[TWoW Spoilers] Alayne I

[James Arryn]

Am I the only one who didn't get the impression that Sansa is whoring herself? I understand that some fans are overprotective, but I didn't think she did anything questionable.

I didn't see it whoring herself, personally. Following LF's direction, yes. I could see how sex could become the natural extension of LF's expertise, but I don't think it crossed that line yet.

[Ser Pounce FTW]

Oh, please, don't bring the show into this...

I'd wager that the show is the reason this has been released. :P

[Han Snow]

So, was Uther Shett the contoversial part? :ack: :hat:

[Led]

But now we can't speculate that the tapestries were Targaryen/GreyKing/Cerseinaked

Well, there still might be secrets behind them... or hidden inside them and removed before given on to Royce ;)

[James Arryn]

You said you expected her to be kinder than Tyrion, and I wonder why.

Oh, I see. Well, because it's my perception that she used to be. Most people are. Tyrion's pretty self-centred. It's possible that sansa was always mostly kind towards pathetic figures too, or for her own survival in retrospect.

[juanml82]

Am I the only one who didn't get the impression that Sansa is whoring herself? I understand that some fans are overprotective, but I didn't think she did anything questionable.

Sansa is attempting to marry the heir presumptive of the Vale. Some people may call it "whoring herself". Other people will call it "show more initiative than her mother had when she was given to the heir and later the lord of the North".

I don't think the issue is whether she's trying to seduce HtH or not. Marriages are important political tools and, unlike most Westerosi ladies, she's having a say in hers. She could be intentionally botching it, for instance. Instead, she's set in making it happen. The important this is why is she doing so. Last we've seen her, she didn't want to marry, at all. Now, she has no doubts. Has she changed her mind? Is she doing it because she's afraid of LF? Did she see the holes in LF' supposed master plan and is planning to get herself in a good position when/if LF falls? Is she following LF's plan because she's considering turning on him? something else?

[clair de lune]

I think it is really interesting to see how Sansa handles Harry having bastards vs. how Catelyn handled Jon. When they talk about Harry's daughters and Saffron and Sansa telling him he'll have to send Saffron away, I immediately thought about comparing that to Catelyn. She's definitely learned from her mother here.

[HexMachina]

I think it is really interesting to see how Sansa handles Harry having bastards vs. how Catelyn handled Jon. When they talk about Harry's daughters and Saffron and Sansa telling him he'll have to send Saffron away, I immediately thought about comparing that to Catelyn. She's definitely learned from her mother here.

And good on her as well, tbh. Why should she be lumped with a child that isn't hers and she doesn't want?

[Colonel Green]

I think it is really interesting to see how Sansa handles Harry having bastards vs. how Catelyn handled Jon. When they talk about Harry's daughters and Saffron and Sansa telling him he'll have to send Saffron away, I immediately thought about comparing that to Catelyn. She's definitely learned from her mother here.

Well, first, Harry's bastards were conceived with mistresses he had before he even heard Alayne's name, whereas Jon was (supposedly) born out of an affair Ned had after getting married. But more importantly, Catelyn wasn't actually overly bothered (or thought she wasn't) by Jon's mere existence; her problem was that she didn't want him living in their house, in defiance of social custom. Sansa's not inviting little Alys and her soon-to-be-born half-sibling to live with them at the Eyrie either.

Unrelatedly, Sansa's mental state feels markedly different here compared to her last AFFC chapter in terms of her relation to her "Alayne" identity. Her arc throughout AFFC was one of becoming gradually more immersed, to the point where at the end of the chapter she barely thought the name Sansa. But here she's moving quite readily between the two and recalling without difficulty her various famil members, etc.

[sweetyft]

Am I completely alone in thinking this doesn't seem like it was written by George at all? Sooo many characters and random conversations. Sansa acting like she actually wants Harry, Myranda being hurt over Harry, a repetition of Sansa thinking of Robins lovely hair, Mya not knowing how to deal with Robin. Everything and everybody just seemed off to me.

I agree 100% and I don't understand why the subject of the surprising stylistic change hasn't been brought up more.

[James Arryn]

Sansa is attempting to marry the heir presumptive of the Vale. Some people may call it "whoring herself". Other people will call it "show more initiative than her mother had when she was given to the heir and later the lord of the North".

I don't think the issue is whether she's trying to seduce HtH or not. Marriages are important political tools and, unlike most Westerosi ladies, she's having a say in hers. She could be intentionally botching it, for instance. Instead, she's set in making it happen. The important this is why is she doing so. Last we've seen her, she didn't want to marry, at all. Now, she has no doubts. Has she changed her mind? Is she doing it because she's afraid of LF? Did she see the holes in LF' supposed master plan and is planning to get herself in a good position when/if LF falls? Is she following LF's plan because she's considering turning on him? something else?

