Would Rhaegar have been a good king? [POLL]

[Pigeon Pie]

I understand that you meant before Aerys went berserk. But my point was that at that point, the North and Dorne would be pissed at him, not support him. I disagree that being a second wife is better than being the lady in the Stormlands. And Rhaegar didn't have Elia, his father did. Riverlands and Vale would probably follow North. The only one who might support him is Tywin, and I doubt that because they would be greatly outnumbered.

But then comes the hostage situation. Let's say North and Dorne don't like it that Rhaegar took both their daughters as wives, they're now facing two choices:

1. Anger the next king, in which case he might just harm/kill your daughter in return

2. Accept that you have to support him for your daughter's well-being and status, and the whole family's status, in fact (having your daughter as queen is a huge honor even if she's not the only one; look at how far the Tyrells went to make Margaery queen even though many claimed that Joffrey had no right to his throne)

[hear me bore]

So anything that happens after Rhaegar does X is Rhaegar's reonsibility, even if/when those things were contingent on another person's significant error. Rhaegar should have known the error would occur. Right.

There was no war until the reaction to the reaction to the reaction to the reaction to the reaction to the rection to Rhaegar's action. Think about that for a second. I mean, why does everyone speak so highly of Jon Arryn when he basically pushes little boys out of windows?

Rhaegar's actions were objectively unwise, regardless of consequence and any superseding cause; surely you agree with that? Now imagine that Brandon doesn't go to KL. Instead, his father, Robert, Arryn, and Tully all decide to wage war on the Targs for what the Prince did. Would you still think he wasn't at fault? I think he would be because his actions were objectively unwise.

I'm not sure if Jon Arryn has any such actions that led to what you cited but if so I'd like to know.

[Pigeon Pie]

Anticipating what the other players in the game will do with the hand they've been dealt is the basis of competent political thinking.

-''My plan would have worked if it was not for all those other people not acting in ways that benefits my plan!'' is never a good excuse for failure.

Whatever other quality he might have possessed, Rhaegar was a poor political thinker. And not a great general either. The results speak for themselves.

So, he had to anticipate that Brandon was going to go to KL, and shout, right under Pyromaniac Aerys' ears that his son should come out and die? Which is, like, the stupidest thing a person could ever do?

[James Arryn]

Rhaegar's actions were objectively unwise, regardless of consequence and any superseding cause; surely you agree with that? Now imagine that Brandon doesn't go to KL. Instead, his father, Robert, Arryn, and Tully all decide to wage war on the Targs for what the Prince did. Would you still think he wasn't at fault? I think he would be because his actions were objectively unwise.

I'm not sure if Jon Arryn has any such actions that led to what you cited but if so I'd like to know.

Aegon IV took several noble mistresses without a single war. The books are filled to the brim with noble affairs. Acting like war was a natural consequence is pure hindsight.

Whether or not his actions in isolation were unwise is contingent upon a ton of details we just don't know yet. I am reserving judgment until we do.

Edit: Jon Arryn arranged for the Cersei/Robert marriage, without which twincest isn't worth killing, and then died, without which Robert et al don't go to WF where Twincest doesn't happen and Brandon doesn't catch it, and therefore jaime doesn't push him out a window.

[hear me bore]

But then comes the hostage situation. Let's say North and Dorne don't like it that Rhaegar took both their daughters as wives, they're now facing two choices:

1. Anger the next king, in which case he might just harm/kill your daughter in return

2. Accept that you have to support him for your daughter's well-being and status, and the whole family's status, in fact (having your daughter as queen is a huge honor even if she's not the only one; look at how far the Tyrells went to make Margaery queen even though many claimed that Joffrey had no right to his throne)

But you originally said support against Aerys, which wouldn't make sense for Dorne because he has Elia. Also, usually hostages are used to make people stay out of wars not actively engage in them on your side because there is a chance of betrayal; the notable exception being Dorne in RR.

Also, Marg would have been the sole queen, regardless of the rumors about Joffrey. They basically ignored those because they had the best military. Lyanna's kids wouldn't become king or queen unless Elia's kids were dead. I don't think Lyanna meant to murder Rhaegar and Elia's kids for the throne.

[Wmarshal]

But then comes the hostage situation. Let's say North and Dorne don't like it that Rhaegar took both their daughters as wives, they're now facing two choices:

1. Anger the next king, in which case he might just harm/kill your daughter in return

2. Accept that you have to support him for your daughter's well-being and status, and the whole family's status, in fact (having your daughter as queen is a huge honor even if she's not the only one; look at how far the Tyrells went to make Margaery queen even though many claimed that Joffrey had no right to his throne)

1) Who is a rebel and promised nothing unless they save him, did holding Aerys keep Barry from saving him and them

Dying horribly? Or did the holding of three of his family stop Robb?

