got me wondering what the response from KL will be if and when the "valuable hostages" are freed en route from the Twins. It's hard to imagine Cersei doing much more than expressing her anger at Walder. Will Ser Bonifer and the Holy Eighty-Six be marshaled into action? In any event, I think that Walder is soon going to realize just how high and dry he's left his family, with his two allies, Bolton and Lannister, now totally preoccupied with their own dramas, and everyone else in the Riverlands turned against him. We've said this countless times before, but losing those hostages finally frees up many of his enemies to act against him.

I wonder, though, if somebody is going to assume a leadership role in the Riverlands. One thing that I noticed in the worldbook section on the Riverlands was a pattern of the Riverlands houses being willing to ally themselves with a powerful outsider in order to rid themselves of an unpopular lord or king, only to find that the outsider ends up imposing his rule with no improvement in conditions. I wonder if we're supposed to see the Frey alliance with Lannister/Bolton as the example of this, or if we should anticipate some such alliance being made in the upcoming book (and if so, who makes the alliance, and with whom?).

[Le Cygne]

I've had a look last day or so, and there are a couple of threads on this, with similar thoughts. There isn't a great deal to go on, and nothing we haven't noticed I don't think, but I'll go through some of the points made...

- Beric's appearance on his weirwood throne resembling BR and the old gods, the text of both meetings is similar.

- GOHH appearance, prophetic albino living amongst weirwood roots

- The mention of the weirwood whispering to her was discussed, BR again. I also noticed a 'link line' between the prophecies '' The old gods stir and will not let me sleep.'' Interesting line, perhaps busy ?

- There was a lot of talk of what BR had or hadn't influenced, but relative to the stumps here, we have Jaime's dream when he takes a nap on the weirwood stump before going back for Brienne. Speculative, but possible evidence of influencing another dream through a weirwood stump ?

- We have this from the GOHH '' She cackled again.'' Look in your fires, pink priest, and you will see. Not here, though, not here, you'll see nothing here. This place belongs to the old gods still.....'' Another reminder of the old gods, mentioned alongside R'hollor. Speculation about Mel burning the godswoods, maybe stopping the red gods powers ?

I couldn't really find any other opinions on the BWB following the UnCat prophecy, and have yet to cover this really thoroughly, but thought I'd check in. As you mentioned before, it does conjure up some cool thoughts, but alas with much of it involving BR, we may have to wait to really understand this as it unfolds in TWOW. :D

Also, I feel she will be in the next book. For reasons above, but also I think she may know 'much and more' on Summerhall, and I feel, among others, that she will somehow play a role in that storyline. That is another subject though. :P

Cool, neat finds. I like the Jaime weirwood dream connection. And that's a good point, the Ghost of High Heart will be around, we need to hear more about Summerhall.

[Le Cygne]

So, we don’t get the full impact yet of the Freys knowing they are utterly doomed. We get a smaller fraction of that singularly through Merret. Merret is an eerie piece of writing. It really is horrible. He knows he is going to die…LS being Cat is revealed to him. No matter what he says or does, he pleads and cajoles, and it is all for naught. It was scary and you can only imagine what is racing in his mind.

A bunch of good stuff to think about. I thought this was interesting, the way he wrote it, we became increasingly annoyed with Merrett, he didn't want us to like him. He's never had the guts to stand up and be counted, and now his number is up.

Jaime, remembering him (not so) fondly: When Jaime had arrived, Merrett Frey had been the castle bully, lording it over all the younger boys. Then he tried to bully me.

Also, looking at the Frey tree, you mentioned this before, Donnel Waynwood replaced the Blackfish as the Knight of the Bloody Gate, and Sandor Frey is his squire (his mother is a Waynwood). He does like his little hints!

[LongRider]

Your discussion of the Freys, booknerd, got me wondering what the response from KL will be if and when the "valuable hostages" are freed en route from the Twins. It's hard to imagine Cersei doing much more than expressing her anger at Walder. Will Ser Bonifer and the Holy Eighty-Six be marshaled into action? In any event, I think that Walder is soon going to realize just how high and dry he's left his family, with his two allies, Bolton and Lannister, now totally preoccupied with their own dramas, and everyone else in the Riverlands turned against him. We've said this countless times before, but losing those hostages finally frees up many of his enemies to act against him.

