Nyrhex Posted January 3, 2015 Share Posted January 3, 2015 We have no idea what exactly happened during the Tourney of Harrenhal. We don't know for real if in fact it was organized by Rhaegar, nor what were his intentions. Rhaegar didn't cause RR. Aerys did. No one lifted a finger after they heard Lyanna was taken by him. She could have been in fact raped and they didn't care. Even Rickard went to answer for his son, not his daughter. It was until Aerys called for Robert's and Ned's heads that Jon Arryn (not Robert, not Ned) refused and rebelled, and if people joined them, it was because of the marriage alliances made with Hoster (many Riverlords and Stormlanders remained loyal to the Dragons). In the Trident, the fact that Robert defeated Rhaegar means nothing when we consider who was the better King. tl,dr? Lords: "Rhaegar's raping Rickard Stark's girl? Sucks for her and her stupid brother for trying to save her, what a gallant fo--what? Aerys threatened two Lords? You don't do that to male nobility! call the banners!!". Tourney of Harrenhal - The crowning Lyanna bit, not the plot to depose Aerys bit. Robert's Rebelllion - No one except her brother who was the closest. Rickard arrives with the other fathers, because he demands justice for both Lyanna and Brandon. You are mixing time to hear the news with caring, conveniently forgetting that Brandon being a prisoner slows things down. The Trident is important because it shows how Rhaegar thinks. Robert could have died and that would not matter. His army is the smallest. Ned is fighting for his family, Jon Arryn for his, and Hoster for his alliance with the both of them. Rhaegar's only fights were mock fights in the practice yard. He shows several levels of wrong decisions, the least of them is losing the battle in a crushing defeat. TL:DR Rhaegar: So, my dad is kind of crazy, let's run off with a this girl and piss off two houses, alongside my wife's house for the possible threat to her and our mutual children, leaving my clearly insane dad to take care of everything while I take a year long vacation away from everything. What's the worst that can happen? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JonCon's Red Beard Posted January 3, 2015 Share Posted January 3, 2015 I suspect that in the end, we'll learn that the decisions of a large number of actors (including Rhaegar) resulted in the catastrophe.In no particular order I'd include Aegon V, his enemies among the nobility, Tywin Lannister, Lord Darklyn, Aerys II, Lord Chelsted and his party, Rickard Stark, Rhaegar and Lyanna, Hoster Tully, and Jon Arryn, and doubtless plenty more. In a RLJ thread was kinda suggested that maybe Rhaegar could have trusted Tywin and they were together to take down the King. Some evidence does suggest/hint it: him knighting Gregor, Tywin being the one who paid for HH, Rhaegar telling Aerys to call him back and make him Hand, and Tywin also waiting for Rhaegar's death to finally switch. Either Tywin actually thought he would back him up or was simply waiting for a time to switch and he fooled him all the way, we might find out. (I'll try to look for hints in TWOIAF for this, it got me thinking if it might be in fact what happened) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ser Lepus Posted January 3, 2015 Share Posted January 3, 2015 I can accept that Rhaegar knew about the return of dragons, the menace of the Others and all the rest thanks to his prophetic powers, knowledge from arcane books or whatever, but he undeniably handled matters horribly. He should have expected the Realm to explode because of what he did and his dad to make everything worse. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nyrhex Posted January 3, 2015 Share Posted January 3, 2015 In a RLJ thread was kinda suggested that maybe Rhaegar could have trusted Tywin and they were together to take down the King. Some evidence does suggest/hint it: him knighting Gregor, Tywin being the one who paid for HH, Rhaegar telling Aerys to call him back and make him Hand, and Tywin also waiting for Rhaegar's death to finally switch. Either Tywin actually thought he would back him up or was simply waiting for a time to switch and he fooled him all the way, we might find out. (I'll try to look for hints in TWOIAF for this, it got me thinking if it might be in fact what happened) Tywin wanted Cersei queen, and Rhaegar is showing more signs that he intends to replace his queen with Lyanna. Even if Tywin is thinking polygamy, a third wife? Realy? Tywin waited to see which side is the weakest exactly because he did not care about Rhaegar and the Targs. Knighting Gregor is just more evidence that Rhaegar's judgement is fucked up. And looking for hints for something that you wish is true is telling. You wish to find evidence, anything at all, to somehow justify Rhaegar's actions, since what logic tells us is nothing but a long line of wrong desicions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guess who's back Posted January 3, 2015 Share Posted January 3, 2015 Not even close. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JonCon's Red Beard Posted January 3, 2015 Share Posted January 3, 2015 Tourney of Harrenhal - The crowning Lyanna bit, not the plot to depose Aerys bit.After he crowned Lyanna, a whole year happened after they met again. Everybody move on. People say that's where they met and "fell in love". Can be proved? Because HotU showed us Rhaegar and Elia after they got another child and they seemed to be in good terms. He also spent a whole year with his wife after she gave birth. No evidence people got mad after this. Robert's Rebelllion - No one except her brother who was the closest. Rickard arrives with the other fathers, because he demands justice for both Lyanna and Brandon. You are mixing time to hear the news with caring, conveniently forgetting that Brandon being a prisoner slows things down. Jaime mentions Rickard was called to answer for his son. There is zero evidence he went to ask for Lyanna. That's something he could