Would Rhaegar have been a good king? [POLL]

[The silver dragon]

I will say it for the last time NO ONE KNOWS IF RHAEGAR EVEN KNEW THE REPERCUSSIONS!!! We dont even know how all that went down so the fact that Rhaegar is blamed for events he was not apart of is very common one used against people who don't like a certain president because of such and such. Has if Rhaegar is are lord and savior Jesus Christ so he must of known EVERY SINGLE EVENT IN ROBERT'S REBELLION!!! Wow didn't :bs: know Rhaegar became the supreme being overnight.

a prince who does not know the most powerful people in his realm is a shit king.

why did Rickard go to king's landing? to save his son. why did he have to save his son? cause his hotheaded son in outrage went to king's landing to kill Rhaegar.

i am not sure about you but it seem's like he was a major part of the event's.

[James Arryn]

a prince who does not know the most powerful people in his realm is a shit king.

why did Rickard go to king's landing? to save his son. why did he have to save his son? cause his hotheaded son in outrage went to king's landing to kill Rhaegar.

i am not sure about you but it seem's like he was a major part of the event's.

Just for starters, Rhaegar didn't even live in King's Landing.

[hear me bore]

Even giving him the benefit of the doubt that he made a baby with Lyanna to save the world, why the hell didn't Rhaegar get rid of his father first? If he was eventually going to do it, why not do it before you piss off everyone else? That is clear evidence of poor judgment and sense, both political and common.

[Mal Malenkirk]

The kidnapping/escape/whatever is something that could be a political move...

Could be. But then it's a poorly conceived move that went disastrously wrong.

So can I pencil you on the 'Bad king' part of the poll?

[hear me bore]

After he crowned Lyanna, a whole year happened after they met again. Everybody move on. People say that's where they met and "fell in love". Can be proved? Because HotU showed us Rhaegar and Elia after they got another child and they seemed to be in good terms. He also spent a whole year with his wife after she gave birth. No evidence people got mad after this.

There is clear evidence that both Robert and Brandon were pissed at the crowning and completely logical to assume his wife was very embarrassed. So was Rhaegar's plan just to wait until they got less pissed and make further advances? In the scale of douchebag things to do, embarrassing your wife in front of everyone that matters is pretty high up.

[Red Tiger]

Could be. But then it's a poorly conceived move that went disastrously wrong.

So can I pencil you on the 'Bad king' part of the poll?

:lol:

[Pigeon Pie]

How is kidnapping and hiding for a year any time of smart political move. This make them look more stupid then smart.

Like messing up the chance to remove Aerys? Or not removing family when Aerys took them? Or pissing of Lyonel's rebirth?

1. Political marriage + hostage situation. I do believe Rhaegar loved Lyanna, but she was also a perfect political match against Aerys (Think Starks + Dorne + Vale + Riverlands, who are tied to Starks by marriage by Rhaegar's side, while Tywin hates Aerys already and this leaves only Highgarden and Stormlands that might just be neutral), and a hostage against her family in case they'd think to move against him, in the same way that Elia can be a hostage against Dorne. Only Rhaegar didn't have the time to announce his intentions because his dad murdered the girl's father and brother and her second brother and fiance rose in rebellion together. Quickly, it turned from I-married-your-daughter-so-now-you-have-to-support-me into Oh-shit-they're-angry-we-have-to-hide.

Rhaegar never had a chance to remove Aerys. Aerys was paranoid especially against Rhaegar, and whenever R tried to do something Aerys would soon discover it (I imagine because of Varys) and ruin his chances. And how could he remove his family when Aerys took them? All he could do was place them away from him before escaping, and he did it. As for pissing off Lyonel's rebirth, like I said, if it was him + North + Westerlands + Vale + Riverlands + Dorne, Robert wouldn't go to rebellion. He was not that stupid when warfare was concerned, he'd know his chances.

[Pigeon Pie]

Could be. But then it's a poorly conceived move that went disastrously wrong.

So can I pencil you on the 'Bad king' part of the poll?

Because of his father.

I imagine you cannot.

[sj4iy]

Yes, definitely.

Anyone who pinpoints the Lyanna thing as showing his bad judgement should be careful. We still don't know what events that decision ultimately has triggered and will trigger, as in things that could end up saving all of Westeros.

I agree.

I think he would have been a good king because that's what the story tells us, and it's difficult to infer beyond that.

[The silver dragon]

Just for starters, Rhaegar didn't even live in King's Landing.

i know that. i never said Brandon was a well of knowledge or intelligence. :rolleyes:

does not change the fact that he sparked the tinder of war. sure aerys might have fanned the flames.

but a smart practical person would not have sparked it at all.

