[BOOK AND SHOW SPOILERS] Has the show peaked?

[sonsastronk]

The show has only been better this season. Less time with filler, more time given to the most important characters (Jon, Dany, Tyrion, Sansa, Cersei.) Sansa had a traumatizing scene, but here on out I think she'll start her way to become the queen of Westeros. It'll be a fantastic journey to watch and this season is an awesome camera lense into the beginnings of that.

[yanmaodao]

Maybe. All shows have to peak sometime. But I hope there's bigger and better coming.

[Zyxw]

Tv shows don't really peak. Most of them have gone through up and down phases, Breaking Bad being one example.

Game of Thrones is going through a slow phase now because season 5 is mostly about setting up an epic climax.

Whether or not book purists think it has peaked usually comes down to whether or not they think it has deviated too much, which really has no bearing.

For the umpteenth time it isn't about deviation at all - it's about execution! Take Dorne for example - This write up at TOH articulates it well so I won't need to.

..Let's go to Dorne, the place where sense and plotlines go to die. Really, there was great anticipation before the season about Dorne getting a place in the sun (heh!) and the Sand Snakes and Prince Doran and everything, but seeing the final result, it is more than just a letdown. The letdown was, until now, with the stupid introduction of the Sand Snakes and the somehow less than anticipated fun of the Jaime/Bronn coupling. This episode, Jaime and Bronn masquerade as Dornish by taking on their clothes like this was some Errol Flynn adventure movie from 1937 and walk unmolested into the Water Gardens right up to Myrcella and Trystane, all in the space of about three minutes. No amount of singing by Jerome Flynn can make up for this bullshit. Not even Littlefinger would have dared to pull such a stunt.

But things get worse. In some villain's den, Ellaria, for no particular reason, swears in the Sand Snakes with the Martell words that none of them has any right to. Then they leave the den in the most suspicious manner possible, fully armed and swinging their weapons around like they're some first-time LARP players, and confront Jaime and Bronn who just, according to the Brienne school of diplomacy and subterfuge, directly confront Myrcella and knock out Trystane. Good job at avoiding a war and all, Ser Jaime. This really was the best plan ever devised to achieve just that. Bronn, of course, is now officially toast, having been cut by one of the Sand Snakes. Or does anyone think that the weapon wasn't poisoned?

The Sand Snake's plan, by the way, was just as stupid. What did they intend? Dragging a screaming Myrcella right out of the Water Gardens under Doran's very nose, with Trystane not knocked out, and somehow just making it out? The stupidity and sheer pointlessness of everything that is happening right now in Dorne is utterly breathtaking. My god, this is so bad it defies everything. Add to that the absurd fight choreography, in which three Sand Snakes don't manage to overcome one-and-a-half men for some reason despite having the element of surprise, the knowledge of the surroundings and the long range weapons, and you remain dumbfounded in your seat. What a waste of screen time.

With the exception of north scenes there are more and more occasions where they are failing in translating their stories/idea to screen. It has naught to do with deviations. I feel some part of it has to do with comparison with its past self and just plain tiredness. They aren't helped by the fact that they have also lost big characters/actors who had great screen presence who have not been replaced. I'm not sure why they feel that secondary characters need to be culled and in place new stories added for existing characters. That is the way of previous american shows while GOT can dictate a new way - one where it's all entertainment regardless of red herrings rather than just a single streamlined goody vs baddy sequence. while some members of the audience might only be able to follow a streamlined main characters only saga I doubt they are the majority.

[Darryk]

For the umpteenth time it isn't about deviation at all - it's about execution! Take Dorne for example - This write up at TOH articulates it well so I won't need to.

With the exception of north scenes there are more and more occasions where they are failing in translating their stories/idea to screen. It has naught to do with deviations. I feel some part of it has to do with comparison with its past self and just plain tiredness. They aren't helped by the fact that they have also lost big characters/actors who had great screen presence who have not been replaced. I'm not sure why they feel that secondary characters need to be culled and in place new stories added for existing characters. That is the way of previous american shows while GOT can dictate a new way - one where it's all entertainment regardless of red herrings rather than just a single streamlined goody vs baddy sequence. while some members of the audience might only be able to follow a streamlined main characters only saga I doubt they are the majority.

Everyone acknowledges that Dorne has been a mess (so far). It's plot lines like Winterfell, which have actually been quite strong on the show, that are getting criticism from many quarters simply because they deviate from the books.

[protar]

Everyone acknowledges that Dorne has been a mess (so far). It's plot lines like Winterfell, which have actually been quite strong on the show, that are getting criticism from many quarters simply because they deviate from the books.

Winterfell's plot has not been strong at all. Littlefinger's plan to get Sansa to Winterfell makes very little sense, Theon just sort of stumbles about - didn't get any lines until Episode 5 I believe - and that's not even getting into THAT scene.

