The Riverlands Web V.6

[Le Cygne]

Quotesies (Parallels in TWOW):

Sansa watches Sandor joust in the tourney where Sandor saved Loras, and Sandor is the champion (defeating Baratheon, Lannister, and Tyrell). In the second of two tourneys Sansa has watched, she thinks this about Sandor, who helps her save Dontos ("The girl speaks truly"):

"Is the Hound the champion now?"... Sansa had the right of it...

He had been the champion at her father's tourney, Sansa remembered.

When it looked like Sandor was about to fall from his horse, Sansa gasped, she didn't want it to happen (also, Jaime ended up falling on his head), but she wants Harry to fall on his head:

Sansa was watching it all moist-eyed and eager...

Wood shattered, and the Hound reeled, fighting to keep his seat. Sansa gasped... This time, when Jaime shifted his seat, Sandor Clegane shifted with him. Both lances exploded, and by the time the splinters had settled, a riderless blood bay was trotting off in search of grass while Ser Jaime Lannister rolled in the dirt, golden and dented...

Sansa said, "I knew the Hound would win." ...

Jaime Lannister was back on his feet, but his ornate lion helmet had been twisted around and dented in his fall, and now he could not get it off.

And may your horse stumble, Harry the Heir, so you fall on your stupid head in your first tilt.

Sansa thinking of "another kiss" - Sandor's kiss - and finding someone to wear her favor at the third tourney:

As the boy's lips touched her own she found herself thinking of another kiss. She could still remember how it felt, when his cruel mouth pressed down on her own.

"You may not. It is promised to… another." She was not sure who as yet, but she knew she would find someone.

Sandor was the only one in the Kingsguard to keep her safe, and she wants a Kingsguard for Sweetrobin to keep him safe:

I would be gladder if it were the Hound, Sansa thought. Harsh as he was, she did not believe Sandor Clegane would let any harm come to her...

"I could keep you safe," he rasped. "They're all afraid of me. No one would hurt you again, or I'd kill them."

His own Kingsguard, to keep him safe and make him brave.

She thinks Lothor is Sandor in a previous chapter, and she runs into him just the way she ran into Sandor, and he says arse, which Sandor likes to say, and he disses Harry:

She was racing headlong down the serpentine steps when a man lurched out of a hidden doorway. Sansa caromed into him and lost her balance. Iron fingers caught her by the wrist before she could fall...

It was Lothor Brune's voice, she realized. Not the Hound's, no, how could it be? Of course it had to be Lothor...

"Well, bugger your ribbons, and shove your swords up your arses. I’m the same as you. The only difference is, I don’t lie about what I am."

They made a race of it...

Near the keep, she ran headlong into Ser Lothor Brune and almost knocked him off his feet. “Harry the Heir? Harry the Arse, I say. He’s just some upjumped squire.”

Alayne was so grateful that she hugged him...

His hand shot out and caught her arm before she could fall.

Sandor often mocked knights:

As they were winding their way up the steps, she said, "Why do you let people call you a dog? You won't let anyone call you a knight."

"I like dogs better than knights... A hound will die for you, but never lie to you."

And now:

After that Ser Roland Waynwood swept her up and made her laugh with mocking comments about half the other knights in the hall.

In a prior passage, she defends Sandor's "jousting" and now there are similar references:

Of late Ser Osmund had taken Sandor Clegane's place by Joffrey's side, and Sansa had heard the women at the washing well saying he was as strong as the Hound, only younger and faster. If that was so, she wondered why she had never once heard of these Kettleblacks before Ser Osmund was named to the Kingsguard...

I will dream a sweet dream, and when I wake there will be dogs barking, women gossiping beside the well, swords ringing in the yard.

Above, behind her, is the giant's lance, that's LF. Below, ahead, the yellow of autumn grass, that's Sandor. Lingering, ready:

Though snow had blanketed the heights of the Giant’s Lance above, below the mountain the autumn lingered and winter wheat was ripening in the fields. Outside the window she could hear the laughter of the washerwomen at the well, the din of steel on steel from the ward where the knights were at their drills. Good sounds.

She also thinks about Sweetrobin's long hair just before she thinks of kissing Sandor (who wears his hair long):

She sat on the bed and smoothed his long, fine hair. He does have pretty hair... Alayne wound a lock around her finger... As the boy's lips touched her own she found herself thinking of another kiss.

Alayne smoothed his hair. He does have pretty hair. If the gods are good and he lives long enough to wed, his wife will admire his hair, surely.

Alayne is supposed to be from Gulltown, and she "remembers" Sandor's kiss, something that will come up again ("You will see, in A STORM OF SWORDS and later volumes, that Sansa remembers the Hound kissing her..."):

He had come to Sansa in the darkness as green fire filled the sky. He took a song and a kiss, and left me nothing but a bloody cloak.

"I remember Gulltown fondly," she told him, with a smile as vague as it was pleasant.