2) they went so far because Joffrey was literally their only choice to meet said goal. If Renly lived Joffrey's head would be removed from his body. There is also the matter Joffrey never took a crap on Mace's honor.

[James Arryn]

So, he had to anticipate that Brandon was going to go to KL, and shout, right under Pyromaniac Aerys' ears that his son should come out and die? Which is, like, the stupidest thing a person could ever do?

And that Aerys would then accuse him of treason and Rickard would come south to defend him and Aerys would have them both killed and then send for Jon Arryn to kill Ned and Robert at which time Jon Arryn would raise his banners.

How did he not know ~ would happen?

[hear me bore]

Aegon IV took several noble mistresses without a single war. The books are filled to the brim with noble affairs. Acting like war was a natural consequence is pure hindsight.

Whether or not his actions in isolation were unwise is contingent upon a ton of details we just don't know yet. I am reserving judgment until we do.

Edit: Jon Arryn arranged for the Cersei/Robert marriage, without which twincest isn't worth killing, and then died, without which Robert et al don't go to WF where Twincest doesn't happen and Brandon doesn't catch it, and therefore jaime doesn't push him out a window.

Agreed, highborn females have served as mistresses. But several important distinctions: none of them were engaged to a man in Robert's position, Aegon was king--not prince, at least from the outside, most of those women were willing and open participants. If nothing else, the running away part and lack of communication was clearly wrong without any hindsight.

And as for the Arryn thing, like I said, no one would think that marriage was objectively unreasonable.

[Pigeon Pie]

1) Who is a rebel and promised nothing unless they save him, did holding Aerys keep Barry from saving him and them

Dying horribly? Or did the holding of three of his family stop Robb?

2) they went so far because Joffrey was literally their only choice to meet said goal. If Renly lived Joffrey's head would be removed from his body. There is also the matter Joffrey never took a crap on Mace's honor.

Rebel or not, he was still the heir. By rebelling he was only promising one thing: That he'd become the king earlier to save what's left from his father's hand. Plus, Rickard isn't Robb. He was old and wise, not young and hotblooded.

[Pigeon Pie]

And that Aerys would then accuse him of treason and Rickard would come south to defend him and Aerys would have them both killed and then send for Jon Arryn to kill Ned and Robert at which time Jon Arryn would raise his banners.

How did he not know ~ would happen?

IKR? Too bad he wasn't a wizard or a greenseer or anything. :lol:

[James Arryn]

Agreed, highborn females have served as mistresses. But several important distinctions: none of them were engaged to a man in Robert's position, Aegon was king--not prince, at least from the outside, most of those women were willing and open participants. If nothing else, the running away part and lack of communication was clearly wrong without any hindsight.

And as for the Arryn thing, like I said, no one would think that marriage was objectively unreasonable.

I don't think those important distinctions are all that important. There are several RL parallels (or worse) without recourse to war. If the difference between being engaged to 'a man in Robert's position' and w/e their situation was is so great as to mean the difference between raised eyebrows and war, you'd think a lot more time would be spent on the particulars of every Royal mistress. People have affairs all the time, but Trojan Wars almost never happen.

Running away and lack of communication are 2 of the factors about which we know practically nothing, so impossible to judge.

[Wmarshal]

Rebel or not, he was still the heir. By rebelling he was only promising one thing: That he'd become the king earlier to save what's left from his father's hand. Plus, Rickard isn't Robb. He was old and wise, not young and hotblooded.

By rebelling he became no better then a rebel and tainted. Robb was moved by what was needed to be done, his lords would abandon him if he took Joffrey's slits so readily and kneeled to the boy that held his kin. He moved to free by gaining leverage.

[Mal Malenkirk]

So, he had to anticipate that Brandon was going to go to KL, and shout, right under Pyromaniac Aerys' ears that his son should come out and die? Which is, like, the stupidest thing a person could ever do?

He had to consider he was creating a political crisis and that first on the line to deal with it was Aerys who was mad. He knew this much. That's what he had to plan for. Apparently he had zero contingency for that, his whole plans was subject to the whim of his father. Which is poor planning.

[Pigeon Pie]

But you originally said support against Aerys, which wouldn't make sense for Dorne because he has Elia. Also, usually hostages are used to make people stay out of wars not actively engage in them on your side because there is a chance of betrayal; the notable exception being Dorne in RR.

Also, Marg would have been the sole queen, regardless of the rumors about Joffrey. They basically ignored those because they had the best military. Lyanna's kids wouldn't become king or queen unless Elia's kids were dead. I don't think Lyanna meant to murder Rhaegar and Elia's kids for the throne.

But Aerys didn't start out as having Elia, she was on Dragonstone. And it is arguable whether Lyanna being queen but her children not being kings is better or her being lady of the Stormlands with her children next lords of it. It's a matter of opinion, but I tend to think the first one is preferable.

