The Riverlands Web V.5

[Maid So Fair]

Hi Maid So Fair. You're right of course to think that the news is going to be filtered into the RL's sooner rather than later, and may at this point have reached RR or the BF. It was just a feeling I had, that BF may not have found out yet. It could of course be as you suggested. :)

Also it wouldn't be through Arya or the Hound knowing as that was show only I think. In the books they don't reach the Vale, but split after the Hound gets injured and they're on their way to Saltpans, and Arya skips over to Braavos. The Tickler gives us a clue on some of the news in the realm when they are at the Inn. The following is from the wiki.....

There is no mention of Lysa's death here. This is Arya XIII, ASOS. Lysa's death is in Sansa VII, a few chapters later.

So probably not Arya or the Hound, but some time has passed since then, and I feel you're right to think that the news may well have reached some of the key players. :D

Hey :)

Damn, I forgot that was show only - it's hard to sometimes keep the story lines separate. Whether BF knows would depend, at least to some extent on the efficiency of the RL rumour mill, and the Mountains of the Moon occupied by belligerent clans stopping travellers coming through might slow the information flow down to a trickle and BF wouldn't have had a chance to have a detailed conversations with people while stuck in a besieged castle. But I feel it's more likely he knows since I would imagine people would at least tell Edmure (who would then tell BF). Since RR takeover happens towards the end of AFFC is feels like quite some time has passed since she died.

According to the timeline about 5 months have passed since Lysa's death and Jaime's arrival at Riverrun and by this point Cersei (in KL), Brienne (in RL) and Davos (the Sisters) have already known about her death for quite some time. So, the news has definitely reached the RL, the question is whether they also reached BF.

[Crow's eye in the sky]

The possibilty of the BF going to the Vale is talked about, but he would have a hard time getting past the clans and reaching the Bloody Gate. Worse still, winter is here which means that the high road is closed as of the midpoint of affc.

At this point, the only way in and out of the Vale is by ship. Assuming that BF chose to go to the Vale, he would need to get passage from a port.

The best two options for him are Saltpans and Maidenpool. Saltpans is likely easier to reach, but ships don't call often, and thats before the town burned down. The other option is Maidenpool, an actual port whose biggest maritime trading partner might be Gulltown (one that probably has more dirty, unwashed refugees).

Assuming that nothing unforseen happens, he could enter Gulltown in disguise, and suddenly, he would be within a short distance of Runestone, whose lord seems to have similar views to the BF, in addition to being LF's most vocal critic.

Just food for thought.

[Wizz-The-Smith]

Hey :)

Damn, I forgot that was show only - it's hard to sometimes keep the story lines separate. Whether BF knows would depend, at least to some extent on the efficiency of the RL rumour mill, and the Mountains of the Moon occupied by belligerent clans stopping travellers coming through might slow the information flow down to a trickle and BF wouldn't have had a chance to have a detailed conversations with people while stuck in a besieged castle. But I feel it's more likely he knows since I would imagine people would at least tell Edmure (who would then tell BF). Since RR takeover happens towards the end of AFFC is feels like quite some time has passed since she died.

According to the timeline about 5 months have passed since Lysa's death and Jaime's arrival at Riverrun and by this point Cersei (in KL), Brienne (in RL) and Davos (the Sisters) have already known about her death for quite some time. So, the news has definitely reached the RL, the question is whether they also reached BF.

Ha ! Easily done, I have done the same. Still, again fair point about the BF maybe knowing, and some of the posts above back this sentiment. And add your timeline, [ good work ! ] and it would suggest there is more chance than I originally thought that he may have heard something. :)

[Wizz-The-Smith]

And the Smallfolk News Network. People talk. And the BWB is out amongst them. That could work both ways, too. Getting information out, as well as in.

Of course, there's me banging on about the Smallfolk News Network in the RL's all the time ! And I back the BF to be with the BWB, yet I missed it ! Now I have realised the time elapsed, it has become clearer. As you say, with all the network has showed us, there is time enough for the BF to have heard. ^_^

[LongRider]

Not seeing either of those things. Shagga stayed in the kingswood. And it's pretty widely known, no doubt, that she abandoned Tyrion. They talked about it at the inn at the crossroads, too. And what would she give them in exchange? They didn't terrorize Lannister foes for nothing. They were paid.

