Jon/Arya/Tyrion love triangle becomes the Gendry/Arya/(possibly)Aegon?

[Annara Snow]

Dp

[lojzelote]

Who is going to be left Jon is not related to. That is the reason it seems everyone is clinging to Val. Auntie Dany and his sister-cousins, yikes.

Melisandre. ROFL

[HosteenOsteen]

I feel that in ASOIAF as we have it the only significant love relationships will be between people who have at least met by the end of ADWD.

[AryaNymeriaVisenya]

Val, the lonely-lovely-lethal. Just sayin'.

Jon Snow literally thinks, 'Val keeps stabbing people, Val is so hot!'

You could argue hes comparing Arya and Sansa in that bit too, he has no time for fairytale maidens.

[Amber W]

Exactly. I'm making this relationship a point of my next re-read. I too considered it platonic. Off the top of my head I can think of some very romantic thoughts if looked at again:

-Only her father ever called her pretty, and Jon sometimes.

-Jon wouldn't care who she killed she thinks, Jon would want her no matter what

-They finish each others sentences to the point they both have near word exact thoughts about the other. In their misery, things would be much better if they were together.

- Needle represents Jon Snow primarily and she is not giving that up for anyone, nor would she betray him even to her father she thinks. Pyschologically that is something of an interesting transfer of affections for a young girl.'Needle was Jon Snow's smile' and that nearly makes her cry.

-The comparisons Jon makes between Arya and Ygritte, not just personality, he compares their bodies too. She stands their naked and asks him if he would sleep with his sister and its hard to wonder if in some way, he's not trying to! Or his mother, boy has issues.

-He kept comparing the flirty Alys Karstark to his sister!

-His last thoughts before being stabbed the fourth time is what he said to Arya the last time he saw her.

Jon and Arya clearly love each other more than anyone else in the world. I don't think anyone ever disputed that. Its just the manner of love.

Who is going to be left Jon is not related to. That is the reason it seems everyone is clinging to Val. Auntie Dany and his sister-cousins, yikes.

Wow, that's a lot more than I could remember, but you're right, it's all there. And even though GRRM might have changed his mind about a lot of things in that outline, it seems ridiculous to have all of this going on if he'd decided to fundamentally change their relationship. I don't like it one bit though - their bond was one of my favourite things in the entire series, and I would hate for it all to lead up to a romance.

Good idea, I'm going to do the same! I can't believe I left my novels back home when I returned to university :bang:

[AryaNymeriaVisenya]

That is only their thoughts as well. There is the Queen imagery around Arya too. Nymeria is called a warrior queen or a witch queen of which Arya could become both. 'You will marry a king'. The whole conversation about the Queens sigil being in Joffreys Arms. To which Arya replies that the woman matters too. Jon says that women and bastards are get different halves of the rights of trueborn sons. The bastards get the swords and the girls get the sigil but they are denied both. He then gets Needle for Arya, to make her equal to her brothers. This suggests that Jon is in need of the coat of Arms, which he can get by marriage.

The Tv show bigs up the Arya-Visenya parallel as warrior queen and sister who conquerered with her brother. And they had that Pig face discussion from Marge which was a variant on Arya Horseface. Now Marge is queen and her tormentors will cringe. They echo the Needle scene with Oathkeeper and that is definitely something romantic. Why compare a sibling bonding bit to two potential lovers?

I also thought it was interesting that Maegor only wanted the blood of the dragon to know the secrets of the red keep. Varys says they are known only to ghosts and spiders. He is of course the spider and perhaps a Blackfyre. Arya ran all over the basements of the red keep, she was the ghost of harrenhall later. She is not dragonblooded but she could pass her blood to the next dragon. Then there is her relationship with the bones of Balerion.

[HosteenOsteen]

Thinking about it, I can see Jon/Sansa a bit more than I first thought, esp since Sansa has always thought of Jon as no more than her half-brother. But I have to still go with Jon-Shireen as that would unite all the possible royal families of Westeros, the Starks )in the North), the Baratheons, and the Targaryens. It would be like Jon's arguable historical model, Henry Tudor, marrying Elizabeth of York.

I understand why the shippers want Jon/Arya, and the 1993 letter is an intriguing clue to the lingering aspects of their sibling bond, but I just don't see it, in the ASOIAF we have, as anything more than that. If I'm wrong, though Jon/Arya would be very romantic.

[AryaNymeriaVisenya]

Thinking about it, I can see Jon/Sansa a bit more than I first thought, esp since Sansa has always thought of Jon as no more than her half-brother. But I have to still go with Jon-Shireen as that would unite all the possible royal families of Westeros, the Starks )in the North), the Baratheons, and the Targaryens. It would be like Jon's arguable historical model, Henry Tudor, marrying Elizabeth of York.