I wonder, though, if somebody is going to assume a leadership role in the Riverlands. One thing that I noticed in the worldbook section on the Riverlands was a pattern of the Riverlands houses being willing to ally themselves with a powerful outsider in order to rid themselves of an unpopular lord or king, only to find that the outsider ends up imposing his rule with no improvement in conditions. I wonder if we're supposed to see the Frey alliance with Lannister/Bolton as the example of this, or if we should anticipate some such alliance being made in the upcoming book (and if so, who makes the alliance, and with whom?).

If Bonifer and his Holy Eighty Six are marshalled, for some reason I see this coming from Lord Tarly rather than Cersei. He was named Justicar by Kevan Lannister and seems like the type of hardass that would be sure to pursue the men who free the hostages.

[LongRider]

I love the thoughts about the relationship between the GoHH's prophecies and Beric's revival of Catelyn. It's a beautifully twisted little knot: the GoHH foreseeing something that will happen on account of the BwB hearing her prophecy! Though we know that there's a little more involved in this "fated" event, insofar as it is also dependent upon Nymeria retrieving Catelyn's body from the river. Plus, were the BwB only at HH at that particular time to get that particular prophecy because of the "capture" of Arya? It's also an interesting little knot of religions, insofar as we've got the interaction of the old gods (GoHH, possibly Nymeria), R'hllorism (the kiss), and possibly the Seven (given Beric's seven deaths).

Really good point! So many great posts this weekend!

[Le Cygne]

And LeCygne totally called it and I had forgotten about it. That is right. Harwin did NOT want them to keep the pups way back in book 1. Damn it…Harwin is around when anything SIGNIFICANT goes down. He knows friggin’ everybody. He literally has seen it all. Now we just have to see what he’s been up to. At this point, nothing surprises me or will regarding Harwin…lol!

Harwin is Everyman of the North, it is known. He's the man on the scene.

[Karmarni]

Catching up on Riverlands. I think Lady Stoneheart exists because of her children. Because Cat left Bran. She chose Robb. She encouraged Ned to go. She didn't see the girls when she went to KL. She has a lot of guilt. I'm not dissing Cat, I like her and think highly of her. But the above is her 'Mom' guilt trip I think. This guilt trip, along with her own cruel death, trust in the 'old traditions' and the tit-for-tat exchange that is understood by the nobility (the old ways, if I can imagine the future for a moment), these are the things that underlie the creation of Lady Stoneheart.

Very good points, booknerd2! also like throwing thoughts around and seeing if something sticks. Minimum, it provides things to think about.

I totally agree about the Kingswood Brotherhood parallels. Jaime as the common character is interesting too. GRRM has said that there will be action in the Reach in TWoW, but it appears the Riverlands are reaching a turning point too. Jaime's arrival and meet-up with the BWB and Lady Stoneheart is building toward much further action here in the Riverlands. I also agree about the Holy Eighty Six, LongRider. The Elder Brother and the Brothers on the QI (Brotherhood without Banners + Brothers of the Faith?), the rise of the Warrior's Sons, the lost Blackfish (I think he might be with the Blackwoods or on his way to the QI), the children that Gendry has seemingly become a disgruntled protector of - there's more, but it's becoming clear that if these various factions can be brought together by a strong leader, they will be able to make some changes in what is happening in the Riverlands.

Beric seems now to be the precursor to what will be the new "Band" in the Riverlands. Since he was initally sent by Ned, it makes sense to me that the new faction will be able to actually get the job done and protect the Riverlands. What they need is a leader that they will follow. One with good ideas, perhaps a bit more 'peaceful' than LS (not saying random Frey hangings isn't a good thing, just that there are better ways to fight and/or provide a positive influence), military knowledge and connections to the various factions. Jaime fits quite well. But he'd need someone who was strong and a good fighter too, since he's not as capable as he was.