To me, in terms of how I've always seen Sansa, i've used the term 'numb' and 'basic survival instincts' and 'trying hard to become furniture' as her natural reaction to extended trauma. I don't think she has been herself...or anyone, really, since everything went horribly haywire.

In that respect the most interesting line was the one one about feeling alive for the first time since Ned died. That fits my version. Hence we don't necessarily need too elaborate an explanation for why she'd now respond to a handsome prince and the idea of court intrigues. It's exactly the kind of thing she would have responded to when she was last 'alive'. Certainly she's a more jaded version, but I don't think we need to assume she's become Machievellian by osmosis when a continuation of the norm is available as an alternate explanation.

[MyLittleFinger]

Well, first, Harry's bastards were conceived with mistresses he had before he even heard Alayne's name, whereas Jon was (supposedly) born out of an affair Ned had after getting married. But more importantly, Catelyn wasn't actually overly bothered (or thought she wasn't) by Jon's mere existence; her problem was that she didn't want him living in their house, in defiance of social custom. Sansa's not inviting little Alys and her soon-to-be-born half-sister to live with them at the Eyrie either.

Mistresses? When was he married?

[shastada]

Am I the only one thinking that LF plans to off Harry and not Sweet Robin?

[sweetyft]

I

[NotSoSilentSister]

Oh, I see. Well, because it's my perception that she used to be. Most people are. Tyrion's pretty self-centred. It's possible that sansa was always mostly kind towards pathetic figures too, or for her own survival in retrospect.

Firstly, I don't share your perception that Sansa is only kind to the particularly pitiful (neither is Tyrion, for that matter). She also gets on well with Myra and Myranda for instance. And Tyrion got on pretty well with Bronn and Shae, before she betrayed him. Looks to me, like Tyrion and Sansa are kind to some people and unkind to others. Most people are.

But Tyrion and Sansa are also abuse survivors and heavily traumatized and it would be unreasonable to expect that to not have an effect on their behaviour. They're both getting increasingly impatient with naive and helpless characters (see Tyrion's impatience with Penny and Sansa's necessarily more subdued annoyance at Sweet Robin), maybe because they're seeing a part of themselves in them that they had to rather violenty discard in order to survive. I think that's a fairly plausible psychological reaction and not necessarily related to Littlefinger's influence.

Could you name one character in the series that meets a standard of kindness that would not earn a "fading flower" label from you?

[ctid1977]

I enjoyed it.

Shadrich is definitely on to her. I enjoyed his throwaway comment about the gold. Who were the other two knights who entered Littlefinger's service with him at the end of AFFC? Were they involved in this chapter at all?

[Led]

Last we've seen her, she didn't want to marry, at all. Now, she has no doubts. Has she changed her mind? Is she doing it because she's afraid of LF? Did she see the holes in LF' supposed master plan and is planning to get herself in a good position when/if LF falls? Is she following LF's plan because she's considering turning on him? something else?

I really don't think she is afraid of Littlefinger... He may be the only one she is 100% sure of she can depend on right now, but she does have power over him too.

I more get the feeling that she really wants to assist him and learn more about how he does stuff, at least for now. She seems happy for once, and she felt pride over how many knights came to see her and her "father", for example.

[Colonel Green]

Am I the only one thinking that LF plans to off Harry and not Sweet Robin?

Why would he do that?

[juanml82]

Am I the only one thinking that LF plans to off Harry and not Sweet Robin?

I'm thinking the same, the problem is that keeping SR drugged works against him. Then again, Sansa doesn't know for sure if SR was given sweetsleep. That scene with Corbray has to be there for something.

It may be entirely possible that LF plans to reenact Ser Hugh, which might have been his doing all along, in this tournament. Lyonel Corbray, who's supposedly a man of the Lords Declarant, kills Harry the Heir. LF keeps his hands clean, has a perfectly obvious alibi, the remaining Lords Declarant become suspect and LF denies Waynwood and Yohn Royce of a possible pretender who could risk LF's control of the Vale.

[Direwolf Blitzer]

I agree 100% and I don't understand why the subject of the surprising stylistic change hasn't been brought up more.

Despite being on record as saying nothing happened in this chapter, I'll defend George on this one.

I assume the tone is intended to convey to the reader that 1.) Sansa is becoming more and more Alayne, and 2.) she's reverting, in a small way, to earlier Sansa. She hasn't felt this alive, after all, "since her father... since Lord Eddard Stark died."

So you get this bubbly, sort of girlish thing going on. She's enamored of the knights and the feasts like she was way back in King's Landing, before it all went to hell. She's in love with Harry, then she hates Harry, then she's got a more Littlefinger-style perspective on Harry. But it's a far cry from building snow castles, either way.