Blacks vs. Greens #2 [TWoIaF spoilers]

[Lord Varys]

Continuing this thread: http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/121809-do-you-support-the-greens-or-blacks-why/

I'm responding to Wmarshal's last post.

-The title lord protector gave such power.



-The text clearly shows he meant to win, and to win is to live.Aemon was the greatest threat to the realm, his beast was the mightest dragon about and he living kept the green cause alive. Attempting to minimize the importance of this just to make the death of Aemond more useless is a hollow attempt.



- If he gave so little a crap he wouldn't have fought Aemond at all and abandon the cause. Daemon returning to KL left the worry he can return and burn them as they slept.



-So we are meant to ignore everything about Daemon because it seems bias? The maester based his account by word of two kingsmen(granted, one seemed to making things up off the back in the jester). The maester has no reason what so ever to be bias against Daemon, the crown as well the highowers themselves were of descent of him.



So let me get this traight, to you, Daemon killed himself just because? It is quiet confusing, if I am wrong please explain.

1. The Lord Protector of the Realm (or a particular region, e.g. the Lord Protector of the Vale) only wields a certain amount of power. We know this from Littlefinger/Lysa. She named him Lord Protector, but remained in charge of the Vale as Regent for her son. And during the Regency a Corbray was Lord Protector who was not at the same time member of the Regency council. Finally, we also know that Baelor Breakspear was Lord Protector of the Realm while Daeron II was still alive and ruled the Realm as king.

I agree that Daemon as Lord Protector could have used his position to try to usurp the Iron Throne, but he did not make any attempt in that direction.

2. If you really think that Aemond/Vhagar were important you don't pay attention to what is going on. Aemond had neither army nor allies. All he had was a big dragon which he used to kill off some people. Killing some of Rhaenyra's dragonriders in the process would not have won him or Aegon II the Iron Throne. That is not keeping 'the Green cause alive', it is banditry, as simple as that (Ormund Hightower and his army kept the Green cause alive). If Aemond had had a brain he would flown to the Hightower army or to Storm's End on Vhagar, to ensure a Green victory in the field. He could even gone West to help the Lannisters against Dagon Greyjoy. Instead he effectively did nothing. George effectively uses Aemond and Vhagar to illustrate that having a big dragon does not make you politically powerful if you are as stupid as Aemond was.

3. As to Daemon's motives: A possible take is is that Daemon no longer wanted to live, and wanted to have the best exit possible (i.e. no suicide). Why not go down killing the biggest dragon alive in a feature that would make immortal in history? This interpretation is backed by the textual evidence of Daemon not taking Nettles with him, and by the fact that Daemon actually confirms that he has lived too long when he talks to Aemond.

He may also have planned to survive and join the Green Men, or may have survived and subsequently joined the Green Men because they saved him. That remains to be seen.

[Wmarshal]

Continuing this thread: http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/121809-do-you-support-the-greens-or-blacks-why/

I'm responding to Wmarshal's last post.

1. The Lord Protector of the Realm (or a particular region, e.g. the Lord Protector of the Vale) only wields a certain amount of power. We know this from Littlefinger/Lysa. She named him Lord Protector, but remained in charge of the Vale as Regent for her son. And during the Regency a Corbray was Lord Protector who was not at the same time member of the Regency council. Finally, we also know that Baelor Breakspear was Lord Protector of the Realm while Daeron II was still alive and ruled the Realm as king.

I agree that Daemon as Lord Protector could have used his position to try to usurp the Iron Throne, but he did not make any attempt in that direction.

2. If you really think that Aemond/Vhagar were important you don't pay attention to what is going on. Aemond had neither army nor allies. All he had was a big dragon which he used to kill off some people. Killing some of Rhaenyra's dragonriders in the process would not have won him or Aegon II the Iron Throne. That is not keeping 'the Green cause alive', it is banditry, as simple as that (Ormund Hightower and his army kept the Green cause alive). If Aemond had had a brain he would flown to the Hightower army or to Storm's End on Vhagar, to ensure a Green victory in the field. He could even gone West to help the Lannisters against Dagon Greyjoy. Instead he effectively did nothing. George effectively uses Aemond and Vhagar to illustrate that having a big dragon does not make you politically powerful if you are as stupid as Aemond was.

