[TWoW Spoilers] Alayne I

[NotSoSilentSister]

The variety of male power isn't that big. It's charisma, wealth, wits and martial prowess, basically. Women have access to all of that except for the last one.

And since it's a medieval setting you have to deal with gender roles.

Wealth, rarely to the same degree, historically due to legal discrimination. And using you charisma is much more risky for a woman, since it will get you easily branded as a whore. (Both Cersei and Litttlefinger use sex to manipulate, but Cersei risks much harsher punishment).

But I can see your general point, which is why it's so baffling (and frankly frustrating) that women are so often reduced to one mode of power in fiction. I trust Martin won't do that, though.

[John Doe]

True enough, but also, why is everyone bringing up only Cersei as example, or talking about LF pimping his employees, when we know that LF pimped himself, successfully, to Lysa?

Agreed.

[Nictarion]

Definitely the weakest sample chapter for me. Although I love Myranda Royce, she was great in this chapter. Good to finally get some Sansa material after so long though.

Also, a 12ft lemon cake? :lol:

[Good Guy Garlan]

His plan of hoarding food is really evil in my view and hope it backfires on him.

The weird part is that LF seems to think Yohn Royce is going to sell his own supplies and depend later on LF's, but c'mon, how dumb would that be?

[Colonel Green]

What era does a young Jon Arryn fit? It would be interesting to actually see the man on page in hedge knight story. Come to think of it, alot of old heads should have their day in those stories.

He's said to have been 20 years older than Hoster Tully, so probably born somewhere circa 220. He could definitely feature in stories set while Egg was on the throne (though it will be a long time, if ever, before we see those).

The weird part is that LF seems to think Yohn Royce is going to sell his own supplies and depend later on LF's, but c'mon, how dumb would that be?

I think (hope) that that line is just him flippantly trying to get the lords to go along with his hoarding plan and brushing off that Royce is selling when they want to do the same.

Because, c'mon, if the Vale lords customarily sell off some portion of their grain supply before winter has even started, they surely know how to make sure they don't run out themselves. Otherwise the whole place would have been ruined long ago.

[HexMachina]

Perhaps, it could also be; Tyrion's escape or Cersei's arrest. I think it may be too early in the timeline for Kevan and Pycelle's deaths to be discovered/announced.

Tyrion's escape is already known, since she mentions Cersei collecting dwarf heads and that her husband is still alive

[Le Cygne]

It's going to be the Hound. We all know how the hand's tourney went. I am positive that during the whole tourney her thoughts will revolve around what the hound would've done differently during each match. And how Harry the Douche would've rolled around in the dirt if he jousted against him. :P

He does like rule of three. At the second tourney, she remembered that Sandor was the champion of the first tourney:

He had been the champion at her father's tourney, Sansa remembered.

[juanml82]

Cersei is the prime example of using her body for power, and Cersei is a cautionary tale to Sansa of how spectacularly wrong using sex as a weapon can go. Cersei uses what is “between her legs” and Sansa seems to reject this. Sansa is growing into her sexuality, but she does not need to rely solely on her sexuality to achieve her goals. She has many other skills at her disposal, not just her physical attributes.

Well, to be fair, Cersei's issues with her lovers start after she dumps them. As long as she's using that "weapon", it works for her.

[Annara Snow]

Further clarification has been made; apparently the "controversy" Elio was referencing is that Sansa has apparently grown and is capable of thinking about sexuality/romance without thinking of Sandor Clegane.

LOL

. (I always thought a way bigger deal was made over the "kiss" than needed to be, personally.)

Because Sansa trying to manipulate/seduce a guy LF told her to in order to get to Winterfell, despite finding him to be a douche, is obviously the expression of her deepest romantic and sexual desires, as opposed to her feelings for Sandor?

You must also think that the Arya/Gendry ship sunk when the extent of Arya's desire to kill Raff was revealed.

[John Doe]

And using you charisma is much more risky for a woman, since it will get you easily branded as a whore. (Both Cersei and Litttlefinger use sex to manipulate, but Cersei risks much harsher punishment).

I don't think charisma has necessarily anything to do with sex. Dany would be my example for a women who draws much of her power from charisma in the series..

[Led]

The weird part is that LF seems to think Yohn Royce is going to sell his own supplies and depend later on LF's, but c'mon, how dumb would that be?

Lord Grafton certainly thinks so... Littlefinger simply comments that it would be good for them (him and his loyalists), since the LDs would be forced to turn to them to easily buy food (LF may even block harbors or whatever to make sure food can't come from the outside, if the LDs get into such a position).

[James Arryn]

What would she be supposed to do? Vow eternal love?

To whom? I am talking about her new need to poke at almost everyone; I specifically said Harry at least had it coming.

[NotSoSilentSister]

I don't think charisma has necessarily anything to do with sex. Dany would be my example for a women who draws much of her power from charisma in the series..

Who is also constantly called a whore. It's nice that you make the distinction, but any women worth her salt knows that her enemies won't.