Now, that's not to say there aren't other things she can do. LF is going in and out safely, likely with an armed escort of knights.

Also, she tried using that to put off LF, and failed. That's something that can be overcome easily by her foes, be it Lannister or LF, but not her, thanks to them.

Thanks for this, I think I can put the mountain clans out of my mind now. What could Sansa give the clans? Well, I wonder if goats like littlefingers? :ack:

If Sansa can find enough allies in the Vale she could leave with an armed escort as well.

[Wizz-The-Smith]

Thanks for this, I think I can put the mountain clans out of my mind now. What could Sansa give the clans? Well, I wonder if goats like littlefingers? :ack:

If Sansa can find enough allies in the Vale she could leave with an armed escort as well.

I agree with Le Cygne, I can't see the clans helping any of our favs. But as bookie mentioned, I wouldn't be surprised if we saw, or at least heard from them again. It's been specified they are causing trouble and well armed, and any trip in or out of the Vale could be an opportunity for a raid ? :dunno:

[LongRider]

Sorry, guys, super indisposed, but I should have Beric part 2 up in a few...

I read all the posts and there was great stuff. Stuff to think about. I have nothing to add really.

~~~snip~~~

Hi Bookie! Glad to hear from you. Talking about the BF & the Vale clans was good tho, I think we can rule them out as far as fighting for anyone but themselves for the time being. BF with the BWB network behind him, he has got to be heading towards freeing Edmure if possible. If so, I hope Anguy is with him, a clever archer could come in handy. And eventually, he may think about SR in Vale, especially he hears of any trouble happening. Nothing so far, but well...

[LongRider]

The possibilty of the BF going to the Vale is talked about, but he would have a hard time getting past the clans and reaching the Bloody Gate. Worse still, winter is here which means that the high road is closed as of the midpoint of affc.

At this point, the only way in and out of the Vale is by ship. Assuming that BF chose to go to the Vale, he would need to get passage from a port.

The best two options for him are Saltpans and Maidenpool. Saltpans is likely easier to reach, but ships don't call often, and thats before the town burned down. The other option is Maidenpool, an actual port whose biggest maritime trading partner might be Gulltown (one that probably has more dirty, unwashed refugees).

Assuming that nothing unforseen happens, he could enter Gulltown in disguise, and suddenly, he would be within a short distance of Runestone, whose lord seems to have similar views to the BF, in addition to being LF's most vocal critic.

Just food for thought.

Something to keep in the back of the mind if BF or anyone else needs to get to the Vale sometime. Good point.

[Wizz-The-Smith]

Sorry, guys, super indisposed, but I should have Beric part 2 up in a few...

I read all the posts and there was great stuff. Stuff to think about. I have nothing to add really.

Hey bookie, no problem, take your time. A well earned break me thinks ! Great work on this thread throughout. :bowdown:

I agree with Longie, we have loads to mull over in between PQ's, as Longie's BF question showed. :thumbsup:

[Wizz-The-Smith]

Something to keep in the back of the mind if BF or anyone else needs to get to the Vale sometime. Good point.

Agreed. Nice post 'Crow's eye in the sky', The high road being closed as of the mid point of a AFFC is something I had forgot. Thanks. :)

[Le Cygne]

And of course, we must get romantic again. Sansa could find herself in Gulltown... Dunk, while digging a grave on a slope, remembers the song of the maid in Gulltown, about a kiss, and Sandor, while digging a grave on a slope, is most likely remembering a maid... and he's remembering a song... and she's remembering a kiss...

The spring rains had softened the ground, so Dunk had no trouble digging the grave. He chose a spot on the western slope of a low hill...

Only a few days past, he had been singing as they rode, the old song about going to Gulltown to see a fair maid...

"Off to Gulltown to see the fair maid, heigh-ho, heigh-ho... I'll steal a sweet kiss with the point of my blade, heigh-ho, heigh-ho... I'll make her my love and we'll rest in the shade, heigh-ho, heigh-ho." The song swelled louder with every word...

"And she sang for me. You didn't know that, did you? Your sister sang me a sweet little song."...

On the upper slopes they saw three boys driving sheep, and higher still they passed a lichyard where a brother bigger than Brienne was struggling to dig a grave...

As the boy's lips touched her own she found herself thinking of another kiss... He took a song and a kiss, and left me nothing but a bloody cloak.

And of course, that's Tom O'7s singing the song there... just before Sandor reappears...