3. As to Daemon's motives: A possible take is is that Daemon no longer wanted to live, and wanted to have the best exit possible (i.e. no suicide). Why not go down killing the biggest dragon alive in a feature that would make immortal in history? This interpretation is backed by the textual evidence of Daemon not taking Nettles with him, and by the fact that Daemon actually confirms that he has lived too long when he talks to Aemond.

He may also have planned to survive and join the Green Men, or may have survived and subsequently joined the Green Men because they saved him. That remains to be seen.

1. He had to win a war first. You act as if he didn't have something to do.

2. A dragon big enough to burn whole castles, a claim strong enough to wage endless war. There dragonriders were their heirs and children. Aemond no matter what was threat politically, alluding foe who at any moment could end him and his.

3. Nothing of his character shows death was the only option for him, he had no reason, being old isn't a good reason to die. This was a fight for his fate, a fight to decide it all.

[Skinner]

Nothing of his character shows death was the only option for him, he had no reason, being old isn't a good reason to die. This was a fight for his fate, a fight to decide it all.

I agree. Forging the Kingdom of the Stepstones, Blood & Cheese, and marrying Rhaenyra were all power plays for Daemon in his ultimate quest for the throne (or at least it's power). However, in the Dance over Harrenhal, it seemed that all was lost when Vhagar ripped open Caraxes' belly. Maybe this sign of almost utter defeat is what drove Daemon to jump of Caraxes and drive Dark Sister into Aemond's eye.

[aryagonnakill#2]

Lord Varys, Daemon tells Aemond he has lived to long, referring to Aemond, not himself, tho I agree he would not have intended to survive the encounter either.

[Lord Varys]

Wmarshal,

1. I'm not sure why I should believe that Daemon had to wait until the war was won before he could get rid of Rhaenyra if he was after the throne. Why not simply kill her, and claim/conquer the Realm in his own name, or in the name of his own son or one of Rhaenyra's sons by Laenor?

2. No one doubts that Aemond had a big dragon and a claim to the Iron Throne. But if the Blacks had continued to take out/neutralize the Green dragonriders, Rhaenyra/Daemon would inevitably have hunted down Aemond. He was only one man, after all, and with the Blacks winning the war and Aemond becoming a hated figure in the Riverlands, no one would have come to his aid.

3. Daemon had no reason whatsoever to face Aemond of all people in a battle that could easily result in his own death.

aryagonnakill#2,

Aemond says Daemon has lived too long, and Daemon agrees. You should reread TPatQ.

[Wmarshal]

Wmarshal,

1. I'm not sure why I should believe that Daemon had to wait until the war was won before he could get rid of Rhaenyra if he was after the throne. Why not simply kill her, and claim/conquer the Realm in his own name, or in the name of his own son or one of Rhaenyra's sons by Laenor?

2. No one doubts that Aemond had a big dragon and a claim to the Iron Throne. But if the Blacks had continued to take out/neutralize the Green dragonriders, Rhaenyra/Daemon would inevitably have hunted down Aemond. He was only one man, after all, and with the Blacks winning the war and Aemond becoming a hated figure in the Riverlands, no one would have come to his aid.

3. Daemon had no reason whatsoever to face Aemond of all people in a battle that could easily result in his own death.

aryagonnakill#2,

Aemond says Daemon has lived too long, and Daemon agrees. You should reread TPatQ.

1. Because she was the one their allies fought for, his was the weakest of claims.

2. Save the hightowers and any that followed Aegon II. Keeping contained in the riverlands or killing him prevented a him burning KL with his huge dragon event. Killing Aemond opened the path of unchallenged kingship.

3. Save end him, the greatest threat to his power.

[C.T. Phipps]

1. I'm not sure why I should believe that Daemon had to wait until the war was won before he could get rid of Rhaenyra if he was after the throne. Why not simply kill her, and claim/conquer the Realm in his own name, or in the name of his own son or one of Rhaenyra's sons by Laenor?

