juanml82 Posted April 3, 2015 Share Posted April 3, 2015 But Harry only matters if Robert dies, and if Robert dies, killing Harry won't in any way enable Littlefinger to retain power. He's out of a job either way. With many people that would be true, but Robert's sickliness is well-known. Indeed, the whole "Harry the Heir" backstory makes it sound like quite a few people in the Vale have been expecting Robert to die for a good while, even if they don't know quite how sick he is. But HtH still remains a pretender to whom LF's rivals could rally around. And HtH himself might have second thoughts about SR's long term survival. As long as Lord Arryn lives - and worse, if he lives long enough to father a child - HtH is a hedge knight. Kill him and potential enemy is gone while the Lords Declarant will have no heir to rally around if they want to rebel. But then why go through the farce of the betrothal if that's the case? Unless...the betrothal and the tourney were a trap to get Harry to come in the first place. LF does remark that it was a dumb move from Yohn Royce to let Harry come. I guess Harry could've skipped the tourney, no biggie, but the tourney + betrothal, well, that was a guarantee he wouldn't have misses it That's part of the alibi. Why would LF have HtH killed when he's planning (and even better, if he succeeds) in marrying his daughter to him? Keep your enemies confused, so they never know what you'll do next (or something) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lors Posted April 3, 2015 Share Posted April 3, 2015 I agree 100% and I don't understand why the subject of the surprising stylistic change hasn't been brought up more. I didn't really notice any surprising "style change" at all. It still seems George written to me. I know it's not edited, but still is George to me Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
redrubies Posted April 3, 2015 Share Posted April 3, 2015 Just a prediction- (have NOT read all 35 pages of comments to see if anyone has said this) I enjoyed this new release but I'm having this BAD feeling that mayhaps Randa tumbles down with Harry and gets a bastard in her belly and it will be revealed as Alayne begins to form a friendship/courtship with Harry(Wow- he completely dissed her at their first meeting-that was SO friggin hypocritical of that bastard!) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
James Arryn Posted April 3, 2015 Share Posted April 3, 2015 I didn't really notice any surprising "style change" at all. It still seems George written to me. I know it's not edited, but still is George to meI shutter to think of the editor's task. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Good Guy Garlan Posted April 3, 2015 Share Posted April 3, 2015 But HtH still remains a pretender to whom LF's rivals could rally around. And HtH himself might have second thoughts about SR's long term survival. As long as Lord Arryn lives - and worse, if he lives long enough to father a child - HtH is a hedge knight.Kill him and potential enemy is gone while the Lords Declarant will have no heir to rally around if they want to rebel. That's part of the alibi. Why would LF have HtH killed when he's planning (and even better, if he succeeds) in marrying his daughter to him? Keep your enemies confused, so they never know what you'll do next (or something)Right, but Harry is only a threat if Sweetrobin dies Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
James Arryn Posted April 3, 2015 Share Posted April 3, 2015 Ha, fair enough. I think we don't know enough about Lemore and Edmure, but I'll have to give you Shireen, Davos and Sam.Cheers. :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Led Posted April 3, 2015 Share Posted April 3, 2015 Lyn must have racked up quite the debt to Littlefinger by now. I mean... a man that is known for being short on money and Littlefinger, the master of coin? Money and boys... Lyn does love his little boys. I didn't really notice any surprising "style change" at all. It still seems George written to me. I know it's not edited, but still is George to me Yeah, didn't notice anything like that either. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colonel Green Posted April 3, 2015 Share Posted April 3, 2015 Because if SR were to die LF loses all his power in the Vale. Harry is the threat to that power. He doesn't plan to stay in the Vale for long so he's not thinking long term beyond the winter. He's obviously preparing for winter thus the hoarding of food, but beyond that he has to know that if Harry and Sansa get married and SR gets killed then Harry has all the power and LF is on the outside looking in. SR is his better play, killing him makes no sense. So milk SR's power for the next few years and accumulate wealth/power during the long winter then make his move with Sansa back to Winterfell. Using her on Harry seems kind of pointless, he doesn't need the Vale he already has it. Again, the only threat there is that Robert dies. If Robert doesn't die, Harry is no threat at all, and if Robert does die, Harry being dead doesn't help in the slightest. But HtH still remains a pretender to whom LF's rivals could rally around. And HtH himself might have second thoughts about SR's long term survival. As long as Lord Arryn lives - and worse, if he lives long enough to father a child - HtH is a hedge knight. Kill him and potential enemy is gone while the Lords Declarant will have no heir to rally around if they want to rebel. Littlefinger has already basically defused the LD here. They're down to two of their original six members if/when Hunter gets offed. And nobody has shown any inclination to raise Harry up as some kind of alternative to Robert. My other objection to this is purely on a meta level, namely, that that makes this whole sequence of events purely circular, with Littlefinger and Sansa jumping through a bunch of hoops only to reveal that the whole point has been...the maintenance of the status quo. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lomiller Posted April 3, 2015 Share Posted April 3, 2015 It seems Sansa is actively allying herself with her families enemies, just like she did in the leaked original story plan. That seems like it should be plenty controversial. