The Riverlands Web V.6

[Wizz-The-Smith]

The more beautiful queen, perhaps?

That very thought had crossed my mind. Would be a cool connection between Maggy and the beautiful queen prophecy !

[Wizz-The-Smith]

First off, I'd like to say this thread is great. No arguing and really great analysis. This is my first post here, BTW.

So, I agree that Jeyne, post-RW seems to have toughened up from the lovestruck girl we saw in ASoS. I was a bit confused about possible switched identities due to Jaime's narrow hips comment, but this was just a lapse in GRRM's continuity, IIRC.

But remember when Tywin tells Tyrion that his little plan will work because Robb is his father's son and Jeyne is her mother's daughter.

Is this just another underestimation of a child by their parent, or was Tywin hinting that Jeyne wasn't just obedient but complicit? Did this change with her falling in love or when she sees her mother for the "scheming turncloak bitch" that she is?

I can't wait to see what happens with her in the next book's prologue, hopefully Jeyne will prove she's more her father's daughter than Tywin thought.

Hey SnowCastle, thanks and welcome, bookie does a great job running this thread, nice post BTW. I too have wondered about this comment, it could well be taken that Jeyne was complicit in the scheming. And it is still a bit ambiguous as to what Tywin actually based this comment on.

But with what we know of Jeyne and Raynald Westerling, and their apparent support of Robb, plus Grey Wind's approval. And add the poor opinion of the Spicer's, I think/hope there are clues enough to show Jeyne was unaware, and as you suggest Sybell 'was a scheming turncloak bitch'.

So basically, I'm hoping that comment was an assumption from Tywin due to Sybell thinking she can control Jeyne. It seems to fit with Robb. But let's hope he misjudged Sybell's daughter, and as you say, she turns out to be more her fathers daughter. Or at least nothing like her mother ! :)

[LongRider]

Welcome SnowCastle

~~~~snip~~~
But remember when Tywin tells Tyrion that his little plan will work because Robb is his father's son and Jeyne is her mother's daughter.

Is this just another underestimation of a child by their parent, or was Tywin hinting that Jeyne wasn't just obedient but complicit? Did this change with her falling in love or when she sees her mother for the "scheming turncloak bitch" that she is?

I can't wait to see what happens with her in the next book's prologue, hopefully Jeyne will prove she's more her father's daughter than Tywin thought.

~~~snip~~~

So basically, I'm hoping that comment was an assumption from Tywin due to Sybell thinking she can control Jeyne. It seems to fit with Robb. But let's hope he misjudged Sybell's daughter, and as you say, she turns out to be more her fathers daughter. Or at least nothing like her mother ! :)

Which brings to mind a couple of questions. Was Jeyne a maid? Had she been 'spoiled' and this was a plan to exploit that? Get Robb to do the nasty with Jeyne then Sybelle could cry 'foul' and force a marriage? Only to have Jeyne actually fall in love with Robb. She certainly won Cat over.

[SnowCastle]

I didn't even think of that angle on Jeyne...I hope Sybell is the prologue POV, and not just because that means she'll probably be shuffling off this mortal coil. I guess I thought maybe she had been indoctrinating Jeyne with the rules of the Game. She seemed so innocent and Sansa-like when we first met her.

Anyway, thanks for the welcome!

[LongRider]

Wizz said " 2nd Bold.] I agree with all of this, however I can't shake the idea that the HM seemed instantly surprised to see Theon. Even with info and a back story Raynald still wouldn't know what Theon looked like. And if he had been watching him, therefore able to ID him, why the surprise ?

Ok Wizz-Kidd, this is for you. You and your damned Hooded Man! LOL! I just wanted to see what the chapters may have as far as Theon being known by the folks in WF for the wedding. So, here's the list;

At the wedding when he presents the bride he says when asked who gives the bride "Theon of House Greyjoy, who was her father's ward."

When he's in the Great Hall for the wedding feast he is walking among the benches and someone says "Theon Turncloak." Other men turned away from him and one spat. Even one the washerwomen calls him 'Theon Greyjoy.'

Several days later when going out the Battlements Gate for a walk one of the two guards calls him "Turnclock." It was two days later when Theon runs into the Hooded Man and the HM calls him "Theon Turncloak. Theon Kinslayer."

Among the Northman's names mentioned are the Houses of: Ryswells, Unmber, Flint of Flint's Finger, Hornwood, Manderly, Cerwyn and Tallhart.

After several murders Theon is questioned by Roose about his wanderings of WF and says "Men have reported seeing you in the stables, in the kitchens, in the barracks and on the battlements. You have been observed near the ruins of collapsed keeps, outside Lady Catelyn's old sept, coming and going from the Godswood."