Tom Sevenstrings sings a song about stealing a sweet kiss from a fair maid in Gulltown before Sandor reappears in the narrative in book 3:

Off to Gulltown to see the fair maid, heigh-ho, heigh-ho
I'll steal a sweet kiss with the point of my blade, heigh-ho, heigh-ho
I'll make her my love and we'll rest in the shade, heigh-ho, heigh-ho

Dunk thinks of the same song while digging a grave on a slope, and later Sandor digs a grave on a slope:

The spring rains had softened the ground, so Dunk had no trouble digging the grave. He chose a spot on the western slope of a low hill... Only a few days past, he had been singing as they rode, the old song about going to Gulltown to see a fair maid...

With one hard yank he pulled her down on top of him and kissed her...

But when they finally broke apart, he drew his dagger. "I know what I want to remember you by, m'lady."

On the upper slopes they saw three boys driving sheep, and higher still they passed a lichyard where a brother bigger than Brienne was struggling to dig a grave.

He yanked her closer, and for a moment she thought he meant to kiss her...

"I'll have that song. Florian and Jonquil, you said." His dagger was out, poised at her throat..

And there are other Dunk and Sandor parallels...

[Mad Madam Mim]

Absence as comparatively insipid, hold that thought... :)

Something that's been running throughout her story since the series began, a presence the reader expects to find, and then looks for, just like she's looking.

There's a part in Jane Eyre, she had a thing for a fierce guy, too.

She compares Mr. Rochester to other men, and looking at a guy most would consider handsome, is flat out bored, because that's not for her:

So we are seeing "comparatively insipid" in this chapter. Those other guys.

I've always thought, it's really important for him to be seen as Sansa's choice.

The other men in the story, the contrast, she didn't choose. Someone else chose them for her.

This has to be seen as Sansa's choice. And that may be what he's setting about doing here.

I love the Jane Eyre comparison, and there are many parallels. If Sandor is Mr. Rochester, then Littlefinger is St. John Rivers. I am very tempted to dust off my copy of Jane Eyre and have a re-read with that thought in mind! There is so much to compare!

With regards to Bookie's great Littlefinger essay...

Laptop hay wire…let us try again.

Alayne ramblings

Part 1 - Littlefinger

Read it once and then had to go out, but just a few things. I really want to give it distance and then go back in a few days and read and let it marinate and see how it goes, because more often than not, there is a big difference between a first impression and how you may take something, and then even a few hours or days or longer will alter it to different degrees. And with this series, years of re-reads yield so many different things because it is just amazing.

Though LF hasn’t stepped foot there, this is technically another tourney given by a Lord of Harrenhal.

And we know how those things go…

Absolutely! Historical parallels aside, we all know how tourney's in Westeros tend to go...dis.as.ter! I am assuming this is the chapter that was moved to the WoW which certainly suggests this chapter is the calm before the storm and some of the Riverland folk may be able to use it to their advantage,

Nothing much to say about that now, but the very nature of the event is something I’ll keep in mind for down the road. Also, from the past history of tourneys….

Do I wish she could get away here? Yeah, but I doubt it will happen. It seems like more an event to be the catalyst for future events, just like the last one was, and for pieces to be put together by some that are there.

This is the best chance for her to get grabbed, nabbed for a rescue attempt, or escape. And that is probably why it is not going to happen.

It appears on the surface like two girls dishing in general at one point, and we see Robert Arryn too, but there is a lot going on, and yeah, between the lines.

It is pointed out to us again the menacing reach of LF. That he exerts a lot of control over all kinds of people and events. And also Sansa still tangibly, but…mind and heart are another matter entirely for her. There is tension and suspense regarding what he has up his sleeve, and what he is really thinking and planning, but we see she has changed, is rallying, and she is not necessarily going to go with the program. She sounds older and reacts differently in certain ways then she has before, and it was moving, because there is a remarkable difference in progression from the girl we met in book 1 on through to this, and a big one from the last time we checked up on her.

You summed it up perfectly with Sansa's "mind and heart are another matter" and with the new chapter, we are being given the mind, but we are not given a glimpse of Sansa's heart. Sansa is playing along with Littlefinger's schemes, her inner monologue in the Alayne chapter is consistently placing the emphasis on Harry needing to like her, she offers us nothing on her thoughts about her needing to like him. She is not doing this for her, she is not acting as a free agent, LF is still ultimately pulling the strings and for the time being she is playing along. This what makes her last sentence about her favour so powerful, this is finally about the heart.

So the red alert is still sounding loudly to watch LF like he is going to jump out like a Whack a Mole, out of any hole ( plan he has) and that we should worry about where the blows he wants to deal are going to come from. That if his mouth is running, it could be several things besides what he actually says. Ok, we know that. We know a lot of stuff I mentioned. That there are most likely several pots cooking and even more on low on the backburner. Got that too. But I also think the danger of hot water, his bullshit, is starting to condense because its been burning too long. He’s had his way too long and is about to overreach himself here. That he seems to have done that already. And many suspect he has already laid the groundwork down on the road to his ruination, and much of it self-induced.

His plans B-Z, let’s call A always what he “tells” Sansa or someone else he screwed, like Ned, or is about to; that is what I always worry about. Not what he says, but what I don’t know.