[Booknerd2]

Catching up on Riverlands. I think Lady Stoneheart exists because of her children. Because Cat left Bran. She chose Robb. She encouraged Ned to go. She didn't see the girls when she went to KL. She has a lot of guilt. I'm not dissing Cat, I like her and think highly of her. But the above is her 'Mom' guilt trip I think. This guilt trip, along with her own cruel death, trust in the 'old traditions' and the tit-for-tat exchange that is understood by the nobility (the old ways, if I can imagine the future for a moment), these are the things that underlie the creation of Lady Stoneheart.

Very good points, booknerd2! also like throwing thoughts around and seeing if something sticks. Minimum, it provides things to think about.

I totally agree about the Kingswood Brotherhood parallels. Jaime as the common character is interesting too. GRRM has said that there will be action in the Reach in TWoW, but it appears the Riverlands are reaching a turning point too. Jaime's arrival and meet-up with the BWB and Lady Stoneheart is building toward much further action here in the Riverlands. I also agree about the Holy Eighty Six, LongRider. The Elder Brother and the Brothers on the QI (Brotherhood without Banners + Brothers of the Faith?), the rise of the Warrior's Sons, the lost Blackfish (I think he might be with the Blackwoods or on his way to the QI), the children that Gendry has seemingly become a disgruntled protector of - there's more, but it's becoming clear that if these various factions can be brought together by a strong leader, they will be able to make some changes in what is happening in the Riverlands.

Beric seems now to be the precursor to what will be the new "Band" in the Riverlands. Since he was initally sent by Ned, it makes sense to me that the new faction will be able to actually get the job done and protect the Riverlands. What they need is a leader that they will follow. One with good ideas, perhaps a bit more 'peaceful' than LS (not saying random Frey hangings isn't a good thing, just that there are better ways to fight and/or provide a positive influence), military knowledge and connections to the various factions. Jaime fits quite well. But he'd need someone who was strong and a good fighter too, since he's not as capable as he was.

That is the billion dollar question with LS: How much is she holding on to, transferred over from her old life, how much is old or new? How many memories? (Which we know the possibility of losing them or becoming sort of disoriented is a big problem Beric dealt with). And I like that you put that thought forward. I know I focus so much on the revenge aspect and what she plans on doing next or trying to predict it, I had never considered possible guilty feelings. She did have some in life, did have doubts about some things she would have liked to do but couldn't or things she would have liked to change….so did any of that carry over? Is it deeper because they were her children she loved so much? For example….some out there stuff. Say like she heard word that Arya is alive or she pops up, or she hears Rickon is alive, does she cry, show joy, is she numb? I think there are feelings still there. I still look for a hint in her caressing Robb's crown and taking it in. Also, at Brienne's mini-trial, she did get passionate at points, even calling her "false friend" which appears to be very human and emotive.

Things are changing. Some are no longer intimidated by powerful lords and banners in certain areas, and the power and prestige they hold, and are growing daring. So many groups/factions have been popping up. Many our religious in origin and the BWB grew and expanded their network and influence right under many noses.

I said before that I think there is a reason the author showed us "trouble in paradise" in the BWB, and it will be interesting to see any shifts if and when Jaime or BF becomes involved or something else happens.

[Le Cygne]

Catching up on Riverlands. I think Lady Stoneheart exists because of her children. Because Cat left Bran. She chose Robb. She encouraged Ned to go. She didn't see the girls when she went to KL. She has a lot of guilt. I'm not dissing Cat, I like her and think highly of her. But the above is her 'Mom' guilt trip I think. This guilt trip, along with her own cruel death, trust in the 'old traditions' and the tit-for-tat exchange that is understood by the nobility (the old ways, if I can imagine the future for a moment), these are the things that underlie the creation of Lady Stoneheart.

I agree, survivor guilt is a tough one. I think Arya felt the same way, Sandor saved her instead of letting her save her mother, which he knew she couldn't do, and he was the safe person she could take this out on. It's not actual guilt, but it feels like it. If only I did this, or if only I did that. And why am I still alive, and they are dead. Then Catelyn was taken so horribly, watching her son die, as his mother, she blames herself for not protecting him. It's not her fault, but I agree, I think it's motivating her, along with the desire for vengeance.