[Boudica]

If you want to see Pride and Prejudice in ASOAIF, read Jamie/Brienne chapters. Classic romcom.

I cant remember such a feeling of Pride and Prejudice whilst reading their chapters, but it has been quite a while since I ve read it, and the byplay was interesting before Jamie lost his hand.

That is Beauty and the Beast in the wild!

Jaime has character growth into a more sympathetic man but that isn't exclusive to Darcy.

What defines this chapter as a comedy of manners in the Austen tradition is:

The rank of those involved, Jane was an aristocrat and wrote what she knew

The role of family, taken by Robert here.

The prominence of relationships between women

The domestic setting becoming more exciting by a grand local event, a feast is a ball.

The ediquette of the dance. Harry is forced to dance with her by Anya because it would be improper not to. Like Lizzy Bennett Sansa refuses if he is just going to ask her out of social duty. She later accepts.

The dance floor is where partners are seen together and how they match. You are standing up with a potential partner, hence why in Emma Knightley reminds himself they aren't actually related even of it feels like they are, it is not inappropriate.

The dance becomes either harmonious or a battle ground. Dances in Austen are very slow and go on for about 10 minutes so characters talk. It's on the dance floor Lizzy gages Darcys character, where they trade wit and veiled insult. It's the only time they are allowed to have their hands on one another and to get close enough for a sexual tension.

One thing this lacks of Pride and prejudice is the two way flaws. Sansa is presented well. In p&p Lizzy is as proud and prejudiced as Darcy. He insults her ego and she blames his class. We know Sansa used to have Harrys flaws to a less grotesque degree but with these similarities I wouldn't be surprised to see a different side to Harry develop. One Sansa likes a lot more.

With Harry's connection to kids and his likely good relationship with his I wonder if he won't be the one saving Robert from Littlefinger when Robert thinks he wants him dead. That would be quite the turnaround and could be a 'saving Lydia' moment if we carry on our comparisons

That is a very good summery of why this chapter or especially the feast and dancing at the end, feels so Austin like. And it might also reveal that it is very likely that Harry might not be as horrible as one would first assume, from the first impression.

[James Arryn]

Petyr was in Gulltown the year Robert was born right? I suppose a visit from Lysa isn't impossible. The way grrmgenetics work just made it a bit suspicious.

Yep, I used to think it was just an assumption of GRRM's own tropes...and I think I still read Lysa's comments to mean she had never given LF a child as she wanted to, if pressed, but I agree Grrmentics might point another way.

[NotSoSilentSister]

To whom? I am talking about her new need to poke at almost everyone; I specifically said Harry at least had it coming.

And I pointed out that she didn't poke fun at the stuttering guy. What was insufficient about that kindness?

[John Doe]

Who is also constantly called a whore. It's nice that you make the distinction, but any women worth her salt knows that her enemies won't.

Of course women tend to get sexualized in this setting, but she doesn't need to use sex to reach her goals, that's what I meant.

Some do it of course, like Arianne.

[Whitering]

I agree. I am torn between my happiness about an actual happy and cheerful Sansa, and the fact that I was expecting things to move a lot quicker in the Vale and more grim.

I agree the writing was very 'light' and girly.

Besides, she remembered Tyrion with kindness again.

I agree, and also, she is sarcastic and thoughtfully witty, very reminiscent of her father...well, you know which father I mean heh

Her exchange with Harry about how she can forgive something unforgiveably rude was great.

[Gertrude]

Btw, what's that obsession with Sweetrobin's hair?

...

Is it a setup for some Samson & Delilah parodic developement?

My immediate thought was the opposite - the long hair is sapping him of his strength. He will survive to be strong and shear his hair extremely short, hating to be reminded of anything he associates with his sickly childhood. Minus Sansa herself, I would hope, as she is the main factor in helping him grow out of it. Thus some irony - no woman will love his hair because he won't allow it grow long enough to matter. Wild speculation on my part, but it flashed through my head.

Isn't possible that the “controversy” might be the fact that Sansa is capable of being smart and cunning. I mean, it seems to me, that a certain part of the fandom was highly invested in the idea of Sansa being a naive fool for the rest of the series. Some people just can't get over GOT.

This is my thought as well. This chapter serves to showcase the lessons she has learned and assimilated into her already clever, kind and courteous core. She finally gets to be who she is. I think many of the detractors site her lack of agency as a reason to dislike her. This is showing Sansa taking initiative and not being a complete victim under the thumb of someone else. She has a ways to go, but this goes a long way towards debunking that line of attack.

[James Arryn]

And I pointed out that she didn't poke fun at the stuttering guy. What was insufficient about that kindness?

No, I meant that once her treatment towards him would have been the norm; now it's the exception. Tyrion is kind of a dick to everyone except figures of pity, and even that much is more of a dick than I expected Sansa to be. Of all LF's traits to absorb, his annoying barbs would be my very least favourite.