And always: Hey, when he gives an A, is there some truth to it, because sometimes there is? Like when he told Ned to not trust him. Bitch wasn’t lying…

There may be in an element of truth in plan, but I do not think he is honest with Sansa. He has not told her his grand plan in the slightest and she is still a piece he is manipulating. ,

Incidentally, in line with the heart over mind matter, LF probably thinks he is playing with Sansa's heart by offering her power and Winterfell. This is all wrong, wrong, wrong. It is not power she wants, but to be loved for herself and have her family back. This is a big mistake on LF's part and could cost him dearly in the future when Sansa surprises him.

So I felt a little relief that to be careful, wary, and watch out for LF…I mean, how much more can it go on? At this point it sort of tells me that the end of dominance is coming to an end, and it can’t go on for too much longer after this chapter. Still a ways to go, but it’s getting there. Like: Nearing home stretch, just a little longer to fear him, Bookie…I say to myself.

And that makes me feel better. He is the scariest villain ever. He makes any moustache twirler look like a fairy princess.

So, again, all of this is just my opinion and what I took from it on a rushed re-read, with a dog barking at me like crazy this morning as I attempted to get ready to go out and get some stuff done. (Hey Webbers, is this a sign? More on the Hound and Stranger in part 2.)

We know how LF works for several books. This might be one of the very last reminders before the crap hits the fan for him. What he was and what he could do at the top of his game. The pinnacle celebration…and those usually get shot to shit too.

The same happened for Cersei and Joffrey, but that was a wedding. And they got cheated, because they didn’t have the full hours. He died during it. Try cutting some couple short with their wedding at a venue today.

And that is not to say all will go smooth for this jackass LF at his tourney either, and if it all does, every single thing, then know that was among the last for him. And he better enjoy it.

I believe they call it a Swan Song…that is the nugget that prickled my spine reading this.

LF, I hate you, and it will never be this good again. Your 67 courses, your custom cake….over soon buddy.

Oh how sweet justice would it be if that ginomous lemon cake gave the right people the clue they needed that Sansa was in the vale and ultimately lead to LF's downfall.

And it would be funny because we know/suspect that he was involved with the damage caused at Joff’s wedding, so I am holding out too, that his gathering somehow gets ruined also. Or puts things in motion that screws him later.

[Booknerd2]

Quotesies:

Sansa watches Sandor joust in the tourney where Sandor saved Loras, and Sandor is the champion (defeating Baratheon, Lannister, and Tyrell):

In the second of two tourneys Sansa has watched, she thinks this about Sandor, who helps her save Dontos ("The girl speaks truly"):

When it looked like Sandor was about to fall from his horse, Sansa gasped, she didn't want it to happen (also, Jaime ended up falling on his head), but she wants Harry to fall on his head:

Sansa thinking of "another kiss" - Sandor's kiss - and finding someone to wear her favor at the third tourney:

Sandor was the only one in the Kingsguard to keep her safe, and she wants a Kingsguard for Sweetrobin to keep him safe:

She thinks Lothor is Sandor in a previous chapter, and she runs into him just the way she ran into Sandor, and he says arse, which Sandor likes to say, and he disses Harry:

In a prior passage, she defends Sandor's "jousting" and now there are similar references:

She also thinks about Sweetrobin's long hair just before she thinks of kissing Sandor (who wears his hair long):

Alayne is supposed to be from Gulltown, and she "remembers" Sandor's kiss, something that will come up again ("You will see, in A STORM OF SWORDS and later volumes, that Sansa remembers the Hound kissing her..."):

Tom Sevenstrings sings a song about stealing a sweet kiss from a fair maid in Gulltown before Sandor reappears in the narrative in book 3:

Dunk thinks of the same song while digging a grave on a slope, and later Sandor digs a grave on a slope:

And there are other Dunk and Sandor parallels...

Damn, you're good.

I didn't realize there were so many parallels.

[Booknerd2]

I love the Jane Eyre comparison, and there are many parallels. If Sandor is Mr. Rochester, then Littlefinger is St. John Rivers. I am very tempted to dust off my copy of Jane Eyre and have a re-read with that thought in mind! There is so much to compare!

With regards to Bookie's great Littlefinger essay...

Yeah, lots of Swan Songs seem to happen at tourneys…also, big look-at-me-I'm-important gatherings/parties that are thrown. Like Joff's wedding.

-Did not pick up on the lemon cake tipping some off, as another reason to some, that it might be Sansa Stark. Oh, that is ALL Sandor and Stranger need to hear. You like someone, you know everything about them, or find out. I would die laughing if his custom ego cake tips someone off.

Stranger to Sandor: Ok, on the count of three, you grab your girl, I'll grab the cake….

I kid.

Her mother would KNOW that. And others too maybe. She had them a lot at KL.

-I do see some similarities about compartmentalizing yourself with Sansa and this chapter and Arya in Mercy.

-And totally. We get a view of her mind frame, but not her heart….but I think we know who it flutters for.

[Booknerd2]

Hilarious!

http://25.media.tumblr.com/8689ccc18485491d1834d039ddb102bb/tumblr_mlmczeTaxC1qkyfq7o1_500.jpg

Now, I can't draw to save myself, but if anyone tackles Stranger walking out with the massive lemon cake in tow, I'll

die of laughter.