[Darryk]

Winterfell's plot has not been strong at all. Littlefinger's plan to get Sansa to Winterfell makes very little sense, Theon just sort of stumbles about - didn't get any lines until Episode 5 I believe - and that's not even getting into THAT scene.

The Winterfell plot has been excellent. The Boltons have completely usurped Joffrey's place as the characters everyone loves to hate and the actors are nailing it. The servants in Winterfell rallying around the supposedly last remaining Stark is poignant. Substituting Brienne for Mance as the one trying to infiltrate Winterfell and rescue Jon's sister was a smart move. Alfie Allen is nailing the character's inner conflict between Theon and Reek, and THAT scene achieved exactly the purpose it was supposed to.

You're entitled to your opinions but they're not shared by the general audience.

[David Selig]

The Winterfell plot has been excellent.

LOL. Nothing in this plotline makes the slightest bit of sense.

[Darryk]

LOL. Nothing in this plotline makes the slightest bit of sense.

LOL. It makes sense, dunno why you're having such difficulty

[protar]

The Winterfell plot has been excellent. The Boltons have completely usurped Joffrey's place as the characters everyone loves to hate and the actors are nailing it. The servants in Winterfell rallying around the supposedly last remaining Stark is poignant. Substituting Brienne for Mance as the one trying to infiltrate Winterfell and rescue Jon's sister was a smart move. Alfie Allen is nailing the character's inner conflict between Theon and Reek, and THAT scene achieved exactly the purpose it was supposed to.

You're entitled to your opinions but they're not shared by the general audience.

If the general public can't see the innumerable plot holes that's their problem. There's certainly been some good acting, I'm not going to deny that. And if they really had to cut out Mance's infiltration of Winterfell Brienne is a good enough replacement. However honestly I don't think most of the audience is getting much enjoyment out of hating the Boltons (most seem to just consider their story gratuitous torture porn). And the plot objectively makes no sense. I mean let's look at it shall we?

Littlefinger parades Sansa about in broad daylight, basically committing treason openly. How has Cersei not found out about this? Does she not have spies? Or at the very least has no one - thinking to make a few gold dragons - taken the information back to her? Then there's the fact that Roose really has no reason to make himself complicit in LF's scheming. He's risking his entire position in the Lannister Axis of Evil. He gets to solidify his position somewhat, but is that really worth it going behind the Lannister's backs? Also how does LF not know about what a monster Ramsay is?

Then Cersei calls LF back to KL because she has "urgent need of him." First of all, Cersei thinks LF is still in the Vale, so the time it takes for him to get to KL should be way longer (like weeks or months) than Cersei would be expecting: She should be suspicious. Then it turns out that she doesn't have any urgent need of him - all important information in their conversation this week was bought up by LF. So that was clearly a contrivance to have Sansa be alone in WF.

Then there's the fact that if indeed Cersei's spies are as incompetent as they seem - Sansa doesn't actually need to be at WF for LF's plan to work. He could literally just keep Sansa safe in the Eyrie, and lie to Cersei about her being in WF with the Boltons, Cersei's response would be exactly the same. So why is he risking Sansa - the most valuable bargaining chip in Westeros? She could be flayed alive or killed in the fighting when Stannis gets there. Couldn't LF just wait until after the fighting and then offer Sansa to the victor? Solidifying the unsure position of whoever wins?

Why does Cersei take him on his word with this anyway? She goes on a rant far more suited to book Cersei than to our wise Queen Mother Carol.

[Daske]

Then Cersei calls LF back to KL because she has "urgent need of him." First of all, Cersei thinks LF is still in the Vale, so the time it takes for him to get to KL should be way longer (like weeks or months) than Cersei would be expecting: She should be suspicious. Then it turns out that she doesn't have any urgent need of him - all important information in their conversation this week was bought up by LF. So that was clearly a contrivance to have Sansa be alone in WF.

Yes it's useful to the plot moving, but it's not necessarily baseless. Remember this is Cersei 'kill him, oh wait' Lannister, so she may just be messing with him because she can. Just by exterting the power she is letting him know she is stil in charge. Don't get any ideas, I have my eye on you Mr Sneaky. Let's find out what happens when I say 'jump'. She doesn't trust him out and about on his own business that she doesn't really know about. Let's see if he has any ideas he wants to share. Oh he does. I still don't trust him, but ok. Cersei doesn't really have any allies left and to a certain extent is spitballing and seeing what might stick. It worked so far with the sparrows, not so sure with LF, but at the moment his offer must sound reasonable, and probably more than she had hoped for.