[Ser Lepus]

I will say it for the last time NO ONE KNOWS IF RHAEGAR EVEN KNEW THE REPERCUSSIONS!!! We dont even know how all that went down so the fact that Rhaegar is blamed for events he was not apart of is very common one used against people who don't like a certain president because of such and such. Has if Rhaegar is are lord and savior Jesus Christ so he must of known EVERY SINGLE EVENT IN ROBERT'S REBELLION!!! Wow didn't :bs: know Rhaegar became the supreme being overnight.

Isolating himself from the Realm in such a way that he wouldn't even be aware of the war raging on would be quite an unwise move on itself.

[Pigeon Pie]

He had to consider he was creating a political crisis and that first on the line to deal with it was Aerys who was mad. He knew this much. That's what he had to plan for. Apparently he had zero contingency for that, he was at the whim of his father. Which is poor planning.

He hadn't planned for Aerys to deal with it, he had planned to speak with Rickard himself, but stupid Brandon rushed to KL like the little idiot he was.

[Wmarshal]

He hadn't planned for Aerys to deal with it, he had planned to speak with Rickard himself, but stupid Brandon rushed to KL like the little idiot he was.

When was this? Somehow hiding months on end doesn't seem to translate to peaking with anyone.

[James Arryn]

Isolating himself from the Realm in such a way that he wouldn't even be aware of the war raging on would be quite an unwise move on itself.

Change it from a martial/political matter to a criminal/manhunt matter, and the wisdom would be exactly the opposite.

[Winterfell is Burning]

I will say it for the last time NO ONE KNOWS IF RHAEGAR EVEN KNEW THE REPERCUSSIONS!!! We dont even know how all that went down so the fact that Rhaegar is blamed for events he was not apart of is very common one used against people who don't like a certain president because of such and such. Has if Rhaegar is are lord and savior Jesus Christ so he must of known EVERY SINGLE EVENT IN ROBERT'S REBELLION!!! Wow didn't :bs: know Rhaegar became the supreme being overnight.

Rhaegar doesn't need to know everything that would happen, he just needs to know what he's doing is a completely stupid idea, which anyone with common sense would.

Anticipating what the other players in the game will do with the hand they've been dealt is the basis of competent political thinking.

-''My plan would have worked if it was not for all those other people not acting in ways that benefits my plan!'' is never a good excuse for failure.

Whatever other quality he might have possessed, Rhaegar was a poor political thinker. And not a great general either. The results speak for themselves.

This.

Agreed, highborn females have served as mistresses. But several important distinctions: none of them were engaged to a man in Robert's position, Aegon was king--not prince, at least from the outside, most of those women were willing and open participants. If nothing else, the running away part and lack of communication was clearly wrong without any hindsight.

None of those women were daughters or betrothed to LPs either. And Aegon's wife was not sister to yet another LP.

. Plus, Rickard isn't Robb. He was old and wise, not young and hotblooded.

But Brandon is young and hotblooded, so are Oberyn and Robert.

And Rhaegar couldn't predict that the young heir would do something that most people would call unwise and might act without telling his father? I'm sorry, if you can't see the irony here, your IQ is in Forrest Gump levels.

He hadn't planned for Aerys to deal with it, he had planned to speak with Rickard himself, but stupid Brandon rushed to KL like the little idiot he was.

Where it's stated that Rhaegar intended to speak with Rickard himself? Funny how the Rhaegar-stans are always claiming that "we don't know all the facts" to defend him, yet are more than happy to create theories like this out of thin air.

And Rhaegar only appeared around a year after disappearing, and only after the White Bull found him. Did Rhaegar expected the entire realm to stand still for a year? Two? Until he got a child out of Lyanna, which might never happen?

As for Rhaegar not predicting Brandon's actions, read what I wrote above.

Change it from a martial/political matter to a criminal/manhunt matter, and the wisdom would be exactly the opposite.

Except of course IT IS a martial and political matter as well.

[Mal Malenkirk]

He hadn't planned for Aerys to deal with it, he had planned to speak with Rickard himself, but stupid Brandon rushed to KL like the little idiot he was.

If that's the case (speculation on your part) than stupid Rhaegar should have considered approaching Rickard before 'kidnapping' his daughter, wouldn't you say?

An alliance between (Rhaegar) Targaryen and Stark can be achieved without 'kidnapping' Lyanna and hypothetically entering the first polygamous marriage in three centuries. If he felt a marriage was absolutely necessary, he happened to have a baby girl and Rickard had two more sons not yet spoken for. Negotiating this calmly instead of disappearing with Rickard's eldest daughter sends a better signal that you are a good potential ally, IMO. And as an added bonus it does not humilate the Martells!