[Le Cygne]

I love the Jane Eyre comparison, and there are many parallels. If Sandor is Mr. Rochester, then Littlefinger is St. John Rivers. I am very tempted to dust off my copy of Jane Eyre and have a re-read with that thought in mind! There is so much to compare!

There's a boatload, I'll get all the quotes together:

* he has a moody black horse (named for the Arabian Nights executioner)

* she's down with his "sarcasm" and "harshness"

* she's turned on by his "ferocity"

* she "caresses" his face to find "manly tears"

* he gives her his cloak twice

* she compares other men to him

* "he laid a heavy hand on my shoulder"

* he calls her little

* he calls her a bird

* she hears his voice

* he has an "elder brother" who inherited his father's estate

* he wants to go to a "quiet island" with her to escape his troubles

* he limps at one point

* he's burned by fire

* he's 20 years older (vs. 15)

* there's a similar rooftop passage

* there's a similar charged passage :leer:

I'm probably forgetting something...

[Le Cygne]

Bookie, your last bit...

Sansa is not so much "peeping" as he used to tell her. With peeping meaning bird sounds but also, to peep and look as a big running bit with those two also, and still is. However, with the other meaning, she is no longer peeping, she is wisecracking.

Like him. Sarcastic and biting. She SOUNDS like him.

I like. It's interesting the timing of when she runs headlong into LothSandor, and he says something sarcastic and biting about Harry.

She's upset, and he makes her feel better.

She uses thoughts of Sandor for the same thing, whenever she's remembering something bad some guy did to her, she remembers what he said or did instead (or dreams of him naked in bed :leer:) and feels better.

So she got her fix, and then she carried on.

She also does what I call it the Dorothy and the Scarecrow technique. "I missed you most of all." She saves Sandor for last in her thoughts, setting him apart from the others.

[Booknerd2]

I got more. And more after this but I still have to word it and fix it.

Alayne ramblings – more Sansa and Sandor

I was thinking how there has always been the theme of a game or games with their story. And to continue with all the examples and comments people gave of the looking, looks, seeing, seeking, etc. I thought of them as Hide and Seek. They are both hiding in different ways. They had both been looking for a connection with someone that was a good one maybe their whole life, and he was seeking her out, I truly believe he will be once his time on the QI runs out. And we literally see her assessing and seeking men, and the whole series she has been seeking love and someone who can love her, for her.

What I love is if the point is almost being driven home, and one more example needed to be given, this did it with Harry.

This was great….one more….now two handsome douches for Sansa to realize…tip it over the edge. These pretty boys are not Sandor, and the inside, which really counts, is not there with these two either.

Third times a charm, honey. Joff and Harry. Done. Over. Lose the blondes. We know how Gendry reacted to the blonde chatting up Arya. It didn’t go down too well. When he basically tells Edric to shut up and cut your hair if it bothers you so much, but stop whining….I still get the chuckles.

If Sansa is that quick, witted, snarky, which was clearly demonstrated in the chapter….forget it. Done deal. He always admired the woman she would become. He always took notice, that she was still a girl and not there, and seemed to muse on the possibilities, the potential, the magnitude of what she would or could become. Ok, in an awkward stupid in his admiration way, but he had issues then. I mean, all of his conversations with her sound like a lovesick dolt drunk dialing the woman he’s in love with, and it goes oh, so wrong at times. Cause man, she sounded like him at times with the wise cracks. Loved it! In the vein of him… She was just as snappy as Sandor was with her in book 2 and 3…sans his cursing.

Sandor has always given her the advice to look, face things, and see things as they really are. She is doing it now.

Well, my boy…good job! Taught her well, she is doing it. She is seeing crap. She did not see to the core through what many people or situations truly were. Only she did see some of what you really were She got the gist of the good, which was hard to do. Good. Now she is applying it…what she learned from you and what you’d been telling her.

Sandor Clegane…tutor. Who knew?

[LongRider]

I got nothin' Le Cygne and Bookie, but you two have made me feel a bit better.

Now, back to boring stuff.

I called it!!! In RivWeb 5;

Riverlands Web 5 we talked about where and what are the food and resources available for the winter and I said

"That fact makes me think that anyone who supplies for the smallfolk needs could have them on their side. Which can also mean they are ripe for possible exploitation."

Seems like LF was waayy ahead of me. If anyone is interested, we discussed possible food resources in the thread and it starts here; http://asoiaf.wester...b-v5/?p=6594456

try this link : http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/122458-the-riverlands-web-v5/?p=6594456

Bronze Yohn was noted by LF to be selling his grain to merchants who are clamoring to buy. If they are clamoring, they have markets and the markets need food or now and later. So by LF putting a big slow down or stop on the food supply could possibly hurt the RL now because the merchants can't sell the RL Lords what they want and need.

sorry about more spoiler tags, me and my laptop are fighting. Any way, can you imagine RR with Emmon Frey? When the RR small folk find out the Vale, a place that should be their allies is hording food from them, it could get very ugly very fast. LF is stupid to go ahead with his market manipulation plan.