As for the spies, it's very possible Cersei has none left up North. Bedded-in spies normally involves very delicate support operations that would currently be in turmoil after the upheavals in the North. A random chancer after a reward has no raven, and probably doesn't even know how to get to King's Landing other than head south, and even if they did would probably be killed or frozen to death on the way. And it's clear at least most of the locals are still loyal to the Starks anyway. I think it's very likely that Cersei has huge blind spots in the realm at the moment.

Not sure what Wise Mother Carol means, but show Cersei has done plenty of ranting, admitedly usually when drunk. aren't we expecting her to start to become a little more unhinged by this point anyway?

[protar]

Yes it's useful to the plot moving, but it's not necessarily baseless. Remember this is Cersei 'kill him, oh wait' Lannister, so she may just be messing with him because she can. Just by exterting the power she is letting him know she is stil in charge. Don't get any ideas, I have my eye on you Mr Sneaky. Let's find out what happens when I say 'jump'. She doesn't trust him out and about on his own business that she doesn't really know about. Let's see if he has any ideas he wants to share. Oh he does. I still don't trust him, but ok. Cersei doesn't really have any allies left and to a certain extent is spitballing and seeing what might stick. It worked so far with the sparrows, not so sure with LF, but at the moment his offer must sound reasonable, and probably more than she had hoped for.

As for the spies, it's very possible Cersei has none left up North. Bedded-in spies normally involves very delicate support operations that would currently be in turmoil after the upheavals in the North. A random chancer after a reward has no raven, and probably doesn't even know how to get to King's Landing other than head south, and even if they did would probably be killed or frozen to death on the way. And it's clear at least most of the locals are still loyal to the Starks anyway. I think it's very likely that Cersei has huge blind spots in the realm at the moment.

Not sure what Wise Mother Carol means, but show Cersei has done plenty of ranting, admitedly usually when drunk. aren't we expecting her to start to become a little more unhinged by this point anyway?

Well we should be expecting that but D+D have seemingly decided not to show Cersei's descent into madness on the show.

If indeed Cersei has no spies left in the north, then again - LF doesn't actually need Sansa at WF. Cersei completely takes him at his word so he can pretty much make up any story he likes. It doesn't need to be true.

[WSmith84]

If the general public can't see the innumerable plot holes that's their problem. There's certainly been some good acting, I'm not going to deny that. And if they really had to cut out Mance's infiltration of Winterfell Brienne is a good enough replacement. However honestly I don't think most of the audience is getting much enjoyment out of hating the Boltons (most seem to just consider their story gratuitous torture porn). And the plot objectively makes no sense. I mean let's look at it shall we?

Littlefinger parades Sansa about in broad daylight, basically committing treason openly. How has Cersei not found out about this? Does she not have spies? Or at the very least has no one - thinking to make a few gold dragons - taken the information back to her? Then there's the fact that Roose really has no reason to make himself complicit in LF's scheming. He's risking his entire position in the Lannister Axis of Evil. He gets to solidify his position somewhat, but is that really worth it going behind the Lannister's backs? Also how does LF not know about what a monster Ramsay is?

Then Cersei calls LF back to KL because she has "urgent need of him." First of all, Cersei thinks LF is still in the Vale, so the time it takes for him to get to KL should be way longer (like weeks or months) than Cersei would be expecting: She should be suspicious. Then it turns out that she doesn't have any urgent need of him - all important information in their conversation this week was bought up by LF. So that was clearly a contrivance to have Sansa be alone in WF.

Then there's the fact that if indeed Cersei's spies are as incompetent as they seem - Sansa doesn't actually need to be at WF for LF's plan to work. He could literally just keep Sansa safe in the Eyrie, and lie to Cersei about her being in WF with the Boltons, Cersei's response would be exactly the same. So why is he risking Sansa - the most valuable bargaining chip in Westeros? She could be flayed alive or killed in the fighting when Stannis gets there. Couldn't LF just wait until after the fighting and then offer Sansa to the victor? Solidifying the unsure position of whoever wins?

Why does Cersei take him on his word with this anyway? She goes on a rant far more suited to book Cersei than to our wise Queen Mother Carol.

Thank you. Sansa being in WF is the biggest plot hole to me; there is not a single reason that she actually needed to be there for LF's plan to work. All sending her to WF does is put her in danger, both from the Boltons and the upcoming battle. Sansa would not only be safer in the Vale, but if something does happen to her (and indeed did) she'll remember that it was LF who arranged this match, possibly turning her against him. Thus, it is a huge risk for no gain.

Plus if Stannis wins and LF doesn't manage to convince the Vale to fight him, Stannis is not going to thank LF for marrying Sansa to Ramsey.

Not to mention that Cersei making LF Warden of the North would make him Lord Paramount of the Riverlands, Lord Protectorate of the Vale and Warden of the North all at once. Even Cersei should be wary about giving someone that much power.