I understand why the shippers want Jon/Arya, and the 1993 letter is an intriguing clue to the lingering aspects of their sibling bond, but I just don't see it, in the ASOIAF we have, as anything more than that. If I'm wrong, thug,h Jon/Arya would be very romantic.

Yes and added to his sense of alienation from his family by picking him out as different. There is the bit above where he's thinking about Val. She's tried to escape the tower 3 times, stabbing someone in the neck who nearly died and Jon is turned on by that. He compared it to a princess in a tower who waits for the Knight to rescue her. You could make the comparison to Arya and Sansa, Arya escapes the Red Keep, killing on her way to do so. Sansa makes no move to flee until Littlefinger arranges it through Ser Dontos. Sansa is just not the type of girl he likes, he wants someone wild.

And the Elizabeth of York angle is flawed. You could argue she has already done that when she married Tyrion. Because the Lannisters are the Lancastrians, the Starks are the Yorkists.

[Annara Snow]

Thinking about it, I can see Jon/Sansa a bit more than I first thought, esp since Sansa has always thought of Jon as no more than her half-brother.

You're really not making a good case for it with this...

[Han Snow]

Yes and added to his sense of alienation from his family by picking him out as different. There is the bit above where he's thinking about Val. She's tried to escape the tower 3 times, stabbing someone in the neck who nearly died and Jon is turned on by that. He compared it to a princess in a tower who waits for the Knight to rescue her. You could make the comparison to Arya and Sansa, Arya escapes the Red Keep, killing on her way to do so. Sansa makes no move to flee until Littlefinger arranges it through Ser Dontos. Sansa is just not the type of girl he likes, he wants someone wild.

And the Elizabeth of York angle is flawed. You could argue she has already done that when she married Tyrion. Because the Lannisters are the Lancastrians, the Starks are the Yorkists.

Indeed.

[lady jellybean]

Its not that jon likes wild women, he likes strong women who dont sit around and gossip or whine. He wants an equal partner, not an empty headed doll.

[Lady Blizzardborn]

I was talking about dropping storylines. You're trying to misinterpret my words and talk about something else. Murder mysteries =/= set up storylines for POV characters. Arianne has a storyline that's clearly shaping up, one that's about Aegon and Dorne's potential support for him/participation in the upcoming Dance. But, according to you, GRRM is just fooling us with those two setup chapters where she's travelling to meet him, and the other setup from AFFC/ADWD - no, Dorne is just going to support Aegon without question, Arianne will have one unimportant talk with Aegon and then go to... do whatever, or nothing, and what we thought was her storyline is actually going to be Sansa's, for some reason!

Excuse me? This entire conversation started because you didn't like a theory I have about the way things are going. YOU accused me of suggesting that GRRM will be dropping storylines as you see them. I only pointed out that I have said nothing of the kind and that my theory doesn't require the dropping of anything.

You said:

I don't know how people can ignore the neon signs that Aegon and Arianne are going to be the next political marriage.

I responded:

When GRRM puts a neon sign in, 99% of the time it's a sure indication that what's on the sign isn't going to happen. The bigger the sign, the brighter the flash, the farther from what will actually occur. That would be how people can ignore said sign.

You said:

Really? You're saying that GRRM, in 99% of cases, sets up a big storyline involving a POV character, and then abruptly drops it in an anticlimactic manner, only to he could laugh at his readers: "Ha ha, got you! Psych!" Tell me just one example. Not 99%, just one example.

I responded:

That's not what I said at all. I didn't say anything about dropping storylines. I said he makes things look one way and then shows us that they're actually another.

Here's an example:

flashing neon sign--the Lannisters killed Jon Arryn because he knew about the twincest.

reality--Lysa killed her husband (with Petyr's urging) so that she and LF could be together.

Yet somehow this translates to me being the one misinterpreting posts???

Do you know why not having Aegon and Arianne get married wouldn't be dropping a storyline? Because Aegon and Arianne getting married is not a storyline. Nor is it considered a forgone conclusion by the fandom in general. Sure some of the fandom thinks it will happen. But another portion of the fandom thinks it won't. At this point no one knows what will happen, which means all options are open.

If one believes that Sansa has the North, the Riverlands and the Vale, it is not a further strech to think that fAegon already has Dorne and so does not have to marry Arianne. This of course has no logic behind. One only needs to look at Borros Baratheon to see how this idea falls apart.

If one bothered to read my posts explaining why Sansa doesn't have to actually have any of those regions, one might see the logic. One might also take into consideration that Borros Baratheon's best parallel in this situation is LF--he's overconfident, he has a marriageable female under his control (for the moment), as Lord Protector of the Vale he has an army at his disposal that has managed to stay out of the was. Borros laughed, as LF will laugh. And Borros lost, as LF will lose.