So all this is just to show that Theon was not unknown at WF and many called him 'Turncloak' and such and even the washerwomen knew his name. So, I would say the HM knowing his name is not out of the ordinary.

As for the HM being surprised by Theon, I would suggest that that is a matter of interpretation, and one that YMMV.

So, I hope this helps in your quest for the HM. :)

[Hrafntýr]

Ok Wizz-Kidd, this is for you. You and your damned Hooded Man! LOL! I just wanted to see what the chapters may have as far as Theon being known by the folks in WF for the wedding. So, here's the list;

At the wedding when he presents the bride he says when asked who gives the bride "Theon of House Greyjoy, who was her father's ward."

When he's in the Great Hall for the wedding feast he is walking among the benches and someone says "Theon Turncloak." Other men turned away from him and one spat. Even one the washerwomen calls him 'Theon Greyjoy.'

Several days later when going out the Battlements Gate for a walk one of the two guards calls him "Turnclock." It was two days later when Theon runs into the Hooded Man and the HM calls him "Theon Turncloak. Theon Kinslayer."

Among the Northman's names mentioned are the Houses of: Ryswells, Unmber, Flint of Flint's Finger, Hornwood, Manderly, Cerwyn and Tallhart.

After several murders Theon is questioned by Roose about his wanderings of WF and says "Men have reported seeing you in the stables, in the kitchens, in the barracks and on the battlements. You have been observed near the ruins of collapsed keeps, outside Lady Catelyn's old sept, coming and going from the Godswood."

So all this is just to show that Theon was not unknown at WF and many called him 'Turncloak' and such and even the washerwomen knew his name. So, I would say the HM knowing his name is not out of the ordinary.

As for the HM being surprised by Theon, I would suggest that that is a matter of interpretation, and one that YMMV.

So, I hope this helps in your quest for the HM. :)

I think the shibboleth here is the label "Theon Kinslayer." Yes, everybody knows who Theon is, and it's common to see him called Turncloak. The Hooded Man has to be someone for whom Theon's killing of Bran and Rickon/the miller's boys amounts to kinslaying. I know this has been covered in lots of other threads, but it does seem to be the crux of the matter. The only individuals who refer to Theon as kinslayer are the Hooded Man, Rowan, and

Mors Umber, in the WoW chapter.

Even though I've been on Team Robett for Hooded Man, the above logic would support Harwin as Hooded Man, since one could argue that the Kinslayer designation would make sense for someone who had seen Theon treated as brother to the Stark children.

[LongRider]

I think the shibboleth here is the label "Theon Kinslayer." Yes, everybody knows who Theon is, and it's common to see him called Turncloak. The Hooded Man has to be someone for whom Theon's killing of Bran and Rickon/the miller's boys amounts to kinslaying. I know this has been covered in lots of other threads, but it does seem to be the crux of the matter. The only individuals who refer to Theon as kinslayer are the Hooded Man, Rowan, and

Mors Umber, in the WoW chapter.

Even though I've been on Team Robett for Hooded Man, the above logic would support Harwin as Hooded Man, since one could argue that the Kinslayer designation would make sense for someone who had seen Theon treated as brother to the Stark children.

Ahh! Great points, and Harwin is a missing BWB member to boot.

[Wizz-The-Smith]

Ok Wizz-Kidd, this is for you. You and your damned Hooded Man! LOL! I just wanted to see what the chapters may have as far as Theon being known by the folks in WF for the wedding. So, here's the list;

At the wedding when he presents the bride he says when asked who gives the bride "Theon of House Greyjoy, who was her father's ward."

When he's in the Great Hall for the wedding feast he is walking among the benches and someone says "Theon Turncloak." Other men turned away from him and one spat. Even one the washerwomen calls him 'Theon Greyjoy.'

Several days later when going out the Battlements Gate for a walk one of the two guards calls him "Turnclock." It was two days later when Theon runs into the Hooded Man and the HM calls him "Theon Turncloak. Theon Kinslayer."

Among the Northman's names mentioned are the Houses of: Ryswells, Unmber, Flint of Flint's Finger, Hornwood, Manderly, Cerwyn and Tallhart.

After several murders Theon is questioned by Roose about his wanderings of WF and says "Men have reported seeing you in the stables, in the kitchens, in the barracks and on the battlements. You have been observed near the ruins of collapsed keeps, outside Lady Catelyn's old sept, coming and going from the Godswood."

So all this is just to show that Theon was not unknown at WF and many called him 'Turncloak' and such and even the washerwomen knew his name. So, I would say the HM knowing his name is not out of the ordinary.

As for the HM being surprised by Theon, I would suggest that that is a matter of interpretation, and one that YMMV.