[LongRider]

Agreed. Nice post 'Crow's eye in the sky', The high road being closed as of the mid point of a AFFC is something I had forgot. Thanks. :)

I think the damn Eyrie is impregnable because of the mountains clans! They make traveling in the Vale a real bitch!

[Wizz-The-Smith]

And of course, we must get romantic again. Sansa could find herself in Gulltown... Dunk, while digging a grave on a slope, remembers the song of the maid in Gulltown, about a kiss, and Sandor, while digging a grave on a slope, is most likely remembering a maid... and he's remembering a song... and she's remembering a kiss...

And of course, that's Tom O'7s singing the song there... just before Sandor reappears...

Awesome ! I had not seen that mentioned before. The songs in the series have gone under my radar, but I am realising more and more that some may hold significance. There's a couple in the RL's, off the top of my head, a missing boy from Wendish town and the Maiden of the tree. The latter is very interesting.

[Booknerd2]

Beric part 2

Ok, there is a lot to think about with this guy. And I left it loose and since we dealt with his background, life, and some similarities with Robin Hood and Pimpernel, I felt part 2 could deal with some big questions we have and with some other important things dealind with Beric.

Beric knighted Gendry. Ser of the Hollow Hill does not seem like much when up against the many knights with more prestige and in some cases more illustrious families (don’t forget, Gendry has no idea that Bara-Targ-Ester blood runs through) and some even with considerable land holdings, etc. I still see something that we are hinted he is making a sword. Either he is putting his knighthood to future practice or the author is telling us that he is coming along and the BWB has plans to do something next. Hence, he seems to think he needs a sword for some reason. Could be a few things on his mind though…and I still believe connected to his Arya meltdowns over class. I worry he feels he has something to prove. That can be great, that can be a problem. And he is doing this without all the info about himself out…yet.

Again, I am still rooting for the hammer.

So, Beric is a prestigious knight and lord from an old, established family and for whatever it is worth, that knighthood is legit. And it was done at a sept.

Beric meets Arya and Gendry and he meets her and later he will give er, whatever is left of his life/lives to her mother. Arya leaves with the Hound and Beric’s leadership is passed to Cat and her agendas. Now, Thoros was sort of official/unofficial second in command; he had been with the men just as long, knew the contacts, and I am assuming was the original, as a priest, R’hllor worshipper that seemed to get everyone to follow him into the religion, or some just respect it maybe? And are not true converts?, They see powers with (to them) concrete evidence through Beric’s 6 revivals and later his er, “passing the torch” over to LS. Yet everyone shifts to LS, uh, not Thoros. He takes a big chance, I feel, in being vocal about not liking the direction it is going in to of all people, Brienne, a stranger, and someone where there is evidence of Lannister, or at least Jaime sympathies, ( well, that is what LS and the rest think) and he tells her. I mean, we know Brienne is good, she is gold, but Thoros doesn’t.

Something is coming with that… Also, discussed before, we are meant for some reason to know that dissension plagues this group, and it might be making way for a twist, or better times, possible implosion or splintering, but if it is to be held together, and LS cowed, no better than her uncle BF. I think he will be able to; the first person to see from her old life that she loved, get more out of her than the others.

Very important: the Beric vs. the Hound rumble. We see Sandor face his fear of fire. We have their bout, and it is one of many reasons I don’t believe so much in Clegane Bowl. How many times would he fight in combats for his life. Been there, done that, and his brother too with Oberyn. But more importantly, both Beric and Thoros and BWB in general, take his gold but let him go. Truly they seem to believe the lord of light has spoken, and he is to be sent on his not so merry way, because he has more to do. And this connects to a fresh start on QI. Arya was there to see this. Doesn’t agree, but later will not kill him herself when given a chance as he is at his most vulnerable point in life.

More to do…just great supporting evidence that he is not dying, blubbering under a tree, with no resolutions to any issues: brother, fire, Sansa, etc. and helping Starks which he wanted to do with Robb and Cat, but now LS is the only one alive and she is er, different. And we have a Sansa seriously thinking about him a lot, so many do-over avenues… well, the street signs are visible.