[LongRider]

please ignore this error

[Booknerd2]

I got nothin' Le Cygne and Bookie, but you two have made me feel a bit better.

Now, back to boring stuff.

I called it!!! In RivWeb 5;

Riverlands Web 5 we talked about where and what are the food and resources available for the winter and I said

"That fact makes me think that anyone who supplies for the smallfolk needs could have them on their side. Which can also mean they are ripe for possible exploitation."

Seems like LF was waayy ahead of me. If anyone is interested, we discussed possible food resources in the thread and it starts here; http://asoiaf.wester...b-v5/?p=6594456

Bronze Yohn was noted by LF to be selling his grain to merchants who are clamoring to buy. If they are clamoring, they have markets and the markets need food or now and later. So by LF putting a big slow down or stop on the food supply could possibly hurt the RL now because the merchants can't sell the RL Lords what they want and need.

sorry about more spoiler tags, me and my laptop are fighting. Any way, can you imagine RR with Emmon Frey? When the RR small folk find out the Vale, a place that should be their allies is hording food from them, it could get very ugly very fast. LF is stupid to go ahead with his market manipulation plan.

:bowdown:

Awesome.

Hard for me to word because it is pretty clear that despite who has temporary success, both men are going down in time anyway.

And...

LF could win out, or it could sway that way initially, because Emmon is fighting a many-pronged battle, and is not a match for him in the brains and strategy department, and maybe other ones too. RR was not his, people want it back, he has the BWB on his ass, and a target being a Frey. Daffy Duck has so many problems….but in general, any LF victories after this are temporary. As we all said, that vibe from that chapter is: live it up, it is all downhill from here.

On the other hand...

But Emmon's strength would be in how much LF messes up and calling attention to himself, doing what he's doing with the food supply, holding Sansa and flaunting her and it's found out, etc...

Many are due for a downfall, and have big issues on many fronts they need to be worried about. They all do, so they are all swimming up to their necks in it. If anyone trumps anyone, it will be other factors, other people involved, or something else. They all are swamped with detractors, people who'd love to see their downfall, or people that don't care to help because they've been wronged or taken advantage of.

Food is big. Starvation is a very real matter, even today. It is long, arduous, and painful…and obviously leads to death. So it could be Riverlanders Pro-Emmon, at least until they get food or Edmure back, and if they collectively find out LF is behind it. Especially since this idiot is flaunting 67 courses and a custom cake, and as said, the lemons are imported….empty stomachs and anger count for a lot.

Possibly if he held food, he would think of a genius way to save face. Like say it is temporary and make bs excuses or something. I don't know. But once people get wind of his massive feast at the tourney. It is a slap in the face to the small folk period in holding such excess in dire times. Sometimes people get more fired up over petty slights even then important ones at times. Like some would get more incensed about the tourney details that the food issues. Some people are like that.

I have to word this better. Too much to go into and it can go so many ways for both dudes.

[LongRider]

:bowdown:

Awesome.

Hard for me to word because it is pretty clear that despite who has temporary success, both men are going down in time anyway.

And...

LF could win out, or it could sway that way initially, because Emmon is fighting a many-pronged battle, and is not a match for him in the brains and strategy department, and maybe other ones too. RR was not his, people want it back, he has the BWB on his ass, and a target being a Frey. Daffy Duck has so many problems….but in general, any LF victories after this are temporary. As we all said, that vibe from that chapter is: live it up, it is all downhill from here.

On the other hand...

But Emmon's strength would be in how much LF messes up and calling attention to himself, doing what he's doing with the food supply, holding Sansa and flaunting her and it's found out, etc...

Many are due for a downfall, and have big issues on many fronts they need to be worried about. They all do, so they are all swimming up to their necks in it. If anyone trumps anyone, it will be other factors, other people involved, or something else. They all are swamped with detractors, people who'd love to see their downfall, or people that don't care to help because they've been wronged or taken advantage of.

Food is big. Starvation is a very real matter, even today. It is long, arduous, and painful…and obviously leads to death. So it could be Riverlanders Pro-Emmon, at least until they get food or Edmure back, and if they collectively find out LF is behind it. Especially since this idiot is flaunting 67 courses and a custom cake, and as said, the lemons are imported….empty stomachs and anger count for a lot.

Possibly if he held food, he would think of a genius way to save face. Like say it is temporary and make bs excuses or something. I don't know. But once people get wind of his massive feast at the tourney. It is a slap in the face to the small folk period in holding such excess in dire times. Sometimes people get more fired up over petty slights even then important ones at times. Like some would get more incensed about the tourney details that the food issues. Some people are like that.

I have to word this better. Too much to go into and it can go so many ways for both dudes.

Thanks Bookie!

Starvation is a real thing and the Vale has ties to RR....the Tully family lived there; Lysa and the Blackfish. LF's lavish banquet and his obscene lemmoncake giving the rest of Westeros the finger will be noticed in the lands where food is scarce. Such a sloppy plan. In the RivWeb 5 thread it was noted that the BWB told the Hound they were going to use his gold to buy food from 'across the Mander' which is in the Reach. But the Reach can't supply what the Vale won't. LF will receive more than the silver he wants with this bad idea.