Speaking of which, why the hell would the Northerners follow LF if he is named Warden of the North? Titles mean little and less to who follows you, especially when LF would be Warden of the North by Lannister decree. The Boltons at least have the virtue of being Northerners.

Maybe all of my criticisms are unjustified (except the Sansa one, I have no idea how they could hope to justify that travesty) and LF actually has some secret amazing plan that will wipe them all away. But I doubt it.

[Darryk]

Well we should be expecting that but D+D have seemingly decided not to show Cersei's descent into madness on the show.

If indeed Cersei has no spies left in the north, then again - LF doesn't actually need Sansa at WF. Cersei completely takes him at his word so he can pretty much make up any story he likes. It doesn't need to be true.

How do you know LF doesn' need Sansa at Winterfell. Perhaps once his full plan is revealed, we will know why it was necessary to have her there. We're only finding out little pieces of his plan as the series goes on, painting an incomplete picture at the moment. For example, at first we thought the extent of his plan was to marry Sansa to the Boltons. After his meeting with Cersei, we realize there's more to it than that. And we're still probably only at the tip of the iceberg.

[protar]

How do you know LF doesn' need Sansa at Winterfell. Perhaps once his full plan is revealed, we will know why it was necessary to have her there. We're only finding out little pieces of his plan as the series goes on, painting an incomplete picture at the moment. For example, at first we thought the extent of his plan was to marry Sansa to the Boltons. After his meeting with Cersei, we realize there's more to it than that. And we're still probably only at the tip of the iceberg.

If indeed LF has some brilliant plan at the end of this, then I'm willing to eat my words. But for LF to have a brilliant plan requires D+D to have a brilliant plan. And brilliant and D+D are not two concepts which go which go well together. They don't get the benefit of the doubt any more. I'm going to assume everything is exactly as stupid as it appears, and if I'm wrong it'll be a pleasant surprise.

[Daske]

There is no way that the current plan outlined by Littlefinger to either Sansa or Cersei in the show is his real end-game. Whether it's brilliant or not we shall see, but I doubt he will win the game of thrones, so probably not quite brilliant enough. It would also mean that George has no bigger plans for him, which is highly unlikely. Or if he dies next season/book then it doesn't matter anyway.

[WSmith84]

If indeed LF has some brilliant plan at the end of this, then I'm willing to eat my words. But for LF to have a brilliant plan requires D+D to have a brilliant plan. And brilliant and D+D are not two concepts which go which go well together. They don't get the benefit of the doubt any more. I'm going to assume everything is exactly as stupid as it appears, and if I'm wrong it'll be a pleasant surprise.

After the terrible character that was Talisa, I don't give them the benefit of the doubt anymore. I bought into the Talisa Honeypot thing after I heard about it because I couldn't believe that they could actually write a character that bad.

[protar]

There is no way that the current plan outlined by Littlefinger to either Sansa or Cersei in the show is his real end-game. Whether it's brilliant or not we shall see, but I doubt he will win the game of thrones, so probably not quite brilliant enough. It would also mean that George has no bigger plans for him, which is highly unlikely. Or if he dies next season/book then it doesn't matter anyway.

Why not? He may have a new, separate plan - once he's got the North, but that sounds like it so far as his plan for The North is supposed to go. Maybe it won't be, but either way it's not going to make any sense.

[SerDesmondHume]

The show peaked on Season 4 Episode 2. Everything from there was downhill. In my opinion that was the best episode in the series and while there were still great episodes after that the show had a moderate decline for the rest of season 4 and a sharp decline in season 5.

[Daske]

I did say end-game, so I was including any future plans. There are still seasons and books to go and it's very unlikely that we have just been told Littlefinger's final fate (unless he dies soon). As we know for him the game is a ladder, one rung at a time, but always upwards. The North is just another rung I'm sure. But we can't know for certain if it makes sense unless we know what the next rung is or indeed if he really means to step on that rung that is the North at all or just pretend to. Since it's very unlikely we have all the info of his wider plans I don't see how we can judge if one part if it makes any sense yet.

There is also the possibility that he has no concrete advance plan, just a good idea about how best to move pieces to his advantage by playing the odds. Littlefinger cannot have foreseen everything that has taken place in Westeros since we joined the story. He may be sowing the seeds of disorder by playing people off one another thereby continuing to create the chaos that gives him the opportunity to advance his goals (as we know is his modus operandi). He can continually change or adapt his plans depending on the specific lie of the land after he has reached the next rung. Maybe just creating the opportunity for some quick thinking and rapid adaptation while everyone is focused elsewhere is all he needs to stay ahead of the game. In which case not everything he does will make perfect sense as we follow his arc because he does not and cannot have it all worked out in advance.

Edit: Actually the more I think about it I could be talking about GRRM rather than LF.

[goomba]

the show needs the author to direct it like the last seasons, is all :)