[hear me bore]

1. Political marriage + hostage situation. I do believe Rhaegar loved Lyanna, but she was also a perfect political match against Aerys (Think Starks + Dorne + Vale + Riverlands, who are tied to Starks by marriage by Rhaegar's side, while Tywin hates Aerys already and this leaves only Highgarden and Stormlands that might just be neutral), and a hostage against her family in case they'd think to move against him, in the same way that Elia can be a hostage against Dorne. Only Rhaegar didn't have the time to announce his intentions because his dad murdered the girl's father and brother and her second brother and fiance rose in rebellion together. Quickly, it turned from I-married-your-daughter-so-now-you-have-to-support-me into Oh-shit-they're-angry-we-have-to-hide.

Rhaegar never had a chance to remove Aerys. Aerys was paranoid especially against Rhaegar, and whenever R tried to do something Aerys would soon discover it (I imagine because of Varys) and ruin his chances. And how could he remove his family when Aerys took them? All he could do was place them away from him before escaping, and he did it. As for pissing off Lyonel's rebirth, like I said, if it was him + North + Westerlands + Vale + Riverlands + Dorne, Robert wouldn't go to rebellion. He was not that stupid when warfare was concerned, he'd know his chances.

Why would either Dorne or The North (and by extension Riverlands and Vale) side with Rhaegar? He would have pissed all of them off. And he could keep Lyanna hostage I guess but that wouldn't get all the regions to fight for him.

[Pigeon Pie]

I agree.

I think he would have been a good king because that's what the story tells us, and it's difficult to infer beyond that.

1. Tywin thought so, and Tywin was neither biased nor an idiot.

2. Barristan thought so.

3. Everyone thought so.

4. People still argue.

5. I do believe if GRRM wrote a meta-story where Rhaegar became king, defeated the WW, restored peace, stopped famine, sexism, elitism and racism in Westeros, people would still hate him.

[James Arryn]

i know that. i never said Brandon was a well of knowledge or intelligence. :rolleyes:

does not change the fact that he sparked the tinder of war. sure aerys might have fanned the flames.

but a smart practical person would not have sparked it at all.

So anything that happens after Rhaegar does X is Rhaegar's reonsibility, even if/when those things were contingent on another person's significant error. Rhaegar should have known the error would occur. Right.

There was no war until the reaction to the reaction to the reaction to the reaction to the reaction to the rection to Rhaegar's action. Think about that for a second. I mean, why does everyone speak so highly of Jon Arryn when he basically pushes little boys out of windows?

[Wmarshal]

1. Political marriage + hostage situation. I do believe Rhaegar loved Lyanna, but she was also a perfect political match against Aerys (Think Starks + Dorne + Vale + Riverlands, who are tied to Starks by marriage by Rhaegar's side, while Tywin hates Aerys already and this leaves only Highgarden and Stormlands that might just be neutral), and a hostage against her family in case they'd think to move against him, in the same way that Elia can be a hostage against Dorne. Only Rhaegar didn't have the time to announce his intentions because his dad murdered the girl's father and brother and her second brother and fiance rose in rebellion together. Quickly, it turned from I-married-your-daughter-so-now-you-have-to-support-me into Oh-shit-they're-angry-we-have-to-hide.

Rhaegar never had a chance to remove Aerys. Aerys was paranoid especially against Rhaegar, and whenever R tried to do something Aerys would soon discover it (I imagine because of Varys) and ruin his chances. And how could he remove his family when Aerys took them? All he could do was place them away from him before escaping, and he did it. As for pissing off Lyonel's rebirth, like I said, if it was him + North + Westerlands + Vale + Riverlands + Dorne, Robert wouldn't go to rebellion. He was not that stupid when warfare was concerned, he'd know his chances.

You mean him, maybe the Starks and river lands and Vale, because Brandon the Stark connection hates him, he offed the Stark honor, pissed off Arryn's ward and the dornish who only gave support when Elia was held hostage. If she is held hostage they are really not going to help, Aerys is his only shield in that case. Why? Because he was gone for months.

Yeah he did HH, he wasted it. With huge army he had. 5 of the 7 kingsguard were his men. He had his kingly father, again slighting this me isn't giving him their aid. Lyonel rebelled with far worse.

[Pigeon Pie]

Why would either Dorne or The North (and by extension Riverlands and Vale) side with Rhaegar? He would have pissed all of them off. And he could keep Lyanna hostage I guess but that wouldn't get all the regions to fight for him.

Okay, it's a bit complicated. I'm here talking about Rhaegar's plan BEFORE Aerys burned Rickard and Brandon and demanded the heads of Robert and Ned, so bear with me.

1. Rickard is not an idiot. He knows that daughter marrying next king > daughter marrying lord paramount. Even if she is the second wife.

2. Rhaegar meets Lyanna. She says I'll marry you because a. she'd rather him than Robert and b. she supports his political cause and actually wants to do something independent, for once in her life.

3. Rhaegar takes Lyanna by swordpoint (and I have explained this to someone on tumblr before; carrying her off by swordpoint doesn't necessarily mean he took her against her own will, but most probably against the will of her posted guards) to marry him in the Isle of Faces. They plan to announce it, and Rhaegar knows how Rickard will feel about his daughter becoming queen. That's when his father kills R and B and demands the heads of N and R. Now things have gone off plan.