I thought it was pretty clear due to the horrific nature of the revenge and his suicide-by-dragon that Daemon genuinely loved Rhaenyra at the end.

While I believe Nettles didn't have any dragon blood, if she did, I would assume Daemon was her FATHER than lover.

[The Dragon Demands]

Rhaenyra was the lawful monarch, and the Greens were all traitors.

The Greens touted the "precedent" set by Jaehaerys I's choice of heir, but that was the monarch *immediately preceding* Viserys I...and the Targaryens were still a new dynasty, and simply hadn't established "formal laws" about royal inheritance.

Throughout his life Viserys I directly extracted oaths from great lords of the realm that they would support Rhaenyra as his heir. No one complained for thirty years.

What's the most hypocritical/preposterous is that when Beesbury pointed out that major lords had all sworn to uphold Rhaenyra, the sarcastic reply he got was "I wasn't alive when those oaths were made, my father made those oaths".....and....the Greens then emphasized Jaehaerys I's decision, which was even OLDER, acknowledged by a council in the time of their GRANDFATHERS.

The entire Green logic was "I refuse to acknowledge the legality of an oath my father made, but I will emphasize a council agreement my grandfather made which directly contradicts it"?!

They just didn't want Rhaenyra to be queen, it had nothing to do with legality.

[Til]

I support the Blacks. Rhaenyra was Viserys' heir. A king can name whomever he wants as his heir. Maegor named Aerea as his heir. Jaehaerys named Baelon his heir after Aemon's death, then Viserys after Baelon's death. Viserys names Rhaenyra. Aegon IV routinely threatened to disinherit Daeron II and name one of his bastards as heir instead. Later on, Aegon V would disinherit Prince Duncan and name Jaehaerys II as his new heir.

Rhaenyra was the heir of King Viserys, and Aegon II and the Greens were usurpers.

[C.T. Phipps]

I think the thing to remember is it wasn't like Westeros wouldn't have accepted Rhaenyra. It was just that Alicent decided to press her claim.

[Nilan8888]

It's not even just that: from my read of it both Aegon II and Alicent were hesitant to move on Viserys's death: it was Criston Cole who urged them to take that first step. After which, there was no going back.

[Ser Skwisgaar]

I thought it was pretty clear due to the horrific nature of the revenge and his suicide-by-dragon that Daemon genuinely loved Rhaenyra at the end.

While I believe Nettles didn't have any dragon blood, if she did, I would assume Daemon was her FATHER than lover.

Also, and I might be reading a BIT too much into it, I feel like Daemon may have just been tired of it all. He may have been a rogue, a whoremonger, etc, but something makes me think that Daemon had become disgusted by the political backstabbing, petty betrayal, and destruction caused by the dance. Maybe he even had some remorse for Blood & Cheese. Plus, the one thing he had wanted his whole life (a crown) had been shown to be worthless, or even poinsonous. The only thing left for him to do was go out like a warrior, doing what he did best.

[teemo]

Thanks for continuing my thread! I guess the first one was closed for being too long.

[Red Tiger]

To the OP, you do realize Protector of the Realm and Lord protector don't have ANYTHING to do with eachother, right?

Protector of the Realm is purely a military title.

[Wmarshal]

To the OP, you do realize Protector of the Realm and Lord protector don't have ANYTHING to do with eachother, right?

Protector of the Realm is purely a military title.

Is that not the same title Eddard bore that made him effective ruler of the realm?

[Red Tiger]

Is that not the same title Eddard bore that made him effective ruler of the realm?

Not exactly, the titles he got were lord regent (the ruler, think Kevan for Tommen, Aemond for Aegon II while hurt) and Protector of the Realm (the supreme military commander of the Iron Throne's forces).

It's the lord regent part that made him ruler, most people read over that, which is understandable because a king usually has ALL the titles (unless the ruler is incapacitated or too young, or simply not capable)

This is why Baelor was made Protector of the Realm for his dad, Daeron II was not a warrior nor commander, but Baelor was

So Daeron was the ruler, while Baelor marshalled the throne's forces

Noticed how Daemon Targaryen was named Protector of the Realm but nothing else?