[AryaNymeriaVisenya]

Its not that jon likes wild women, he likes strong women who dont sit around and gossip or whine. He wants an equal partner, not an empty headed doll.

His preferred sibling is the one considered 'wild' in book one by her septa, the queen and even her father who compared her to 'The Wild Wolf'

Ygritte, Wilding

Alys who he seemed to have some flirtation with got on a dying horse and rode to the Wall to find the brother of the man who killed her father to protect her from her uncle, that is pretty wild.

Val, Wilding

These women are active, the decide their own fates, they take initiative, they don't care about other people's opinions or standards. At least three of them are deadly and he seems to consider that a turn on. Lets compare them to Marge who is not empty headed, she doesn't compare to the nature of these women and she is considered practically perfect down south.

[HosteenOsteen]

@AryaNymeriaVisenya I agree that Starks/Lannisters are generally modeled on York/Lancaster, but the point I was making about henry VIIs marriage is that it united all possible claimants to the throne. If Jon was to marry Arya (or Sansa), the Baratheon line or claim would still not be reconciled to the main one, and thus unless Stannis and Shireen both die there would still be a Baratheon claimant. Of course there are also Aegon and Daenerys out there,e but a Jon/Arya marriage, with on as ing, presumes Aegon and Dany both die or (in Aegon's case) are delegitimated. They might not have much support, but it would be an unreconciled strand which did not occur with Henry VII--the only 'claimants' Pekrin Warbeck and Lambert SImnel, pretended to be the dead princes. Maybe this doesn't matter, or is beside the point, but Henry VII did manage to unite all possible claims with his marriage,

I still don't see Jon and Arya working out because they os clearly think of each other as brother and sister. I don't really see Jon/Sansa either but in a psychological sense I can see the dynamic working, just don't see it in plot terms. And for Jon to be Lord of WInterfell or KITN redux and marry Arya would mean RIckon is somehow displaced. Like Shireen, Rickon seems to be there for a reason, unless one/both are sacrificed, which would be horrible.

I agree Jon/Arya would be very romantic but given all that is going on in ASOIAF not sure it will have that kind of ending. Who knows>

[AryaNymeriaVisenya]

I do NOT prefer Jon and Arya. Look at my profile pic...I'm going for them! I cannot deny however that in light of the recent letter which allows us to see that GRRM considered it the backbone of the series there is a lot that could support the idea he never dropped it. It has to be considered and looked at again beyond the 'ick' factor.

In the York/Lancaster dispute there were only 2 warring factions of one family, we have 8 families caught up in this saga. They were all Plantagenet. Just a Lancaster branch and a York branch. Henry VII was the only claimant left after the Wars of the Roses and his claim was very, very weak. He wasn't a bastard but from a bastard line, like Aegon if he is a Blackfyre. Elizabeth of York should have been Queen in her own right as her uncles were childless when they died and her brothers were dead. She had the claim, and he had the army. But then Elizabeth was a true born daughter, Myrcella (her strict equivalent) is a bastard. So that muddies things. Aegon would then perhaps marry Shireen but she is deformed. In all likelihood by the end of the next book there will be no Baratheon women left even in name only to heal that rupture. In this case, the Starks don't come into the equation as they have no claim to the Iron Throne at all. There may be no Baratheons to reconcile. Any marriage doesn't de-legitimise Dany's claim. Jon's existence as Rhaegar's son makes his stronger. Dany would be his heir.

[lojzelote]

Holly hell, the outline thing drives people insane. :blink:

If one already makes several rather large leaps such as that Jon gets out of the NW and is recognized as Rhaegar's son, it would make much more sense for him to marry Aunt Dany or perhaps a Hightower or a Redwyne or someone like that.

Anyway, if GRRM still plans for Arya/Jon, either he has to make time fly or he has think up some mental gymnastics for his characters. Even if one leaves out the brother-sister issue, there's the thing that Arya is 11-12, and even Viserys (of all people) appeared to think that Drogo was a bit perverse for finding a thirteen years old Dany attractive. (Then again, in Westeros many men seem to have pedophilic tendencies, eh.) After the five years time jump fell through, it would be far easier to retcon that storyline by Alys Karstark. (Not saying that will happen at all.)

[The Undead Martyr]

I don't think Aegon or Gendry are important enough to be a part of a major love triangle.

And the only way I can see Arya and Jon in a triangle, and find it acceptable, would be if Arya falls for him after discovering he is, biologically, her cousin, but because she is extremely traumatized and channels her sexual impulses towards the only man she can completely trust, while Jon sees her only as a sister, and enganges in a relantionship with someone else. If that ever happens, it would make a lot of sense to me, and I might even like it. As long as they never hook up.

This... sounds like exactly the sort of thing GRRM would do.