[LongRider]

nevermind

[Booknerd2]

Thanks Bookie!

Starvation is a real thing and the Vale has ties to RR....the Tully family lived there; Lysa and the Blackfish. LF's lavish banquet and his obscene lemmoncake giving the rest of Westeros the finger will be noticed in the lands where food is scarce. Such a sloppy plan. In the RivWeb 5 thread it was noted that the BWB told the Hound they were going to use his gold to buy food from 'across the Mander' which is in the Reach. But the Reach can't supply what the Vale won't. LF will receive more than the silver he wants with this bad idea.

I hope to hell somebody is drunk or whatever, and has the sense enough to take a running dive into the single, Westeros world record, massive lemon cake like the dude did in the November Rain video…lol!

http://i.guim.co.uk/static/w-620/h--/q-95/sys-images/Music/Pix/pictures/2008/05/01/cake.jpg

[Wizz-The-Smith]

Quotesies:

Sansa watches Sandor joust in the tourney where Sandor saved Loras, and Sandor is the champion (defeating Baratheon, Lannister, and Tyrell):

In the second of two tourneys Sansa has watched, she thinks this about Sandor, who helps her save Dontos ("The girl speaks truly"):

When it looked like Sandor was about to fall from his horse, Sansa gasped, she didn't want it to happen (also, Jaime ended up falling on his head), but she wants Harry to fall on his head:

Sansa thinking of "another kiss" - Sandor's kiss - and finding someone to wear her favor at the third tourney:

Sandor was the only one in the Kingsguard to keep her safe, and she wants a Kingsguard for Sweetrobin to keep him safe:

She thinks Lothor is Sandor in a previous chapter, and she runs into him just the way she ran into Sandor, and he says arse, which Sandor likes to say, and he disses Harry:

In a prior passage, she defends Sandor's "jousting" and now there are similar references:

She also thinks about Sweetrobin's long hair just before she thinks of kissing Sandor (who wears his hair long):

Alayne is supposed to be from Gulltown, and she "remembers" Sandor's kiss, something that will come up again ("You will see, in A STORM OF SWORDS and later volumes, that Sansa remembers the Hound kissing her..."):

Tom Sevenstrings sings a song about stealing a sweet kiss from a fair maid in Gulltown before Sandor reappears in the narrative in book 3:

Dunk thinks of the same song while digging a grave on a slope, and later Sandor digs a grave on a slope:

And there are other Dunk and Sandor parallels...

Awesome work Le Cygne ! This is great, thank you, I was on the look out [ maybe too much + in the wrong places ] :dunno: and was surprised to see this many. Anyway, my brief take on things for now....

Right, first off, I've annoyingly been busy last couple of days and missed a lot of the chat. I have now caught up, and there are some great posts and opinions, TBH I feel a bit like bookie has mentioned, time to marinate thoughts and re-read will lead to a clearer picture me thinks. Anyway, enough of my excuses and on with my thoughts. :P

Straight away I noticed Sansa/Alayne's gained confidence and sass, and there has been some nice discussion on this with the webbers . I like the chat on the various descriptions of the men present, and how she seems to have learnt from previous experiences and memories [ not least Sandor.] and is using this when sizing up these gentlemen. I will say, throughout, I saw no sign of Sandor references at first, and was very pleased to read Le Cygne's parallel's post.

I agree with the notion that LF is pushing his luck, especially with the auburn tones of her hair being highlighted by the fire, the food situation [ nice one Longie ], seemingly being too busy to meet the Waynwood's at the gate etc.. But, I can't help but feel trepidation in the ease with which he agreed to this Tourney and the Winged Knights idea. With a who's who of the Vale present, I see LF using this to his advantage, or at least attempting to. Whatever info he received from Oswell may change/enhance any plans, and is interesting. I hope not, but he's too clever to turn down an opportunity if one arises.

Shadrich, The Mad Mouse, the witty wee man... Now I was excited and nervous at the same time when he appeared and spoke to Sansa, and it was all so creepily cryptic, a bag of Dragons indeed. Whilst Sansa seemed blissfully unaware of any hint of trouble, we as readers were nervous. This following Sansa being very careful in relation to her being born In Gulltown around certain company as well. But that for me, all but confirmed he knows exactly who she is, great shout whoever called that in our chats. To finish on Shadrich, his funny quip to Sansa about '' I've never seen a mouse with wings before '' , I've seen some posts on this suggesting the imagery of a bat. I have nothing else on this other than the imagery we have about Sansa and Harrenhal previously, but thought this interesting nonetheless.