So, I hope this helps in your quest for the HM. :)

Haha ! Thanks Longie. TBH, I'm not too bothered by the HM, and not sure how important he'll be moving forward. But I like discussing and researching these little mysteries. It often leads to chat/opinions on the text as well, which helps me get a clearer picture of things. [ I think.] :P

Which leads me nicely into saying, good work putting all the references and whereabouts of Theon in WF in one post, very interesting. And I like the post from Hrafntyr, that's a great point, that no one in WF had referred to him as kinslayer until the HM.

YMMV ? I had to look that up. Lol ! Definitely, everyone's take on things are different, and you're right to point that out. :D

[LongRider]

Haha ! Thanks Longie. TBH, I'm not too bothered by the HM, and not sure how important he'll be moving forward. But I like discussing and researching these little mysteries. It often leads to chat/opinions on the text as well, which helps me get a clearer picture of things. [ I think.] :P

Which leads me nicely into saying, good work putting all the references and whereabouts of Theon in WF in one post, very interesting. And I like the post from Hrafntyr, that's a great point, that no one in WF had referred to him as kinslayer until the HM.

YMMV ? I had to look that up. Lol ! Definitely, everyone's take on things are different, and you're right to point that out. :D

Yes, I didn't really notice that until pointed out either. Which was the point of the exercise; sussing out the small details to see what's there. Like panning for gold in it's own little way.

:cheers:

[Wizz-The-Smith]

I think the shibboleth here is the label "Theon Kinslayer." Yes, everybody knows who Theon is, and it's common to see him called Turncloak. The Hooded Man has to be someone for whom Theon's killing of Bran and Rickon/the miller's boys amounts to kinslaying. I know this has been covered in lots of other threads, but it does seem to be the crux of the matter. The only individuals who refer to Theon as kinslayer are the Hooded Man, Rowan, and

Mors Umber, in the WoW chapter.

Even though I've been on Team Robett for Hooded Man, the above logic would support Harwin as Hooded Man, since one could argue that the Kinslayer designation would make sense for someone who had seen Theon treated as brother to the Stark children.

Nice post Hrafntyr, great point. And thanks, I hadn't seen this before, and it does offer some logic to the case of Harwin. I too was team Robett for a while, but have been drawn towards team Harwin. :)

[Wizz-The-Smith]

Yes, I didn't really notice that until pointed out either. Which was the point of the exercise; sussing out the small details to see what's there. Like panning for gold in it's own little way.

:cheers:

Great idea. Nice to have in one post anyway, but led to both of us finding something we had not noticed. Again good work Longie, and Hrafntyr ! :)

[Booknerd2]

Just an update….

Massively busy….I will try to check in when I can.

Until Beric Part 2 please feel free to rehash.

[LongRider]

Hi Bookie!

The threads been quiet. Glad to see you, hope all is well.

:)

[LongRider]

I just realized something. There is a big parallel between Sandor and the Stark girls; they both have an important family member who is one of the un-dead. I know, I know, it should have been obvious to me earlier, but I just put it together.

Gee, what a thing to have in common with someone. :ack:

[Wizz-The-Smith]

Hey Longie, hope you well ! Good point, it's so obvious now you say it ! But I hadn't linked these two either. It's funny you mentioned this, as I have seen something that I hadn't linked before as well.

I studied Jaime's chapters in AFFC [ as you know ] and linked some BWB stuff, but apparently missed a cool little tidbit. The two Lord's Vance that are present on Jaime's war council are, Karyl Vance of Wayfairers Rest, and Norbert Vance of Atranta.

Karyl Vance is described as having a winestain birthmark on one side of his face and neck. And Norbert Vance is blind. They are described within pages of each other. And with such similar descriptions, and the link of them both being named Vance, this screamed Bloodraven to me. The winestain birthmark and blindness are so similar. [ admittedly one eye.] :dunno:

Also, a little later, we know Karyl Vance convinced Jaime to travel to Raventree Hall [ the keep/castle of BR house.] and parlay with the Blackwood's and Bracken's. [ later to meet with Brienne. As I've said before, I think he was set up.] Perhaps nothing :dunno: but I thought this a nice little coincidence if nothing else.

And another thing is their sigil's, one has a green dragon and the other has a black. Perhaps insinuating the historical battle between the greens and blacks ? Certainly Bloodraven territory. [ although Vance are an old house.] I don't know, I have detail overload ! :P

EDIT : GRRM has cited Jack Vance as a fav author of his, and has multiple nods throughout the series to various others. So I have my eye on the Lord's Vance.

[Wizz-The-Smith]

Just an update….

Massively busy….I will try to check in when I can.

Until Beric Part 2 please feel free to rehash.