[AryaNymeriaVisenya]

Holly hell, the outline thing drives people insane. :blink:

If one already makes several rather large leaps such as that Jon gets out of the NW and is recognized as Rhaegar's son, it would make much more sense for him to marry Aunt Dany or perhaps a Hightower or a Redwyne or someone like that.

Anyway, if GRRM still plans for Arya/Jon, either he has to make time fly or he has think up some mental gymnastics for his characters. Even if one leaves out the brother-sister issue, there's the thing that Arya is 11-12, and even Viserys (of all people) appeared to think that Drogo was a bit perverse for finding a thirteen years old Dany attractive. (Then again, in Westeros many men seem to have pedophilic tendencies, eh.) After the five years time jump fell through, it would be far easier to retcon that storyline by Alys Karstark. (Not saying that will happen at all.)

I don't want Jon to leave the Watch, its against the intention of the vows but we'd be in denial if we thought that wasn't going to happen. Aunty Dany is quite overt incest in their society. Cousins are not.

We have no Redwyne or Hightower women introduced to marrry him to.

Well like you say, he did intend to make time fly, a 5 year gap. What happens now we have no idea but Jon has been trying to estrange himself from his sister. Trying to say that he only has brothers now, when he find out about Ramsey he tries to say he has no sister anymore. He wonders if she 'had ever been his sister' at one point while still believing he is Eddards son. We do not know how time will move in the coming or the conclusion. The problem with Dany was the sex, Marge married little Tommen and deferred it until he was older.

[Han Snow]

Holly hell, the outline thing drives people insane. :blink:

If one already makes several rather large leaps such as that Jon gets out of the NW and is recognized as Rhaegar's son, it would make much more sense for him to marry Aunt Dany or perhaps a Hightower or a Redwyne or someone like that.

Anyway, if GRRM still plans for Arya/Jon, either he has to make time fly or he has think up some mental gymnastics for his characters. Even if one leaves out the brother-sister issue, there's the thing that Arya is 11-12, and even Viserys (of all people) appeared to think that Drogo was a bit perverse for finding a thirteen years old Dany attractive. (Then again, in Westeros many men seem to have pedophilic tendencies, eh.) After the five years time jump fell through, it would be far easier to retcon that storyline by Alys Karstark. (Not saying that will happen at all.)

George is already trying to make Arya appear more feminine and mature (read Mercy) and he'll continue to do it even more so as the in books time passes by.

Aunty Dany is quite overt incest in their society. Cousins are not.

What are you talking about? Stark family tree alone has uncle/niece marriages if I'm not mistaken. It's basically the same. Anyways, I'd take Dany/Jon romance over Jon/Arya in a heartbeat. Though I'm now actually more of an opinion that George is actually going for the J/A.

[lojzelote]

I don't want Jon to leave the Watch, its against the intention of the vows but we'd be in denial if we thought that wasn't going to happen. Aunty Dany is quite overt incest in their society. Cousins are not.

We have no Redwyne or Hightower women introduced to marrry him to.

Well like you say, he did intend to make time fly, a 5 year gap. What happens now we have no idea but Jon has been trying to estrange himself from his sister. Trying to say that he only has brothers now, when he find out about Ramsey he tries to say he has no sister anymore. He wonders if she 'had ever been his sister' at one point while still believing he is Eddards son. We do not know how time will move in the coming or the conclusion. The problem with Dany was the sex, Marge married little Tommen and deferred it until he was older.

I'm not so sure it would be overt incest in their culture. Yes, historically uncle/niece and aunt/nephew marriages were less common than first cousin marriages, but they were not unheard of, the most notorious example being the Habsburgs, but they were not the only ones, and if one tried, I'm positive they would be able to dig up far more such cases.

Anyway, these are the Targs we are speaking of, for them these rules don't apply. I really don't think that Dany would have a problem with marrying someone because he's her biological nephew since she grew up believing she'll become Viserys' wife one day. As for Jon, he was raised like a Stark and we know that Sansa and Serena Stark married their half uncles, so it's not such a jump to think that Jon would agree to marry his hot young aunt he never met until their late teens. (Particularly if compared to Arya/Jon and Sansa/Jon, which get thrown around as possible matches by parts of fandom.)

It would be the easiest thing imaginable for the author to introduce some Hightower girls. Anyway, Baelor Breakwind was a suitor for Elia's hand and he's married, so it would be only logical if he had at least one daughter of marriagable age. Then there is Desmera Redwyne, Sam's almost-betrothed. It's said she's got lots of freckles, so perhaps she's a redhead. (It's fate, I tell you! :lol: )

No seriously, I'm not arguing this will happen, but it would make vastly more sense to me.

The problem with Arya/Jon is that from the political standpoint it's nonsensical, and from the personal one... well, she's really got be older, unless the author plans for Jon to become a deviant, who falls in love with his barely pubescent sister cousin. I don't say it's impossible the author will push the timeline, but so far he's had big trouble doing it.