Some other quick thoughts without some homework, the Lemoncake was funny [ bookie, loved the link earlier, v. funny ] , the thoughts of Eddard, Rob + Tyrion in the chapter were interesting, the dance scene was great to read, which leads me, finally, to the fact it was nice to read a chapter with no horrors, and what seemed an upturn in Sansa' fortunes and personality. But as we all know, on reflection, that probably means impending doom. :unsure:

To conclude, bookie, Longie, Le Cygne + MMM, I have enjoyed reading your various takes on this chapter very much, thanks. I must admit, I feel I've only grazed the surface myself, I look forward to any more opinions, and will re-read the chapter and threads in the hope to contribute a bit more in future posts. :)

[LongRider]

Hilarious!

http://25.media.tumblr.com/8689ccc18485491d1834d039ddb102bb/tumblr_mlmczeTaxC1qkyfq7o1_500.jpg

Now, I can't draw to save myself, but if anyone tackles Stranger walking out with the massive lemon cake in tow, I'll

die of laughter.

I forgot mention! Great find this is hilarious!

[LongRider]

Awesome work Le Cygne ! This is great, thank you, I was on the look out [ maybe too much + in the wrong places ] :dunno: and was surprised to see this many. Anyway, my brief take on things for now....

Right, first off, I've annoyingly been busy last couple of days and missed a lot of the chat. I have now caught up, and there are some great posts and opinions, TBH I feel a bit like bookie has mentioned, time to marinate thoughts and re-read will lead to a clearer picture me thinks. Anyway, enough of my excuses and on with my thoughts. :P

Straight away I noticed Sansa/Alayne's gained confidence and sass, and there has been some nice discussion on this with the webbers . I like the chat on the various descriptions of the men present, and how she seems to have learnt from previous experiences and memories [ not least Sandor.] and is using this when sizing up these gentlemen. I will say, throughout, I saw no sign of Sandor references at first, and was very pleased to read Le Cygne's parallel's post.

I agree with the notion that LF is pushing his luck, especially with the auburn tones of her hair being highlighted by the fire, the food situation [ nice one Longie ], seemingly being too busy to meet the Waynwood's at the gate etc.. But, I can't help but feel trepidation in the ease with which he agreed to this Tourney and the Winged Knights idea. With a who's who of the Vale present, I see LF using this to his advantage, or at least attempting to. Whatever info he received from Oswell may change/enhance any plans, and is interesting. I hope not, but he's too clever to turn down an opportunity if one arises.

Shadrich, The Mad Mouse, the witty wee man... Now I was excited and nervous at the same time when he appeared and spoke to Sansa, and it was all so creepily cryptic, a bag of Dragons indeed. Whilst Sansa seemed blissfully unaware of any hint of trouble, we as readers were nervous. This following Sansa being very careful in relation to her being born In Gulltown around certain company as well. But that for me, all but confirmed he knows exactly who she is, great shout whoever called that in our chats. To finish on Shadrich, his funny quip to Sansa about '' I've never seen a mouse with wings before '' , I've seen some posts on this suggesting the imagery of a bat. I have nothing else on this other than the imagery we have about Sansa and Harrenhal previously, but thought this interesting nonetheless.

Some other quick thoughts without some homework, the Lemoncake was funny [ bookie, loved the link earlier, v. funny ] , the thoughts of Eddard, Rob + Tyrion in the chapter were interesting, the dance scene was great to read, which leads me, finally, to the fact it was nice to read a chapter with no horrors, and what seemed an upturn in Sansa' fortunes and personality. But as we all know, on reflection, that probably means impending doom. :unsure:

To conclude, bookie, Longie, Le Cygne + MMM, I have enjoyed reading your various takes on this chapter very much, thanks. I must admit, I feel I've only grazed the surface myself, I look forward to any more opinions, and will re-read the chapter and threads in the hope to contribute a bit more in future posts. :)

Looking forward to your thoughts. :)

[Booknerd2]

Awesome work Le Cygne ! This is great, thank you, I was on the look out [ maybe too much + in the wrong places ] :dunno: and was surprised to see this many. Anyway, my brief take on things for now....

Right, first off, I've annoyingly been busy last couple of days and missed a lot of the chat. I have now caught up, and there are some great posts and opinions, TBH I feel a bit like bookie has mentioned, time to marinate thoughts and re-read will lead to a clearer picture me thinks. Anyway, enough of my excuses and on with my thoughts. :P

Straight away I noticed Sansa/Alayne's gained confidence and sass, and there has been some nice discussion on this with the webbers . I like the chat on the various descriptions of the men present, and how she seems to have learnt from previous experiences and memories [ not least Sandor.] and is using this when sizing up these gentlemen. I will say, throughout, I saw no sign of Sandor references at first, and was very pleased to read Le Cygne's parallel's post.

I agree with the notion that LF is pushing his luck, especially with the auburn tones of her hair being highlighted by the fire, the food situation [ nice one Longie ], seemingly being too busy to meet the Waynwood's at the gate etc.. But, I can't help but feel trepidation in the ease with which he agreed to this Tourney and the Winged Knights idea. With a who's who of the Vale present, I see LF using this to his advantage, or at least attempting to. Whatever info he received from Oswell may change/enhance any plans, and is interesting. I hope not, but he's too clever to turn down an opportunity if one arises.