[Winterfell is Burning]

Also, and I might be reading a BIT too much into it, I feel like Daemon may have just been tired of it all. He may have been a rogue, a whoremonger, etc, but something makes me think that Daemon had become disgusted by the political backstabbing, petty betrayal, and destruction caused by the dance. Maybe he even had some remorse for Blood & Cheese. Plus, the one thing he had wanted his whole life (a crown) had been shown to be worthless, or even poinsonous. The only thing left for him to do was go out like a warrior, doing what he did best.

That's probably it.

[Tywin's Sideburns]

While I believe only the might and power and the ability to win a war if it comes to it, gives him/her the 'rightful claim' to anything he/she wants, Jaehaerys did call upon the great council to create some sort of unviersal succession laws. In Westerosi rulership tradition, a woman can only inherit if there are no males left (including cousins, uncles etc.) So being wise as he was, Jaehaerys understood that the realm would be more stable and there would be a better relationship between the ruling Targaryens and the nobles if the they adopted their new realm's ways and traditions, in addition to not causing future problems when there is potentially a complex succession crisis. And so my point is that Viserys in a sense 'betrayed' the realm and his grandfather when he named Rhaenyra his heir. A king can do as he wishes though but as I said earlier might is everything. So there is no 'rightful' ruler or usurper in my view. The side which proves to be more powerful will be the 'rightful' ruler (in this case it turned out to be the blacks in the end).

On the topic of Daemon, I believe his main goal was to claim the throne. Plotting during Viserys's rule and causing problems but he proved unsuccessful in gaining his main prize, it is quite obvious what he wanted. With the Dance of the Dragons he did accomplish his goal in a sense by putting his seed 'Aegon III' on the throne.

[Winterfell is Burning]

While I believe only the might and power and the ability to win a war if it comes to it, gives him/her the 'rightful claim' to anything he/she wants, Jaehaerys did call upon the great council to create some sort of unviersal succession laws. In Westerosi rulership tradition, a woman can only inherit if there are no males left (including cousins, uncles etc.) So being wise as he was, Jaehaerys understood that the realm would be more stable and there would be a better relationship between the ruling Targaryens and the nobles if the they adopted their new realm's ways and traditions, in addition to not causing future problems when there is potentially a complex succession crisis. And so my point is that Viserys in a sense 'betrayed' the realm and his grandfather when he named Rhaenyra his heir.

Yep.

Basically, every war in Westeros under the Targaryens- Maegor's problems with the Faith (which to be fair, didn't start with his actions, but escalated a lot due to his actions), the Dance of the Dragons, Daeron's Conquest of Dorne, The Blackfyre Rebellions (and indirectly the War of the Ninepenny Kings) and Robert's Rebellion all happened because of the same reason- The King thinks he can do what he wants, only to find out that he CANNOT.

[The silver dragon]

Yep.

Basically, every war in Westeros under the Targaryens- Maegor's problems with the Faith (which to be fair, didn't start with his actions, but escalated a lot due to his actions), the Dance of the Dragons, Daeron's Conquest of Dorne, The Blackfyre Rebellions (and indirectly the War of the Ninepenny Kings) and Robert's Rebellion all happened because of the same reason- The King thinks he can do what he wants, only to find out that he CANNOT.

and if you give in to other people demands timidly?

you are seen as a weakling. like aerys 1. (Cue dumb and proud people* rebelling against you) one by one people are gonna try to take advantage of you like they did with tytos, no matter how kind you are to them.

no those war's happened because of bad decision making.

1.)(maegor not being a little bit merciful)

2.) aegon deciding that he want's to try and take a kingdom, from the only person in the world with enough dragon's to defy him.

3.) Daeron letting the martell's keep dorne. and not reading enough history to tell him that they have no honer.

4.) cause aegon 4 the asshole was an asshole.

5.) cause aerys was unwilling to compromise with Rickard.

* dumb and proud people make up 78% of the nobility of westeros.