Hey bookie ! I missed this little update. Hope you well ! :D

[Good Guy Garlan]

Hey Longie, hope you well ! Good point, it's so obvious now you say it ! But I hadn't linked these two either. It's funny you mentioned this, as I have seen something that I hadn't linked before as well.

I studied Jaime's chapters in AFFC [ as you know ] and linked some BWB stuff, but apparently missed a cool little tidbit. The two Lord's Vance that are present on Jaime's war council are, Karyl Vance of Wayfairers Rest, and Norbert Vance of Atranta.

Karyl Vance is described as having a winestain birthmark on one side of his face and neck. And Norbert Vance is blind. They are described within pages of each other. And with such similar descriptions, and the link of them both being named Vance, this screamed Bloodraven to me. The winestain birthmark and blindness are so similar. [ admittedly one eye.] :dunno:

Also, a little later, we know Karyl Vance convinced Jaime to travel to Raventree Hall [ the keep/castle of BR house.] and parlay with the Blackwood's and Bracken's. [ later to meet with Brienne. As I've said before, I think he was set up.] Perhaps nothing :dunno: but I thought this a nice little coincidence if nothing else.

And another thing is their sigil's, one has a green dragon and the other has a black. Perhaps insinuating the historical battle between the greens and blacks ? Certainly Bloodraven territory. [ although Vance are an old house.] I don't know, I have detail overload ! :P

EDIT : GRRM has cited Jack Vance as a fav author of his, and has multiple nods throughout the series to various others. So I have my eye on the Lord's Vance.

That's a good catch on the Vances (cue the "BR must be warging them!" crackpots :p)

I just remembered something from Jaime's chapters in AFfC that caught my eye. It's a very small scene about Jaime and company finding some outlaws and deserters shacked up somewhere in the Riverlands. Jaime hangs them and pats himself on the back because one of them was dressed as a Lannister soldier and Jaime hanged him anyway, showing great impartiality or whatever.

Anyway, my idea is that maybe the guy wasn't a Lannister soldier, but he was only dressed like one after stealing the attire. Coupled with Thoros' dismay at Lem for stealing Rorge's (Sandor's) helmet, I wonder if the BwB have taken to stealing from their victims (particularly of the Lannister variety) and now are infiltrated the infantry, maybe even Edmure's party

[Hrafntýr]

@ Wizz-The-Smith: Nice work there with the Vances; I'd add that Acorn Hall/House Smallwood is sworn to the Wayfarer's Rest Vances.

And Jon of the (Evil) Dead: That's a great extrapolation from the Jaime scene!

[Le Cygne]

<snip>

Very interesting! The Blackwood and Bracken part just reminded me of the part where the EB said they bury Blackwood and Bracken side by side, and there's this:

"All we do is cut and polish the wood. We are blessed here. Where the river meets the bay, the currents and the tides wrestle one against the other, and many strange and wondrous things are pushed toward us, to wash up on our shores. Driftwood is the least of it. We have found... rusted helms and shining swords..."

Wrestling one against the other, she and the Hound are at odds, but they shouldn't be. The rusted helm, the Hound is dead. Her shining sword, Oathkeeper. The strange thing is Driftwood, Stranger, who refused to be cut and polished. He tries to tell Brienne in about ten different ways that Sandor is there, but he's not the one she seeks. It's just funny, how he keeps laying it on.

[Wizz-The-Smith]

That's a good catch on the Vances (cue the "BR must be warging them!" crackpots :P)

I just remembered something from Jaime's chapters in AFfC that caught my eye. It's a very small scene about Jaime and company finding some outlaws and deserters shacked up somewhere in the Riverlands. Jaime hangs them and pats himself on the back because one of them was dressed as a Lannister soldier and Jaime hanged him anyway, showing great impartiality or whatever.

Anyway, my idea is that maybe the guy wasn't a Lannister soldier, but he was only dressed like one after stealing the attire. Coupled with Thoros' dismay at Lem for stealing Rorge's (Sandor's) helmet, I wonder if the BwB have taken to stealing from their victims (particularly of the Lannister variety) and now are infiltrated the infantry, maybe even Edmure's party

Cheers Jon. I like your thinking regarding the possible infiltration technique of using stolen clothing to blend in. I remember the scene but will have to look at that again. I wonder if there's any more instances like that ?

@ Wizz-The-Smith: Nice work there with the Vances; I'd add that Acorn Hall/House Smallwood is sworn to the Wayfarer's Rest Vances.

And Jon of the (Evil) Dead: That's a great extrapolation from the Jaime scene!

Thanks Hrafntyr. Nice point about Acorn Hall. We know these houses have all helped the BWB as well. ;)