[Le Cygne]

She did have some in life, did have doubts about some things she would have liked to do but couldn't or things she would have liked to change….so did any of that carry over? Is it deeper because they were her children she loved so much? For example….some out there stuff. Say like she heard word that Arya is alive or she pops up, or she hears Rickon is alive, does she cry, show joy, is she numb? I think there are feelings still there. I still look for a hint in her caressing Robb's crown and taking it in. Also, at Brienne's mini-trial, she did get passionate at points, even calling her "false friend" which appears to be very human and emotive.

Agree. Certain things must have carried over, such strong emotions. And like you say, there are signs, like the crown. And false friend.

I said before that I think there is a reason the author showed us "trouble in paradise" in the BWB, and it will be interesting to see any shifts if and when Jaime or BF becomes involved or something else happens.

People would follow the Blackfish, but Jaime could be useful as a tactical strategist. But there's the trust barrier to overcome with Jaime.

[Booknerd2]

We are given very little info about the true status of LS and how she functions, feels, thinks or whatever the nature of her is, and I think that is for a reason.

But, the biggest thing for me, that stands out, is that Robb's crown moment of hers. Because it is only once, but I think the author might have thrown us a bone. And the same for "false friend." We see her get testy over Brienne, with her there, and it is a very human moment. Very un-creature like, which sometimes, that is toyed with in all LS parts of the story. That she is this thing that rose, and he can't give away too much, but there is more to it, I think.

But he has used this technique before and certainly with the Sandor telling Arya he wants to serve the Starks. I remember as a first time reader with that very small piece of dialogue that was never mentioned before and never again after either. He had spent so much time building Sandor one way, or as him seeking a certain plan and destination, a seeming goal, and then that comes out of left field and whalloped me. Obviously in hindsight I see a lot of things about the Sandor character that you just don't get on a first read, way before I joined the forums, or even had time to ponder ideas or do a few re-reads.

So for the crown and Sandor's Robb intentions…it is a technique he has used.

Anything that stands out that he slips in and asks us to interpret and it is like "one of these things is not like the others." I take notice. Those 2 examples are like that. The crown tells us that something is most likely running deeper in LS and she is more tied to humanity than maybe we thought at first glance. The Sandor example shows us that he has plans that include Starks and Sansa and changing his life, that he really has no desire to sell Arya, and he doesn't just want to get his money back and go about his business somewhere far away, in case anyone had thought that.

But with the whole "revival" of people. I think we will find out more regarding Thoros reviving Beric, and Beric reviving LS, because there are a lot loose ends. Many differences and unsolved questions.

I am wondering if we see anyone, maybe Jon as some theorize? Brought back the “right” way, you know, if there is a "right" way, and Cat was a skewed happenstance and not done right on top of her being dead a few days. I still don't understand how Beric thought he could do it, and why it was different than what Thoros did to him, but it somehow still "worked." He did get LS up and moving.

[LongRider]

Beric told Thoros that being revived so many times was too much, yet he revived Cat. I always have to wonder; was Beric hoping that blowing his fire into her it would enliven her and let him, at last, be the dead man he actually was?

[Wizz-The-Smith]

Nice posts on LSH guys. I agree there is more to her than it seems, or at least I hold out some hope ! ^_^ Trawling through the many blogs on the net, I came across a cool piece on LSH's awareness, or how much she may or may not remember. [ Zincpiccalilli - The Grand Northern Conspiracy - Part 2.] Nothing absolutely concrete, but some interesting thoughts nonetheless..... [ I have trimmed down to suit our chat, but kudos to Zincpiccalilli.]

[ Jaime ] turned back to Lady Mariya [ Darry, wife of Merrett Frey.]. “The outlaws who killed your husband… Was it Lord Beric’s band?”
“So we thought at first.” Though Lady Mariya’s hair was streaked with grey, she was still a handsome woman. “The killers scattered when they left Oldstones. Lord Vypren tracked one band to Fairmarket but lost them there. Black Walder led hounds and hunters into Hag’s Mire after the others. The peasants denied seeing them, but when questioned sharply they sang a different song. They spoke of a one-eyed man and another who wore a yellow cloak… and a woman, cloaked and hooded. …The peasants would have us believe that her face was torn and scarred, her eyes terrible to look upon. They claim she led the outlaws.”
“Led them?” Jaime found that hard to believe. “Beric Dondarrion and the red priest…”
“…were not seen.” Lady Mariya sounded certain.
“How far did Black Walder track this hooded woman and her men ?”
“His hounds picked up their scent again north of Hag’s Mire,” the older woman told him. “He swears that he was no more than half a day behind them when they vanished into the Neck.”