Shadrich, The Mad Mouse, the witty wee man... Now I was excited and nervous at the same time when he appeared and spoke to Sansa, and it was all so creepily cryptic, a bag of Dragons indeed. Whilst Sansa seemed blissfully unaware of any hint of trouble, we as readers were nervous. This following Sansa being very careful in relation to her being born In Gulltown around certain company as well. But that for me, all but confirmed he knows exactly who she is, great shout whoever called that in our chats. To finish on Shadrich, his funny quip to Sansa about '' I've never seen a mouse with wings before '' , I've seen some posts on this suggesting the imagery of a bat. I have nothing else on this other than the imagery we have about Sansa and Harrenhal previously, but thought this interesting nonetheless.

Some other quick thoughts without some homework, the Lemoncake was funny [ bookie, loved the link earlier, v. funny ] , the thoughts of Eddard, Rob + Tyrion in the chapter were interesting, the dance scene was great to read, which leads me, finally, to the fact it was nice to read a chapter with no horrors, and what seemed an upturn in Sansa' fortunes and personality. But as we all know, on reflection, that probably means impending doom. :unsure:

To conclude, bookie, Longie, Le Cygne + MMM, I have enjoyed reading your various takes on this chapter very much, thanks. I must admit, I feel I've only grazed the surface myself, I look forward to any more opinions, and will re-read the chapter and threads in the hope to contribute a bit more in future posts. :)

Hey!

I know…the busies stink.

Great post. And yeah, I didn't pick up on Sandor references and thankfully Le Cygne did that post. I couldn't believe how much I missed and what harkened back to earlier people and stuff.

Check out my post before you with a lemon cake guns n roses reference…silly.

I am thinking about LF too…again. More than I'd like to. I was wondering about this…but you're right. The ease with which he agreed to this tourney is pause for alarm.

Is this where he is fallible for Cat and the Tully baggage issues he apparently still has? He mentioned her way beyond ad nauseum again in this chapter. Can’t resist lording it up and sticking it to the people who ruined his chances ( in his mind) of marriage with Cat. Now I believe and want to credit Sansa and that I totally feel her capable of pulling something to outmaneuver him, but I also love the idea that he strikes himself a major blow, and it is his own fault.

I like that he has screwed and destroyed so many people that his own lingering issue does himself in.

[Booknerd2]

To add...

If the tourney is her idea and he went along with it and it blows everything for him, so be it. Gradual…all the better. What he pulls on others, happens to him. I can only pray this happens.

If LF thinks it is a good idea, or the Sansa is his downfall frame of thought is true, is this the way? Only that most of us thought it would be something different? He does it for her, thinking not really through what it would cost him, and boom.

I try to coach myself and remind myself that he is still fallible, still human. Can make a mistake. I forget that a lot.

If the history of his feeling and being the inferior to Tullys and great lords and all those issues there allowed him to misjudge or overreach this one…that would be great.

[Wizz-The-Smith]

Awesome, thanks! Hmm, I think I will have to split "places of interests" and "where people are located" plus maybe make a line layer with people's movement patterns.

Glad you guys liked my map drabble! I will continue work when time allows.

No problem, I'd be glad to contribute to your ''map drabble'', :P again, great idea, and potentially very useful. Places of interest + individuals locations are a good idea, there's a lot going on in the RL's.

On first glance, from Fairmarket + Oldstones in the north of the RL's, sweeping the western border with the Westerlands around RR, down to Pinkmaiden [ Piper ], Acorn Hall [ Lady Smallwood ] and on to Stoney Sept. High Heart is also nearby, they have a lot of their contacts on that western side. And we can perhaps surmise that some of the other houses mentioned in their travelogue of the RL's were nearby, some closer inspection needed. Anyway, the predicted rescue attempt of Edmure + Jeyne [ hidden pass at the Golden Tooth ?] would be greatly enhanced by perhaps support from local houses, or at the very least, a place of refuge if needed on the foray back to RR/the RL's.

I will have a think on some other players and their movements in the hope of helping a little. :)

BTW, your question on the BF's whereabouts. As you mentioned, the Vale is definitely an option, but my thoughts are that he will look to rescue Edmure + Jeyne. He is Warden of the southern marches, sworn to this position by Robb, and I feel he will look to uphold his duty to the Direwolf + RL's, as shown by his defiance in flying the Stark banner above RR.

Add to this the knowledge that the BWB are everywhere in the area, and I feel there would've been contact with BF, either them finding him, or him finding them. There was a delay in the taking of RR, and in this time the BF escaped, they let two loyal RR men join the watch [ perhaps with info ] and after all this Jaime mused that Edmure seemed way too happy for a man in his position.

Edmure had previously been left with Tom 'o' Sevens, he seemed disturbed by this as we know, but we also know Tom may have been armed with some BWB schemes, who knows what they spoke of ? Whether Tom or not, there are other spies present for info to have gotten to Edmure [ prostitutes ]. Then the delayed taking of RR - BF escapes - and Edmure is too happy ?

I think there was info passed, and BF knew that he had support/a place to go after his escape, maybe even a bigger plan, who knows ? There was plenty of opportunity for scheming. Anyhow, I realise the Vale is as good an option as any, but I have a suspicion that he is still in the RL's, and we may see him early in TWOW, I hope so. :)