Are the Boltons the rightful Lords of Winterfell?

[m'lady Melisandre]

hey, have you people forgotten the GREAT NORTHERN CONSPIRACY?

The Bolton's rule over Winterfell and the entire north is void and null, the oath of loyalty they received were almost all just remarkable pieces of acting.

[Mithras]

The Boltons were given Winterfell

The Boltons were given fArya Stark, not Winterfell. Roose pays importance to claim Winterfell through Arya. He mentioned finishing the old feud between Boltons/Starks and uniting as a single House. Under these silky words, he definitely shows the mailed fist but that does not change the fact that their claim on Winterfell depends on Arya, which is exactly what Roose told Ramsay during their dialogue. There are many Northern Lords in the Stark tree and no sinlge Bolton is there. All the Northern Lords have better claim to Winterfell than the Boltons.

[Nyrhex]

Not sure if you're agree or disagreeing with me. The Boltons were given Winterfell and all it's titles for their help. "Arya" cements the deal. But Tywin's long-term plan was to ultimately give Winterfell to Tyrion and Sansa's son.

It's all fluid and never as solid as we all like to argue. The one thing we know for certain is the Boltons hold Winterfell.

I disagreed. I thought that "Arya" is only sent after Joffrey is dead, Sansa is fled, and Tyrion is considered a traitor and would likely die. That Tywin had given up on the idea that Tyrion would father a Lannister with a claim on Winterfell, and so has no problem to send "Arya" to aid his warden of the North lay claim to Winterfell through her. I just did a fast re-read and Tyrion talks to Tywin right after the Red Wedding,where he hears about the plan to send Arya to wed Ramsay.

Still, Tywin intended for the Boltons to appease the Northmen with Arya, and to claim Winterfell with Tyrion and Sansa's child, but now they lay claim to Winterfell through "Arya". Tywin did not give Winterfell to the Boltons. He gave them the title of lord paramount. The title of lord paramount is an office which Tywin intended to take from the Boltons, not Winterfell. Sort of like Robert gave the warden of the east title to Jaime, instead of the traditional appointment of the lord of the Vale. He can't do it with the Eyrie, but he can with the lord paramountship.

[Barrick Eddon]

Well, yeah. That's kind of how titles work lol.

Well let me make it simple for you , they have the titles but not the power .

[David Selig]

Who cares? it always amuses me people from modern democracies get into long debates who is the rightful heir/king/lord based on the feudal arbitrary and unfair laws.

[m'lady Melisandre]

Who cares? it always amuses me people from modern democracies get into long debates who is the rightful heir/king/lord based on the feudal arbitrary and unfair laws.

What? some of us don't live in democracies at all.

[Gibzit]

Who cares? it always amuses me people from modern democracies get into long debates who is the rightful heir/king/lord based on the feudal arbitrary and unfair laws.

We are all actually from Saudi Arabia, that is why it is so important.

[Salafi Stannis]

Who cares? it always amuses me people from modern democracies get into long debates who is the rightful heir/king/lord based on the feudal arbitrary and unfair laws.

Feudal shmeudal who cares? No-one likes a party pooper.

[The Dragons Hand]

Well, I don't view the Baratheon dynasty as legitimate and I won't until enough time has passed that the dragon has been forgotten.

So no, Bolton Morghulis

[RainGhost]

No. Roose Bolton is the rightful Warden of the North for anybody who accepts Tommen as their king. To people who don't accept Tommen as their king, he is just the Lord of the Dreadfort and a turncloak. Ramsay is not Lord of Winterfell because he is basing his claim to Winterfell on Jeyne Poole, who has no claim to Winterfell whatsoever. Tommen did not actually name him Lord of Winterfell. It's also worth pointing out that to people who don't accept Tommen as king, Ramsay is still a bastard and bastards can't inherit anyway.

I also think that blood and history matter here. The Starks conquered the entire north bit by bit and ruled from Winterfell for 8000 years. That's a whole lot of legitimacy (which is a mark against Stannis and in favour of Dany, sorry). If the northmen have to choose between Bolton and Stark, they'll choose Stark every time, so there's your answer. Power resides where men believe it resides. Lord of Winterfell and Warden of the North are just empty titles unless people actually accept you as such. Bran is the rightful Lord of Winterfell (just ask Lord Manderly and Lyanna Mormont).

[UtherSnow]

Roose really believes The Boltons are the rightful Lords of Winterfell, so much so that he goes as far as arranging a marriage to Ramsey with someone known to be false. It's a ball of wool with so many loose ends, it will end in countless pieces of string.

Jaime makes sure Brienne doesn't rescue this girl because she isn't Arya. Also he says Roose knows this girl is a fraud.

Cersei even says that Littlefinger was virtually created this sheep in wolf's clothing, now known as Arya.

Tywin's hand was never too far away from all this.

Why didn't Roose go to Winterfell first? Was the original call for the bannermen to gather at Barrowton? That seems an odd choice when this is supposed to be Arya Stark, apparent heir to Wintferfell. The change only comes when Stannis takes Deepwood Motte.

[Quentyn Kartell]

I say No. The only reason Ramsay can claim Lord of Winterfell is through marriage, which as we know was a sham. He's an illegitimate lord.

[RoamingRonin]

Citation, or it didn't happen.

Forgive me. They were not given Winterfell.

[The silver dragon]

no they aren't. just like how the baratheon were not the rightful king's on the iron throne.