“I would not put it past the crannogmen to shelter outlaws,” said Ser Danwell Frey. [ Jaime IV, AFFC.]

This is obviously Jack-Be-Lucky, Lem Lemoncloak and Lady Stoneheart. But this isn't the first time that some version of Catelyn Stark has visited Hag’s Mire. In ASOS....

Five days later, scouts rode back to warn them that the rising waters had washed out the wooden bridge at Fairmarket.....
Robb looked to Catelyn. “Is there another bridge ?”
“No. And the fords will be impassable.” She tried to remember. “If we cannot cross the Blue Fork, we’ll have to go around it, through Sevenstreams and Hag’s Mire.” [ Catelyn V, ASOS.]

This is where Robb’s host pass through Oldstones, Sevenstreams and Hag’s Mire. His last council as King in the North was there. And within this part of the text, there is the will of course.... Could LSH have remembered ?

It doesn't go north with Galbart Glover and Maege Mormont, who carry false letters, some fear it may be lost in the mayhem of the Red Wedding. Another possibility, however, is that the document was hidden in Hag’s Mire and has now been retrieved by LSH.

If this is the case, that could mean LSH is more capable of rational thought than we maybe believed. And the theory goes, she is remembering the past, and the will, and perhaps acting on it ? Even if the will isn't involved, her movements perhaps shows some cognitive thought ?

Anyway, as we've mentioned, UnCat seems unusually contemplative in her final AFFC scene as she ponders over Robb’s crown.....

'' A trestle table had been set up across the cave, in a cleft in the rock. Behind it sat a woman all in grey, cloaked and hooded. In her hands was a crown, a bronze circlet ringed by iron swords. She was studying it, her fingers stroking the blades as if to test their sharpness. Her eyes glimmered under her hood.'' [ Brienne VIII, AFFC.]

Is this showing some memory of the land/previous experiences [ Hag's mire ] ? While I agree there could be family memories/guilt, could she have been contemplating the will while stroking the crown in her final chapter appearance ? Could they have retrieved the will somehow [ hidden somewhere.] ? What was LSH doing in the Neck ? Perhaps some off page meetings with a certain HR ? At the very least, as you've mentioned bookie, if not, we can throw it out there, and it may lead to some ideas or cool discussion. :)

[Wizz-The-Smith]

Real quick question, and then for the thread I have a massive post next, but I will explain that in a few, crap is rolling in my mind faster than I can type so I am apologizing now for that next post…lol….did I miss or am forgetting something? Why did she call Thoros the pink priest?

Without digging through all the text, I think there were some mentions of Thoros' red cloak having faded somewhat, I could be wrong, but any fading would look pink I suppose ? :dunno: Also IIRC, when we see through Nym's eyes as Arya, and she is retrieving Catelyn's body from the river, she spies the men approaching and describes them, I think she describes Thoros as wearing pink. I have taken it as a play on the GOHH's descriptions of the BWB. The great oaf and the pink priest ! Ha ! Confident and cocky prophetic albino dwarf ! :P

[LongRider]

Without digging through all the text, I think there were some mentions of Thoros' red cloak having faded somewhat, I could be wrong, but any fading would look pink I suppose ? :dunno: Also IIRC, when we see through Nym's eyes as Arya, and she is retrieving Catelyn's body from the river, she spies the men approaching and describes them, I think she describes Thoros as wearing pink. I have taken it as a play on the GOHH's descriptions of the BWB. The great oaf and the pink priest ! Ha ! Confident and cocky prophetic albino dwarf ! :P

Yes, Thoros's grab is faded pink instead of red. Her trek into Hag's Mire and Neck may have nothing to do with Robb's will, and simply be a way of losing the Frey's coming after them. The crannogmen, maybe they did help LSH because of the BWB?

[Wizz-The-Smith]

On a side note, I think it is safe to say that Ghost of High Heart is a COTF, right? So right now I am pondering GOHH, Arya, and Nymeria.

Any further connections there that anyone can see?