have mentioned, if he was in fact worried about two of his children. Either way, he was worried as a father. The rest of Westeros was not. No one gave a damn about Rhaegar taking Lyanna and having sex with her. That didn't start the rebellion. The Rebellion started months after that, once Rickard arrived to KL and died. The Trident is important because it shows how Rhaegar thinks. Robert could have died and that would not matter. His army is the smallest. Ned is fighting for his family, Jon Arryn for his, and Hoster for his alliance with the both of them. Rhaegar's only fights were mock fights in the practice yard. He shows several levels of wrong decisions, the least of them is losing the battle in a crushing defeat.Rhaegar died because Robert was, in that moment, a better fighter. That's it. TL:DR Rhaegar: So, my dad is kind of crazy, let's run off with a this girl and piss off two houses, alongside my wife's house for the possible threat to her and our mutual children, leaving my clearly insane dad to take care of everything while I take a year long vacation away from everything. What's the worst that can happen? Which two houses were pissed? Did Robert travel to KL/DS to answer for Lyanna? No. Only Brandon, and Brandon alone did, and Hoster, who knew more about politics and how the world actually works, considered him a fool. Sad and unfair as it sounds, no one cares for a girl's safety or virginity if a Prince want such girl. No one cared about Lyanna being abducted. It's all about the "honour" of a house and it wasn't Brandon's due to question Rhaegar, but his father. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SeanF Posted January 3, 2015 Share Posted January 3, 2015 In a RLJ thread was kinda suggested that maybe Rhaegar could have trusted Tywin and they were together to take down the King. Some evidence does suggest/hint it: him knighting Gregor, Tywin being the one who paid for HH, Rhaegar telling Aerys to call him back and make him Hand, and Tywin also waiting for Rhaegar's death to finally switch. Either Tywin actually thought he would back him up or was simply waiting for a time to switch and he fooled him all the way, we might find out. (I'll try to look for hints in TWOIAF for this, it got me thinking if it might be in fact what happened)Ser Kevan's chapter in ADWD strongly suggests that Tywin was expecting to be recalled as Hand. My guess is that even as he mobilised his army, he hadn't decided which way to jump. Had Rhaegar won at the Trident, I think Tywin would have invaded the Riverlands, and offered his assistance to Rhaegar to take the IT, in return for being reinstated as Hand. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JonCon's Red Beard Posted January 3, 2015 Share Posted January 3, 2015 Tywin wanted Cersei queen, and Rhaegar is showing more signs that he intends to replace his queen with Lyanna. Even if Tywin is thinking polygamy, a third wife? Realy? Tywin waited to see which side is the weakest exactly because he did not care about Rhaegar and the Targs. Knighting Gregor is just more evidence that Rhaegar's judgement is fucked up. And looking for hints for something that you wish is true is telling. You wish to find evidence, anything at all, to somehow justify Rhaegar's actions, since what logic tells us is nothing but a long line of wrong desicions. Who says is something I wish? Me looking for evidence doesn't mean I will find it. Kinda absurd to already dismiss a research I haven't even started and try to shun it just because my arguments and my theory might end up with something you don't like. Also, how this is going to "justify" Rhaegar's actions? What makes you believe that I feel trusting Tywin is a good idea? In the same way, why are you so sure that Rhaegar's actions were wrong, as it's needed to justify them? Do you have a version of the future books we haven't been informed about? So far, you and many others claim Rhaegar's judgement is fucked up. How? Because his actions aren't fully explained in text? Duh, Rhaegar's actions are one of the biggest mysteries of the books, they WON'T be explained until the very end. People assuming he was an idiot for the lack of textual evidence that proves he had a better motivation than simply running with Lyanna is like trying to prove a negative: "as we don't have the full version, then he was an idiot". We have enough evidence to know his decisions had a bigger meaning, but he was wrong and made mistakes. Which is not the same as being a fool. And being fooled by others doesn't necessarily makes a person a fool either. Can you disprove Rhaegar and Rickard were in communication? You can't as I can't prove they were in talks. We can, otoh, try to look if such evidence exists, because if they were in fact, confabulated, then the author could have planted some hints. That's what authors do: hint, tease and put clues. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Winterfell is Burning Posted January 3, 2015 Share Posted January 3, 2015 He thought it was a good idea to disappear with the daughter of a Lord Paramount who's bethroted to another (who was raised by another LP), has a brother that's bethroted to the daughter of yet another, and leave his mad father to deal with the fallout. So, no, of course not. He was a complete idiot and completely unfit for the job. I'm having flashbacks to the 90s... when my people(?) said something like "we can't vote for a writer/intellectual who married his cousin for president... we need a strong man in power! we better vote for the charismatic leader with the happy family!" 25 years later, the writer got a Nobel Prize and the charismatic strong leader is in jail for crimes against humanity... I don't remember Mario Vargas Llosa's actions causing a war... :rolleyes: De Rhaegar tenemos dudas, de Robert tenemos pruebas... Surely Robert being a lame King is undeniable proof Rhaegar would be an awesome one... It's funny how people insist on giving him credit despite clear evidence to the contrary because he looked good. B-b-but he's SO DREAMY! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rawhead Posted January 3, 2015 Share Posted January 3, 2015 His habit of making awful, politically disastrous decisions without thinking about them and his questionable military merit lead me to believe his reign would be arbitrary and marred by rebellion. Not to mention the whole "I have declared myself the Chosen One" delusion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gibzit Posted January 3, 2015 Share Posted January 3, 2015 No But compared to the last 4 kings, he is a saint, which is why some people think he would actually be good. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Viserys - The last dragon Posted January 3, 2015 Share Posted January 3, 2015 Yeah. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PatrickStormborn Posted January 3, 2015 Share Posted January 3, 2015 He would have been a good king, definitely. But I think he would have ended up like Egg - not really able to do anything with his power. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shockwave Posted January 3, 2015 Share Posted January 3, 2015 better then Aerys, robert and joffrey anyway Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Viserys - The last dragon Posted January 3, 2015 Share Posted January 3, 2015 Who says is something I wish? Me looking for evidence doesn't mean I will find it. Kinda absurd to already dismiss a research I haven't even started and try to shun it just because my arguments and my theory might end up with something you don't like.Also, how this is going to "justify" Rhaegar's actions? What makes you believe that I feel trusting Tywin is a good idea? In the same way, why are you so sure that Rhaegar's actions were wrong, as it's needed to justify them? Do you have a version of the future books we haven't been informed about?So far, you and many others claim Rhaegar's judgement is fucked up. How? Because his actions aren't fully explained in text? Duh, Rhaegar's actions are one of the biggest mysteries of the books, they WON'T be explained until the very end. People assuming he was an idiot for the lack of textual evidence that proves he had a better motivation than simply running with Lyanna is like trying to prove a negative: "as we don't have the full version, then he was an idiot". We have enough evidence to know his decisions had a bigger meaning, but he was wrong and made mistakes. Which is not the same as being a fool. And being fooled by others doesn't necessarily makes a person a fool either. Can you disprove Rhaegar and Rickard were in communication? You can't as I can't prove they were in talks. We can, otoh, try to look if such evidence exists, because if they were in fact, confabulated, then the author could have planted some hints. That's what authors do: hint, tease and put clues.Sweet JonCon- I would imagine you're used to this by now? I've stated many times, and I will again, that it would be a pleasure to meet so many on this board, since people are SO quick to call people "idiots", "irrational" etc etc.. Most of the board members have to be geniuses which would simply RULE at the "Game". In reality, away from the computer, I doubt it. But like you state JonCon; we do NOT have all the information and therefor its hard to judge. ->most of the information we have about Rhaegar- not related to the Lyanna incident- makes him sound great. But again I'll wait until we have all the information to fully judge. But simply based on what is available, without holes, he would be a good king. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fat Mac Posted January 3, 2015 Share Posted January 3, 2015 It's funny how everyone has already made up their minds about Rhaegar. I think the info we will get in later books will redeem him. ...or destroy his reputation As to OP, I don't think Rhaegar would be so great. He probably wouldn't be terrible, but he seems like one of those guys that is great on paper but ultimately fails when the true responsibility is thrust upon him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RainGhost Posted January 3, 2015 Share Posted January 3, 2015 We don't have enough information to say one way or the other but with the information we do have, I will vote yes. However, he could then have turned into a bad king if the madness consumed him. Being obsessed with prophecies suggests that the madness was already there. He was supposedly good at everything he did, kind I think, not bloodthirsty, honourable for the most part etc, all good qualities. He made a monumental mistake with Lyanna, yes, but that didn't start the war. Without Aerys's madness, the situation could have been resolved, albeit with difficulty and with many concessions on the part of the Targs. Also, I don't judge people for one mistake, though it is true that he should have tried to make up for his mistake earlier. His reason for taking Lyanna also matters. If he fell in love with her, then that doesn't make him stupid, it makes him human. If he took her to fulfill a prophecy then that makes him mad, not a good quality in a king. I think too many posters look for a 'perfect king' - there is no such thing! Madness and lady-stealing aside, I see nothing to suggest that Rhaegar would not have been as good a king as any other. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Dragons Hand Posted January 3, 2015 Share Posted January 3, 2015 I shall go with yes.I know he was young, but stealing people fiance's isn't something he did every six minutes, it was kind of an exception. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Lannister Posted January 3, 2015 Share Posted January 3, 2015 Given the sorry lot of leaders we've had, Rhaegar can't have been any worse. So I'll go yes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Dragons Hand Posted January 3, 2015 Share Posted January 3, 2015 better then Aerys, robert and joffrey anyway But not Tommen? :rofl: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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