A quiet dull retirement when one can’t act and see a new day/a new way with results is why I think QI is no Cabo Wabo and the dude has to leave with the horse that is raring to go as well and make things happen.

True redemption is not just being sorry, you have to put the change in action.

Wiki as usual does a great job with bringing up the most important and concise points for characters. Quick reference and stuff you really need to know to keep in mind and to grasp the character. There is this:

“While Thoros of Myr always lit his blades with wildfire, Beric uses his own blood to make his sword magically aflame.”

I have nothing to say, only that there is still a lot to learn about what is going on with LS and the differences between her and Beric and what Thoros did in the revivals, and what Beric did with his single one with LS.

Also, what is going on with Beric and Thoros is not exactly what is gong on with Melisandre…

And it possibly differs from moqorro and others in the R’hllor fold too.

Jesus, the Red God in general needs better brand ambassadors…there are so many discrepancies between all those performing powers and even what rolls out of their mouth, it is so damn confusing.

And let us not forget for one so in the fold and with his being and everything with R’hllor, Beric still heeds and respects the words of GOHH. And we know damn well if Mel was around it would be all…no sorry, she’s not down with with big R, she’s a fraud. Well, we know there is more going on with Mel, she wants to keep her place, she has an agenda, and she doesn’t play well with others…

The biggest thing with the revivals is that of lost memories each time. With both Beric and LS, you keep any injury or whatever done to your bodily person the way it was. (So, depending on where Mr. Snow got stabbed, hopefully not the face, if as theories go, the Mel thing happens…damn, he may look like a swiss cheese. Dude, best be covering up I think….) I think the only way as a HP fan too is, it helps me to think in terms that having your soul/life revived comes with prices. You are not the same. Losing memories and pieces of you each time. Think of our old 8-bit video games with the life bars. Each time, you are still alive but the meter of full self/ full power goes down until you die. Well, depending on some, unless you get some extraordinary objects to mow over with yourself…that’s different.

Ok, so that wraps up Beric. Still debating who to cover next. I will be back with that soon. Sorry, sort of a lot going on right now, hence my absence for a bit.

A great list from the wiki:

“The Seven Deaths of Dondarrion

1 Impaled on a lance by Ser Gregor Clegane.

2 Smashed with a mace on the side of the head by Ser Burton Crakehall.

3 Hanged at Rushing Falls by Ser Amory Lorch.

4 Stabbed in the eye with a dirk by Ser Gregor Clegane.

5 Killed by an archer of the Brave Companions sellsword company.

6 Killed by Sandor Clegane in a trial by combat.

7 Gave up his lifeforce to resurrect Catelyn Tully.”

[Wizz-The-Smith]

I think the damn Eyrie is impregnable because of the mountains clans! They make traveling in the Vale a real bitch!

That's right. As Le Cygne's nice post earlier highlights. Good work getting some discussion and ideas going on this, it's made for a clearer picture for me moving forward. I have been camped in the RL's and the BWB for a while now, and some of the rest can get a bit fuzzy. :)

[Booknerd2]

Great job, guys…and keep going with anything that comes up. No matter, probable or whatever, everything needs to be looked at. Usually the springboard for putting things into better perspective and facilitating new ideas and thought.

I can't count the amount of times that stuff was thrown out and it led to even better things opening up.

[LongRider]

Great job, guys…and keep going with anything that comes up. No matter, probable or whatever, everything needs to be looked at. Usually the springboard for putting things into better perspective and facilitating new ideas and thought.

I can't count the amount of times that stuff was thrown out and it led to even better things opening up.

Thanks Bookie! Good job on Beric, pt 2.

One thing I see is that Beric was a voice of reason with the BWB. We see it with Sandor's trial and later when he comes back to get his gold. First Beric says, he won the combat, take his gold and return everything else. So the BWB did that, they even treated Sandor's wounds. When he came back for his gold, Anguy and others wanted to feather him with arrows and again, Beric said, no, let him go the Lord O'Light has more to do with him, and so it was.

Once he breathed life into what became LSH however, that voice of quiet authority and reason was stilled. LSH is an angry, vengeful spirit who wants revenge. Not that BWB had much love for Frey's and Lions, but now it's balls to wall with the quick (if any) trials and many, many hangings. Her anger and hatred is rubbing off.