[~~~~~~~~~~~~~]

So, I believe that Stannis is the rightful king because he is Roberts rightful heir and Robert won the throne from the Targaryens, who also derived their claim from right of conquest. So, I was arguing with a fellow poster, and they pointed out that, with this reasoning, I must also accept that the Boltons are the rightful Lords of Winterfell, having won it from the Starks by right of conquest, and I tried to find a fault with that reasoning, and lo and behold, I couldn't. Are the Boltons the rightful Lords of Winterfell? Or is "right to rule" a meaningless social construct? In which case the Starks still aren't the rightful Lords of Winterfell, if there is no right to rule. I want Stannis to be rightful king, and I also want the Starks to be the rightful Lords of Winterfell, but I can't think both, they are mutually exclusive. I still stick to my reasoning about how Stannis is the rightful king, so this would also mean that the Boltons are the rightful Lords of Winterfell, and that sucks.

EDIT - However, it was pointed out to me that the Boltons were given Winterfell by the Lannisters, who are traitors and are not the rightful rulers, and have no right to give the Boltons Winterfell, so the Boltons are in fact NOT the rightful Lords of Winterfell, and that the Starks are, so crisis of conscience AVERTED!

Your logic is flawed. The Boltons & Lannisters have conspired to take Winterfell through treachery and trickery. Fake Arya is already known to be just that. Mance saw her at the feast for the King when he came to Winterfell to ask Ned to be his Hand. Isn't Able, the singer, Mance Rayder? I've been under the impression he is. At any rate, I do remember an old story that Nan told of the Night's King. She said that many people thought he was a Bolton, but don't you believe it, he was a Stark of Winterfell.

There must always be a Stark in Winterfell. Why? There is a reason it is always said and I want to know what that reason is.

Stannis should inherit the throne as he is the legitimate heir by line of succession. Cersei's children are bastards. They have no right to the throne, nor does she. Stannis can win the throne and set the 7 kingdoms to rights. He has not blinded himself to the truth, like the Others are real and they're coming. The Targaryens have no right to bitch about this as they took the kingdoms by force with dragons, so them losing it because of the actions of its Prince and King Aerys is no one's fault but their own.

Should Dany come back and win the Iron Throne again with dragons, well, maybe she will make generous terms with Stannis. I hope so anyway. GRRM doesn't take advice from me, and I'm sure his visions of how things will work out are much better than anything we come up with on this forum.

[Lord Lannister]

Well let me make it simple for you , they have the titles but not the power .

Right now the North is under actual dispute between Stannis and the Boltons, even without throwing in the Northern Conspiracy theories. So until Stannis actually wins that battle, the North is theirs for the time being. Stannis doesn't actually hold anything beyond the wall really whereas the Boltons do.

[~~~~~~~~~~~~~]

Right now the North is under actual dispute between Stannis and the Boltons, even without throwing in the Northern Conspiracy theories. So until Stannis actually wins that battle, the North is theirs for the time being. Stannis doesn't actually hold anything beyond the wall really whereas the Boltons do.

How about Deepwood Motte?

[The silver dragon]

You logic is flawed. The Boltons & Lannisters have conspired to take Winterfell through treachery and trickery. Fake Arya is already known to be just that. Mance saw her at the feast for the King when he came to Winterfell to ask Ned to be his Hand. Isn't Able, the singer, Mance Rayder? I've been under the impression he is. At any rate, I do remember an old story that Nan told of the Night's King. She said that many people thought he was a Bolton, but don't you believe it, he was a Stark of Winterfell.

There must always be a Stark in Winterfell. Why? There is a reason it is always said and I want to know what that reason is.

Stannis should inherit the throne as he is the legitimate heir by line of succession. Cersei's children are bastards. They have no right to the throne, nor does she. Stannis can win the throne and set the 7 kingdoms to rights. He has not blinded himself to the truth, like the Others are real and they're coming. The Targaryens have no right to bitch about this as they took the kingdoms by force with dragons, so them losing it because of the actions of its Prince and King Aerys is no one's fault but their own.

Should Dany come back and win the Iron Throne again with dragons, well, maybe she will make generous terms with Stannis. I hope so anyway. GRRM doesn't take advice from me, and I'm sure his visions of how things will work out are much better than anything we come up with on this forum.

what do you call the sack of kings landing?

nope. what Robert did was unlawful and went against everything the line of succession stands for.

Renly: The Targaryens called Robert usurper. He seemed to be able to bear the shame. So shall I.

by that logic stannis has no right to bitch as he was smashed at the blackwater.

as did every king of every kingdom.

you think stannis would offer her the same mercy?

what you said is massively hypocritical,i can practically tastes the anti-targ bias.

[Lord Lannister]

How about Deepwood Motte?

That's right, I forgot Stannis took that from Asha, I stand corrected there. Though the point still stands that holding the Wall, and a small castle, does not constitute controlling the North as things stand presently. I'm still holding out and hoping Bolton's army all but crumbles within, beyond his own Dreadfort forces and the Freys.

[~~~~~~~~~~~~~]

what do you call the sack of kings landing?

nope. what Robert did was unlawful and went against everything the line of succession stands for.

Renly: The Targaryens called Robert usurper. He seemed to be able to bear the shame. So shall I.

by that logic stannis has no right to bitch as he was smashed at the blackwater.

as did every king of every kingdom.

you think stannis would offer her the same mercy?

what you said is massively hypocritical,i can practically tastes the anti-targ bias.

What you are tasting is a different viewpoint than your own. I'm not anti-Targ. I'm not blinded by Rhaegar's beauty or his and Lyanna's so called love story. The Targs took the 7 kingdoms by right of conquest. To suggest no one else is allowed to do that is actually the height of hypocrisy. Find a mirror and take a long look.