Jesus, we’ve gotten so much COTF shout outs of information in the series, and in AWOIAF, I would think that when Big Nyms shows up, I am wondering if GOHH will know some of the deal with her and Arya.

First off, great post on the Frey's bookie ! Nice work. :)

As for the bold, I must confess, I seem to go against this forums popular opinion on this. While I agree there is a connection there between the GOHH and anything representing the old god's [ Nym's, BR etc..] I don't think she is a COTF. It doesn't feel right to me, as the description of the children is so different to that of the GOHH. The following is from the wiki....

The children were smaller than men with nut-brown skin, dappled like a deer's with paler spots. They had large ears that could hear things that no man could hear.

They usually had large eyes, great golden cat's eyes, that could see down passages where a boy's eyes saw only blackness. They have vertical, slit-like pupils; this trait is responsible for improved night vision and typically associated with a nocturnal lifestyle in such creatures as cats (the children's eyes are described in A Dance with Dragons as resembling cats' eyes) and many species of snakes, including nearly all vipers (despite Doran Martell's reference to his brother Oberyn's "viper eyes," the Red Viper is never described as sharing this feature with the children of the forest). A few had green or red eyes; these had the gift of greensight and were known as greenseers.

Their hands had only three fingers and a thumb, with sharp black claws instead of nails. The children were slight, quick, and graceful.

I am open to the possibility of her being a hybrid, and I have seen that mentioned, but due to the striking differences in appearance, I am looking for another answer to this riddle.

Albino's with Prophetic abilities in the GOHH and BR, similar corpse like appearance with Beric, BR and the Kindly man ? Old god's whispering in her ear. Something along those lines anyway. :dunno: I believe the tales of the children being pushed north long ago. I could of course be totally wrong ! :D

[Wizz-The-Smith]

Yes, Thoros's grab is faded pink instead of red. Her trek into Hag's Mire and Neck may have nothing to do with Robb's will, and simply be a way of losing the Frey's coming after them. The crannogmen, maybe they did help LSH because of the BWB?

Yeah, purely speculative, but thought provoking nonetheless. It could perhaps show some recognition of her surroundings though, [ Frey's coming after them.] and that was really the main aim of the post. And this also, could maybe show signs of some cognitive thought ? And the Crannogmen, could be nothing, but an interesting passage, maybe they could have had contact ?

[LongRider]

Yeah, purely speculative, but thought provoking nonetheless. It could perhaps show some recognition of her surroundings though, [ Frey's coming after them.] and that was really the main aim of the post. And this also, could maybe show signs of some cognitive thought ? And the Crannogmen, could be nothing, but an interesting passage, maybe they could have had contact ?

Beric had cognitive thought even after 7 deaths. LSH certainly acts and talks like she does as well, so based on her behaviour, I would say that she does.

I like what you said about the GoHH, I to am not convinced she is a CotF. You also said

Albino's with Prophetic abilities in the GOHH and BR, similar corpse like appearance with Beric, BR and the Kindly man ? Old god's whispering in her ear. Something along those lines anyway. :dunno: I believe the tales of the children being pushed north long ago. I could of course be totally wrong ! :D

Of those you mentioned, only BR was know to said to meddle in magics and sorcery, is that not correct? Really don't know what the KM is tho, I must admit, but IIRC, he's not described as an albino. BR and GoHH are albinos, and there are a few others mentioned here and there, aren't there?

Argh, I'll have to sleep on it. Thanks for the chewy thought Wizz.

[Le Cygne]

Is this showing some memory of the land/previous experiences [ Hag's mire ] ? While I agree there could be family memories/guilt, could she have been contemplating the will while stroking the crown in her final chapter appearance ? Could they have retrieved the will somehow [ hidden somewhere.] ? What was LSH doing in the Neck ? Perhaps some off page meetings with a certain HR ? At the very least, as you've mentioned bookie, if not, we can throw it out there, and it may lead to some ideas or cool discussion. :)

Interesting! It does seem there's more of Catelyn there than we might have thought.

Of course, my eyes went right away to Jaime noticing yet another woman was attractive, GRRM keeps hammering in that he's noticing other women. Must be something to do with that story he's telling with Brienne. :lol: