Who did lyanna stark really love?

[Ygrain]

To be fair, Rhaegar never LOVED Elia. There is a chance they were honest about their relationship and were in good terms. If Rhaegar loved Lyanna, if he promised her to stay true to it, he did.

That's what I meant - that he stayed true to the one love of his life.

[Lord Buckethead]

When it comes to Rhaegar leaving for the tower of joy while still being married to Elia I think we should keep in mind that there were other rules of conduct that applied to the Targaryens than to the general populace.

Incest for example is a great cultural taboo in Westeros, but not so for Targaryens.

And even polygamy, which is shunned by the faith of the seven, has precedence (although unusual) among the Targaryens (Aenar, Aegon I and his son Maegor)

You might call it infidelity. As I am sure Elia would too... But in the eyes of House Targaryen I think it might be considered "eccentric, but acceptable".

I am assuming, of course, that he did in fact marry Lyanna and not just bed her, which might also be the case.

[Ygrain]

I am assuming, of course, that he did in fact marry Lyanna and not just bed her, which might also be the case.

It might, but I think this goes against the characterisation of Rhaegar who, on top of being honourable, possessed the means to conduct his affair in a way that wouldn't dishonour the woman he loved. In fact, I believe that Robb putting Jeyne's honour above his own when he married her might be a parallel to what Rhaegar and Lyanna did.

[Bryanfury]

Yeah but in what world does eloping and marrying a betrothed woman put her honour above ones own? Clearly not Westeros. Both their 'honour' is shot to shit with their lust-driven escapade, no matter how in love they may have been at death.

[Ygrain]

Yeah but in what world does eloping and marrying a betrothed woman put her honour above ones own? Clearly not Westeros. Both their 'honour' is shot to shit with their lust-driven escapade, no matter how in love they may have been at death.

If he bedded her without marriage and sired a bastard on her, it would be a great dishonour to her, but that wouldn't be the case if he married her. If he was the instigator, then he did indeed behaved dishonourably by the Westerosi rules but not towards Lyanna, just like Robb behaved dishonourably by breaking his words to Lord Frey but not towards Jeyne. Hence the parallel - preventing dishonour to the women they loved at the cost of dishonouring themselves.

[JonCon's Red Beard]

just like Robb behaved dishonourably by breaking his words to Lord Frey but not towards Jeyne.

He actually did. Bedding a maiden is dishonourable. But, by Westerosi laws, marrying her "cleans" the dishonour. So, even if Rhaegar had sex with Lyanna and later married her, because Jon or because "oh shit what have I done!", Lyanna is not dishonoured.

(and it's sad that kind of mentality even exists nowadays)

[Ygrain]

He actually did. Bedding a maiden is dishonourable. But, by Westerosi laws, marrying her "cleans" the dishonour. So, even if Rhaegar had sex with Lyanna and later married her, because Jon or because "oh shit what have I done!", Lyanna is not dishonoured.

(and it's sad that kind of mentality even exists nowadays)

The fact that he did it ex post doesn't make the parallel invalid - he amended the dishonour by dishonouring himself.

- Just to clarify: I'm talking Westerosi perspective, not my own.

[PrinceHenryris]

Herself.

[LordStoneheart]

Herself.

I hope so. Self-esteem is good, and I'd hate for her to have gotten the "Arya Horseface" treatment.

[Bryanfury]

If he bedded her without marriage and sired a bastard on her, it would be a great dishonour to her, but that wouldn't be the case if he married her. If he was the instigator, then he did indeed behaved dishonourably by the Westerosi rules but not towards Lyanna, just like Robb behaved dishonourably by breaking his words to Lord Frey but not towards Jeyne. Hence the parallel - preventing dishonour to the women they loved at the cost of dishonouring themselves.

The difference, of course, being that Jeyne wasn't betrothed to another, so her being bedded without marriage isn't the same as Lyanna and Rhaegar. Stepping in and disrupting a betrothal, in Westerosi perspective, is not going to be resolved by a polygamous marriage and denying the original betrothal altogether. Quite the opposite. Socially, Rhaegar has still dishonoured Lyanna, Rickard, and Robert. And personal honour wise, I doubt they felt dishonoured about a bedding without marriage anyway. So he wasn't saving anyones personal honour either.

Likewise with Robb. He wasn't saving Jeynes personal honour or how she felt about her self. They fell in love. They probably didn't regret their night. What Robb was saving was her social honour, the way other people perceived her, and it works because she wasn't betrothed to anyone else.

[TimJames]

That's what I meant - that he stayed true to the one love of his life.

Do you hear yourself?

"He didn't love Elia, so he was completely justified publicly humiliating her and leaving her and the children she bore him to die at the hands of a rapist." No, he wasn't. Elia wasn't cruel or selfish, she was a nice and loving woman who didn't deserve to be betrayed as thoroughly as Rhaegar betrayed her. Make no mistake, his treatment of Elia is evidence enough that he was an awful person.

You can bet that if this happened in in real life, Elia would be hiring a divorce lawyer.

None of that is even getting into the point that Lyanna was probably imprisoned against her will and raped. If Rhaegar was doing it all for a prophecy, there's no way he'd take no for an answer.

[Cas Stark]

I don't think Rhaegar raped her, and I lean toward the idea that she was infatuated/in love with him, but I don't see how you can get around that there was bad decision making and "dishonor" everywhere you look.

She didn't break her engagement with Robert, whether she could have technically done it on her own w/out her father's approval or not, she didn't try. No letter ever went to Bob. She simply ran off with Rhaegar, assuming it was willing, and let everyone think she was abducted.

And there is similarly, no way around him dishonoring his wife by running off with a younger woman. He also dishonored Robert, because he ran off with his fiancee. If he wanted to restart polygamy then the way to do it was have Lyanna break her engagement, and then marry him. Not run off together, starting a war, because her family thinks she's been abducted against her will, and then his bat shit insane father has them killed in the most sickening way possible.

[Maid So Fair]

Do you hear yourself?

"He didn't love Elia, so he was completely justified publicly humiliating her and leaving her and the children she bore him to die at the hands of a rapist." No, he wasn't. Elia wasn't cruel or selfish, she was a nice and loving woman who didn't deserve to be betrayed as thoroughly as Rhaegar betrayed her. Make no mistake, his treatment of Elia is evidence enough that he was an awful person.

You can bet that if this happened in in real life, Elia would be hiring a divorce lawyer.

None of that is even getting into the point that Lyanna was probably imprisoned against her will and raped. If Rhaegar was doing it all for a prophecy, there's no way he'd take no for an answer.

As Dolorous Edd, the true prophet of Westeros, has already foreseen, death is no longer a good excuse for not doing your duty in protecting the Wall your wife and children.

[TimJames]

As Dolorous Edd, the true prophet of Westeros, has already foreseen, death is no longer a good excuse for not doing your duty in protecting the Wall your wife and children.

He wouldn't be dead if he didn't kidnap someone else's betrothed. In fact, his wife and children wouldn't even need protecting in that instance because the war wouldn't have happened.

If you heard that a married man ran away with his secretary and spent the rest of his life pretending his wife and children don't exist, than you'd call him a scumbag. That's what Rhaegar is at the end of the day.

[TimJames]

I don't think Rhaegar raped her, and I lean toward the idea that she was infatuated/in love with him, but I don't see how you can get around that there was bad decision making and "dishonor" everywhere you look.

She didn't break her engagement with Robert, whether she could have technically done it on her own w/out her father's approval or not, she didn't try. No letter ever went to Bob. She simply ran off with Rhaegar, assuming it was willing, and let everyone think she was abducted.

And there is similarly, no way around him dishonoring his wife by running off with a younger woman. He also dishonored Robert, because he ran off with his fiancee. If he wanted to restart polygamy then the way to do it was have Lyanna break her engagement, and then marry him. Not run off together, starting a war, because her family thinks she's been abducted against her will, and then his bat shit insane father has them killed in the most sickening way possible.

This right here is why I do not like Rhaegar: he is a horrible person no matter how you look at it. If he kidnapped and raped Lyanna (what I think happened) than he is a monster for obvious reasons. If Lyanna ran away with him willingly (this I have a hard time believing) than then are both horrible people.

In either case, Rhaegar still 1. Publicly told everyone he doesn't love his wife by crowning another woman (it is after all the crown of LOVE and beauty) 2. betrayed said wife by running off with another woman and leaving Elia and her children alone with her homicidal father-in-law 3. ruined Robert's life and 4. caused a massive civil war.

This quote from the Iliad best sums up what I think of Rhaegar.

"Can you be the man who carried off a beautiful woman from a distant land and warlike family, to be a curse to your father, to the city, and to the whole people? Are you too cowardly to stand up to the brave man whom you wronged? You will soon find out the kind of fighter he is whose lovely wife you stole."

[Maid So Fair]

He wouldn't be dead if he didn't kidnap someone else's betrothed. In fact, his wife and children wouldn't even need protecting in that instance because the war wouldn't have happened.

If you heard that a married man ran away with his secretary and spent the rest of his life pretending his wife and children don't exist, than you'd call him a scumbag. That's what Rhaegar is at the end of the day.

The rebellion didn't start because of Lyanna - it started because Aerys was mad and brutally murdered Brandon and Rickard and called for Ned and Robert's head.

[Cas Stark]

This right here is why I do not like Rhaegar: he is a horrible person no matter how you look at it. If he kidnapped and raped Lyanna (what I think happened) than he is a monster for obvious reasons. If Lyanna ran away with him willingly (this I have a hard time believing) than then are both horrible people.

In either case, Rhaegar still 1. Publicly told everyone he doesn't love his wife by crowning another woman (it is after all the crown of LOVE and beauty) 2. betrayed said wife by running off with another woman and leaving Elia and her children alone with her homicidal father-in-law 3. ruined Robert's life and 4. caused a massive civil war.

This quote from the Iliad best sums up what I think of Rhaegar.

"Can you be the man who carried off a beautiful woman from a distant land and warlike family, to be a curse to your father, to the city, and to the whole people? Are you too cowardly to stand up to the brave man whom you wronged? You will soon find out the kind of fighter he is whose lovely wife you stole."

LOL. I would like to think that Rhaegar had some kind of a plan in mind, but it went haywire, since everyone who knew him, except for Bob, has only good things to say about him..he's thoughtful, intelligent, brave, etc.

It seems very out of character for him to cook up a totally crackpot scheme of running off with the Stormlord's fiancee, who is also the daughter of the Warden of the North without a word to anyone or any kind of plan or forethought of how such an action was going to play out beyond that he has to have that third fire and ice kid. And then, no word again to anyone for months on end, as the whole thing spirals into a full scale revolution until he eventually rides out to kill Bob, the guy who he has personally wronged. Hopefully the author will answer this for us, but maybe not.

[Ygrain]

Do you hear yourself?

"He didn't love Elia, so he was completely justified publicly humiliating her and leaving her and the children she bore him to die at the hands of a rapist." No, he wasn't. Elia wasn't cruel or selfish, she was a nice and loving woman who didn't deserve to be betrayed as thoroughly as Rhaegar betrayed her. Make no mistake, his treatment of Elia is evidence enough that he was an awful person.

You can bet that if this happened in in real life, Elia would be hiring a divorce lawyer.

None of that is even getting into the point that Lyanna was probably imprisoned against her will and raped. If Rhaegar was doing it all for a prophecy, there's no way he'd take no for an answer.

Because Rhaegar totally could have foreseen that this would happen, or even intended it to happen, and Ned acknowledges that his sister's rapist wasn't the kind of guy who sleeps around and doesn't care for his children. Apparently.

I have you on my Ignore list for a reason, and it would be nice if you did likewise because I really have to say to you.

[TimJames]

LOL. I would like to think that Rhaegar had some kind of a plan in mind, but it went haywire, since everyone who knew him, except for Bob, has only good things to say about him..he's thoughtful, intelligent, brave, etc.

Rhaegar was not universally popular. Brandon challenged him to a duel to the death, Bran said he was a rapist, he probably heard that from Eddard, and even Daenarys can't defend his betraying Elia (she grew up thinking Elia was a mega-bitch because that is the only way Daenarys could reconcile the idea of Rhaegar she has in her head with the things he actually did).

He's neither thoughtful or intelligent, as he threw everything down the pooper for some vague prophecy which might not even be true. He's not brave because he spent the whole war in a tower with Lyanna and only fought in one battle.

I'm being completly serious when I say Rhaegar might have been undergoing the early onset of Targaryen Madness.

[Annara Snow]

In either case, Rhaegar still 1. Publicly told everyone he doesn't love his wife by crowning another woman (it is after all the crown of LOVE and beauty) "

That's supposed to be shocking? LOL It's Westeros. Marrying for love is extremely rare. You're not supposed to love your wife/husband. If you do, that's nice, but it's not a requirement, and no one gives a fuck if you do or don't. You're just supposed to "do your duty" and marry for politics/produce heirs/unite lands. Love doesn't come into it, certainly not romantic love. The idea of marriage and romantic love being one and the same is historically a recent one. In fact, in real life Middle Ages produced the concept of Courtly Love, which was, by definition, adulterous.