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FacelessMan666 Posted April 3, 2015 Share Posted April 3, 2015 One of my favourite Sansa chapters probably Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NotSoSilentSister Posted April 3, 2015 Share Posted April 3, 2015 His warming to her because she was clever was imo his best moment, and revealed the potential for a 3 dimensional character. Yeah, people are definitely making too much of that. "Look at that, a woman with some brains, who would have thought" - sounds rather patronising to me. You don't need to be a great supporter of equality to enjoy a bit of sass in the flirty banter stage. I'll be impressed when he asks her for political advice and actually acts on it, but until then... Well nothing contradicts that her ultimate motivation is to be LF's partner in crime...yet nothing confirms it. I think that her continued attachment to her family makes it more plausible that she will turn against Littlefinger, once she becomes aware of the role he played in the downfall of her House. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slowpoke Martin Posted April 3, 2015 Share Posted April 3, 2015 Why does this chapter feel so damn weird?? Compare the last Sansa chapter from Feast to this and it's like day and night. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colonel Green Posted April 3, 2015 Share Posted April 3, 2015 It seems Sansa is actively allying herself with her families enemies, just like she did in the leaked original story plan. That seems like it should be plenty controversial. She doesn't know Littlefinger is a particular enemy of her family -- and beyond that, her family doesn't exist anymore, either as a family or political unit, as far as she knows. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
James Arryn Posted April 3, 2015 Share Posted April 3, 2015 Yeah, people are definitely making too much of that. "Look at that, a woman with some brains, who would have thought" - sounds rather patronising to me. You don't need to be a great supporter of equality to enjoy a bit of sass in the flirty banter stage. I'll be impressed when he asks her for political advice and actually acts on it, but until then... I think that her continued attachment to her family makes it more plausible that she will turn against Littlefinger, once she becomes aware of the role he played in the downfall of her House.I don't think it was astonishing; just a sign that he might be more than a cut-out. It wasn't enough time to get much deeper. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NotSoSilentSister Posted April 3, 2015 Share Posted April 3, 2015 Right, but Harry is only a threat if Sweetrobin dies Harry might also be a temptation to make Sweetrobin die faster. The Lords Declarant might have less of a motivation to plot against Sweet Robin once they no longer have a ready substitute. That said, if Littlefinger were really mostly betting on Sweetrobin, I would expect him to be more careful about the Sweetsleep. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lomiller Posted April 3, 2015 Share Posted April 3, 2015 She doesn't know Littlefinger is a particular enemy of her family -- and beyond that, her family doesn't exist anymore, either as a family or political unit, as far as she knows. So it's not her fault, she's just being tricked into betraying her family. Again. I guess that does make it non-controversial. Carry on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lost Melnibonean Posted April 3, 2015 Share Posted April 3, 2015 So the plan is.... 1. Harry enters tournament where the prize is becoming a member of The Brotherhood of the Winged Knights for three years. 2. Lyn takes a dive to assure Harry is one of the victors. 3. Harry joins the BotWK where both LF and Sansa can bend him to their will. Of course... something else will probably happen to make it all go wrong. Other notes... I took from this that Lyn will probably end up killing Ossifer and Shett.... probably when Shett realizes Alayne can't be from Gulltown. Lyn must have racked up quite the debt to Littlefinger by now. I mean... a man that is known for being short on money and Littlefinger, the master of coin? Utter Shit? :)I like it. Nice catch! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NotSoSilentSister Posted April 3, 2015 Share Posted April 3, 2015 So it's not her fault, she's just being tricked into betraying her family. Again. I guess that does make it non-controversial. Carry on. She hasn't betrayed anyone yet. I think this time she'll catch on to it in time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Reckoner Posted April 3, 2015 Share Posted April 3, 2015 Does this chapter confirm that Dany's memories are of a house in Dorne? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
juanml82 Posted April 3, 2015 Share Posted April 3, 2015 Right, but Harry is only a threat if Sweetrobin dies That depends on the morals of Littlefinger's enemies, including Harry. He is a threat because the Lords of the Vale are seeing a frail brat as their Lord when a proper warrior is parading around with the Arryn sigil. Think of Daemon Blackfyre, who wasn't even in the sucession line. Harry is someone around whom anyone who is against Littlefinger can rally around. And Harry might himself be thinking about speeding SR's demise. Again, the only threat there is that Robert dies. If Robert doesn't die, Harry is no threat at all, and if Robert does die, Harry being dead doesn't help in the slightest. Littlefinger has already basically defused the LD here. They're down to two of their original six members if/when Hunter gets offed. And nobody has shown any inclination to raise Harry up as some kind of alternative to Robert. My other objection to this is purely on a meta level, namely, that that makes this whole sequence of events purely circular, with Littlefinger and Sansa jumping through a bunch of hoops only to reveal that the whole point has been...the maintenance of the status quo. The Bronze Yohn organized a tournament so Harry had an excuse to become a knight, and the chat in the vaults seems to indicate he is raising Harry in some capacity. Why would it be up to the Bronze Yohn whether Harry can attend to the tournament or not? Or to meet Alayne? But yes, narratively speaking, it means the whole HtH thing is nothing but a short misdirection, and maybe a learning opportunity for Sansa. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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