4. Why would Westerlands, Riverlands, Vale and Dorne side with Rhaegar, you say?

Westerlands: Tywin has already expressed his preference for Rhaegar as king, and he has huge problems with Aerys to begin with.

Riverlands: Tied to Starks by marriage.

Vale: The big friendship between Jon Arryn and Rickard, plus tied to Riverlands by Marriage.

Dorne: Even if they thought they were insulted and didn't understand why Rhaegar had to bring back polygamy, he has Elia and the children as hostages.

[The silver dragon]

So anything that happens after Rhaegar does X is Rhaegar's reonsibility, even if/when those things were contingent on another person's significant error. Rhaegar should have known the error would occur. Right? you took the word's out my mouth.

There was no war until the reaction to the reaction to the reaction to the reaction to the reaction to the rection to Rhaegar's action. Think about that for a second. I mean, why does everyone speak so highly of Jon Arryn when he basically pushes little boys out of windows?

if i leave a child in my car and he open's the door's.

and then a criminal see's the open car and takes it, and then kill's said child, am i responsible?

no i believe those action's are highly irresponsible. hence why you shouldn't leave little in car's. that's exactly what Rhaegar did. he left a incompetent king to try and put out the flames of war.

[James Arryn]

if i leave a child in my car and he open's the door's.

and then a criminal see's the open car and takes it, and then kill's said child, am i responsible?

no i believe those action's are highly irresponsible. hence why you shouldn't leave little in car's. that's exactly what Rhaegar did. he left a incompetent king to try and put out the flames of war.

The king was the king, and 'the flames of war' still presupposes war when it was several stages removed...several stupid or insne...from what Rhaegar did or did not do.

A better analogy; you leave your kid on your car becuase you're just running into the store for milk. A criminal sees your car, steals it and tries to sail it across the Atlantic. The port authority who sees the car driving into the ocean assumes that the car driving into the ocean is running from a terrorist threat and calls it in. The President decides it's time to get tough on terrorism and threatens Russia. Putin nukes Portugal in response.

Why did you decide to nuke Portugal again? For milk?!?!

[Pigeon Pie]

if i leave a child in my car and he open's the door's.

and then a criminal see's the open car and takes it, and then kill's said child, am i responsible?

no i believe those action's are highly irresponsible. hence why you shouldn't leave little in car's. that's exactly what Rhaegar did. he left a incompetent king to try and put out the flames of war.

Every time someone is like "Rhaegar let Aerys do this and that..."

There was nothing Rhaegar could do about Aerys. Aerys was already crazy, had many informants (one of which is Varys), a crown on his head and, sadly, many loyalists. All Rhaegar had was Dorne, some squires and some knights of the Kingsguard. He was going to have much more by marrying Lyanna, if Aerys hadn't totally blown that too.

[hear me bore]

Okay, it's a bit complicated. I'm here talking about Rhaegar's plan BEFORE Aerys burned Rickard and Brandon and demanded the heads of Robert and Ned, so bear with me.

1. Rickard is not an idiot. He knows that daughter marrying next king > daughter marrying lord paramount. Even if she is the second wife.

2. Rhaegar meets Lyanna. She says I'll marry you because a. she'd rather him than Robert and b. she supports his political cause and actually wants to do something independent, for once in her life.

3. Rhaegar takes Lyanna by swordpoint (and I have explained this to someone on tumblr before; carrying her off by swordpoint doesn't necessarily mean he took her against her own will, but most probably against the will of her posted guards) to marry him in the Isle of Faces. They plan to announce it, and Rhaegar knows how Rickard will feel about his daughter becoming queen. That's when his father kills R and B and demands the heads of N and R. Now things have gone off plan.

4. Why would Westerlands, Riverlands, Vale and Dorne side with Rhaegar, you say?

Westerlands: Tywin has already expressed his preference for Rhaegar as king, and he has huge problems with Aerys to begin with.

Riverlands: Tied to Starks by marriage.

Vale: The big friendship between Jon Arryn and Rickard, plus tied to Riverlands by Marriage.

Dorne: Even if they thought they were insulted and didn't understand why Rhaegar had to bring back polygamy, he has Elia and the children as hostages.

I understand that you meant before Aerys went berserk. But my point was that at that point, the North and Dorne would be pissed at him, not support him. I disagree that being a second wife is better than being the lady in the Stormlands. And Rhaegar didn't have Elia, his father did. Riverlands and Vale would probably follow North. The only one who might support him is Tywin, and I doubt that because they would be greatly outnumbered.

[Mal Malenkirk]

Because of his father.

I imagine you cannot.

Anticipating what the other players in the game will do with the hand they've been dealt is the basis of competent political thinking.

-''My plan would have worked if it was not for all those other people not acting in ways that benefits my plan!'' is never a good excuse for failure.

Whatever other quality he might have possessed, Rhaegar was a poor political thinker. And not a great general either. The results speak for themselves.