I would suspect that some the BWB and many in the RL lost kin and friends in the RW. Walder's, Roose's, and Tywin's grotesque violation of guest right should make any sane Westerosi know that the violence of breaking this taboo has not just changed the game, but changed the culture as well.

But vengeance and vigilante justice is not the soil the roots of the BWB grew out of. Thoros can feel the change, and if he had any authority with the BWB it can be seen that it's eroding. First he mentions to Bri that Lem should not have left the X-roads Inn, and later, when Thoros tells Lem not to keep the Hound's helm he blows him off.

So what I'm seeing is that the group that 'hangs' with LSH may be fracturing somewhat due to the loss of their original, rational leader. Compassion had been left behind for vengeance, and the two just don't compare.

[Wizz-The-Smith]

So what I'm seeing is that the group that 'hangs' with LSH may be fracturing somewhat due to the loss of their original, rational leader. Compassion had been left behind for vengeance, and the two just don't compare.

I agree, and no one can deny that LSH's group look to be fracturing somewhat. But I still think she shows some rational thought in working with the BWB and in camp spies to hang Merrett Frey and get the crown back, and isolate Jaime into an area the BWB can capture him.

Also, what are your guys thoughts on the BWB being two factions ? It could go some way to explaining the seemingly multiple tasks they are taking on. The people that left after LSH we have discussed, with not much to go on. But in AFFC appendix, there are these missing people listed, and it seems they are separated from LSH gang and listed under Beric's name. They are.....

Edric Dayne -- The Mad Huntsman -- Greenbeard -- Anguy -- Merrit 'o' Moontown -- Watty the Miller -- Swampy Meg and also Jon 'o' Nutten.

Could they literally still be Beric's men ? And a second faction of the BWB ? I've seen this mentioned a lot in other threads, and could fit ? :dunno:

EDIT : Great work on the Beric PQ bookie ! :D

[LongRider]

I agree, and no one can deny that LSH's group look to be fracturing somewhat. But I still think she shows some rational thought in working with the BWB and in camp spies to hang Merrett Frey and get the crown back, and isolate Jaime into an area the BWB can capture him.

Also, what are your guys thoughts on the BWB being two factions ? It could go some way to explaining the seemingly multiple tasks they are taking on. The people that left after LSH we have discussed, with not much to go on. But in AFFC appendix, there are these missing people listed, and it seems they are separated from LSH gang and listed under Beric's name. They are.....

Edric Dayne -- The Mad Huntsman -- Greenbeard -- Anguy -- Merrit 'o' Moontown -- Watty the Miller -- Swampy Meg and also Jon 'o' Nutten.

Could they literally still be Beric's men ? And a second faction of the BWB ? I've seen this mentioned a lot in other threads, and could fit ? :dunno:

EDIT : Great work on the Beric PQ bookie ! :D

A split makes sense especially if they are thinking of freeing Edmure. When we first met the BWB the group with Arya didn't know where Beric was and they had to look for him. So the split may not be because of LSH.

And while she does have rational thought, her thoughts lead her to vengance. She would not listen to Bri at her trial. I can't help but think that Beric would have, and Ser Hunt may not have been beat up either. However, a little vengeance on the Freys is OK for the most part, but as Thoros tells, Bri, it's bringing more and more dogs after them. So perhaps that is part of his concerns.

[Wizz-The-Smith]

A split makes sense especially if they are thinking of freeing Edmure. When we first met the BWB the group with Arya didn't know where Beric was and they had to look for him. So the split may not be because of LSH.

And while she does have rational thought, her thoughts lead her to vengance. She would not listen to Bri at her trial. I can't help but think that Beric would have, and Ser Hunt may not have been beat up either. However, a little vengeance on the Freys is OK for the most part, but as Thoros tells, Bri, it's bringing more and more dogs after them. So perhaps that is part of his concerns.

1st Bold.] Good point. And we know Greenbeard was seen to be a leader of some sorts within the BWB, and Anguy is important. Who knows ? :dunno: But I like this idea.

2nd Bold.] Yeah, I agree, it seems to have gotten a lot darker with LSH's gang, and a lot of her drive is vengeance, that is undeniable. But those scraps of evidence showing cohesion working with the BWB/spies, the foray into the Neck and her thoughtful gaze over Robb's crown, have got me thinking there is more to LSH than we think ? Maybe not. :dunno: