Sansa - white in a gray world

[shadowbinding shoe]

The point was that instead of being angry and hating the queen (and Joff) she decided Arya and Nymeria should suffer her wrath for the death of Lady. She continued in that until they killed her father. As for Jeyne, she did think in passing about her once. That was it as far as I can remember. You have to admit the girl at that stage was extremely egocentric.

[Trackrunner]

There are different circumstances in which they lie for "love."

But Westerosi didn't say a lie for love is a lie for self-interest under certain circumstances. And it is that point to which I was responding.

Sansa lied not to save anyone, there were no lives at stake just her dream of being happy with her prince.

Keep in mind her exact words when presented to Robert were, "I don't remember." This sounds a lot more like trying not to get involved for the sake of keeping things peaceable than lying to keep her dream alive. If she had really wanted to ingratiate herself to Joffrey, wouldn't she have told Robert he was completely in the right and Mycah attacked him?

by the way Trackrunner I never think naivity is endearing no matter who has it, which is why I didn't feel much when Eddard died and as of yet think that Bran needs to grow up before he can make any changes to the series.

Well, that's a matter of preference. Personally, I wouldn't want to read a book where all the good guys are mistrustful, jaded, and unforgiving. I mean, sheesh, how depressing. It's nice to have a few characters who look for the best in other people and situations. Why fault Ned, Bran, and Sansa for at least trying to think positively of the world around them? I would fault the characters who betray their trust instead.

And yes she does base opinions on appearances as shown by her first love of Joffrey (only changed after to save her dream she runs to Cersei thus forcing Eddard to compromise his principles and get killed off), her initial fear and distrust of the Hound and Ilyn Payne and repulsion from Tyrion and her "rather humorous" refusal to kneel at her wedding.

Most of those are based solely on AGoT, and do not take character growth into consideration at all. For starters, Joffrey was not just handsome. He was, to all initial appearances as far as Sansa could tell, gallant and considerate. And yes, Sansa was frightened of the Hound and Ilyn Payne. They are frightening characters. The Hound is a very angry and vicious man. Sansa still felt compassion for him the night of the tourney. And her fear of Ilyn Payne does not seem to be based on his homeliness so much as his pitiless gaze. And the whole chopping off people's heads thing.

And as for Tyrion, does Sansa ever once think he must be a bad person because he's ugly? No. She thinks he's kind. She recognizes he's ugly, but the only thing that affects is her sexual attraction. She does not actually think less of him for his looks. Refusing to kneel at the wedding was a slight at the Lannisters in general and the marriage they forced on her. It was not meant to offend Tyrion. In retrospect, she realized that's how it came across, and felt sorry.

Is she generally a decent person, well yes when compared to Joffrey, Ramsey, Gregor, the list goes on. But she is so far removed from pure white it's not even funny that someone mistook her for it.

I don't think she's pure white either. I'm not sure anyone we've encountered in the series could claim that. I do think she's a lighter shade of grey than a lot of the POV characters, particularly in later books when her better qualities seem to shine through. Not so light a grey as Bran or Jon, but not nearly as dark as Arya, Catelyn, Jaime, Dany, etc. I'd put her somewhere around Brienne and Davos: trying to be a good person, though mistakes are made along the way.

[Foreverlad]

I think the most interesting thing about Sansa is how far she'll betray "The Song" for the sake of maintaining its existence.

[Elrick]

I think this is our main disagreement, though Hot Pie. While I do think it's admirable to aspire to those traits. Eddard and Brienne do that. But sometimes you have to choose between the right and the good with honor. That's where you can see a bit of grayness in those characters, IMO.

But with Sansa, when she was young and innocent: it was all for love, that purest (whitest) of motives. Now she's is the classic Damsel in Distress.

Do you see what I'm trying to say?

Heh, nice one. I guess it would depend if we asked Khalil Gibrain or St. Paul.

I was kinda hoping that Sandor Clegane would save her. I really think that Sansa had strong feelings for Sandor and it was shared I think. It's hard to say to be completely honest but for some reason I don't think Dany is going to like Tyrion very much due to him being a Lannister and also being a dwarf.

[Horza]

I was kinda hoping that Sandor Clegane would save her. I really think that Sansa had strong feelings for Sandor and it was shared I think. It's hard to say to be completely honest but for some reason I don't think Dany is going to like Tyrion very much due to him being a Lannister and also being a dwarf.

Unless he somehow wears a disguise methinks there's going to be lots and lots of scenes of him having to prove his loyalty at dragonpoint...

[Elrick]

Unless he somehow wears a disguise methinks there's going to be lots and lots of scenes of him having to prove his loyalty at dragonpoint...

Also he might be dead but I really hope not!

I am hoping that Sandor's point of view will come up because I happen to like him. He was someone that I felt could actually turn out to be a good guy that may not be the most honorable person but has a goodness in him all the same. I know some people think that they have Martin pinned pretty good but I think that he still might have some good things happen in the series instead of always bad things.

[Horza]

Also he might be dead but I really hope not!

I am hoping that Sandor's point of view will come up because I happen to like him. He was someone that I felt could actually turn out to be a good guy that may not be the most honorable person but has a goodness in him all the same. I know some people think that they have Martin pinned pretty good but I think that he still might have some good things happen in the series instead of always bad things.

Heh, for his own good I hope Sandor adapts to the monastic life and stays out of things, but how often do people make totally sensible, albeit boring decisions in ASOIAF?

[a_homeless_harpy]

The point was that instead of being angry and hating the queen (and Joff) she decided Arya and Nymeria should suffer her wrath for the death of Lady.

It was indeed the case but it didn't last, as you mentioned in the second part of your post. She came round to hating Cersei and Joff all right.

As for Jeyne, she did think in passing about her once. That was it as far as I can remember. You have to admit the girl at that stage was extremely egocentric.

At one point Sansa even wondered why she missed Jeyne so much, because when the girl was with her, she was only annoyed with her constant sobs.

Egocentric yes, she was, but not more than other people and definitely not as callously selfish as Littlefinger.

[Wisp]

I was kinda hoping that Sandor Clegane would save her. I really think that Sansa had strong feelings for Sandor and it was shared I think.

I agree. I think there's some unfinished business there between those two; there are feelings there that need to be explored and addressed. Because of the proximity of the Quiet Isle with the Eyrie, I like to think that fate is pushing them together again, sooner or later. Now that Sansa is shedding her naiveté little-by-little, she should be better equipped to handle him should they meet again. I have to say, I'm really keeping my fingers crossed that they meet up again. They have a chemistry together that keeps me intrigued.

[Dienekes]

I'm one of the few that don't want the two to meet (Sandor and Sansa). They have already shown each other a purpose Sandor helped show Sansa that life was not a song (which she is still learning) and Sansa tried to show Sandor that sometimes it can be (I think she failed here). For me that's it let them go their seperate ways of course I have the same opinion about Tyrion and Tysha and no one seems to agree with me there either.

[Trackrunner]

I love Tyrion, so I'm fervently hoping for a Tyrion/Tysha reunion. I want Tyrion to be happy, and Tysha is the only woman he's ever loved, so how could I wish otherwise? Not that I don't believe in moving on once a relationship is over, but Tyrion hasn't had a lot of luck with that. His relationship with Shae was a farce, and Sansa never really interested him except sexually. If Tysha is the only woman he wants, then I suppose that's the only woman I want for him.

LF/Tyrion, however, would rock my socks.

[shadowbinding shoe]

I hope they'll find their happy ending if that's at all possible but somehow I doubt they can be happy in a relationship together. They have this unlikely attraction at a traumatic time (at least for Sansa) that I doubt can be stable and successful if they met again and gave it a chance. These unlikely romance stories are unlikely for a reason.

[Jon Targaryen]

Sansa is definitely one of the good guys but the idea that she is a "white character" is absurd. She lied, dissembled if you prefer, about what happened between Joffrey and Arya, she was a total brat to Arya in Sansa's third chapter in AGOT, and, of course, she went to Cersei about the Stark family plans for leaving KL. She has done a lot of good things. She helped Jon with girls before AGOT, she saved Dontos, she prayed for everyone in her family, including Jon, and some others at the sept in ACOK, and she took charge when Cersei deserted the Queen's Ballroom. She is definitely one of the "good guys" but definitely not a "white character."

For that one must look to Brienne or perhaps Bran.

[Arwen]

The Reed kids are evil spawn of the Children of the forest.

Bran is pretty good but his taking over Hodor was evil.

WTF? Are you serious????

[the silent speaker]

I would agree with Jonny if Bran makes a habit of it, but for individual instances where he took over Hodor for the purpose of not dying I give him a mulligan. Taking over other people's minds is not a generally positive thing to do. It is in fact a violation I could easily see on par with rape.

[Kat]

I can't believe this thread got dredged up again.

Edited to add: Because it was started in response to a challenge I posted when I was the ASOIAF Survivor mod last year. Ah, memories.

[StarkWard]

Even if Sansa is pure and white and lovely as you say, SHE'S STILL PATHETIC.

And I actually thank Littlefinger for teaching her the ways of the world.

[Été]

Wow That's a hell of a threadbump.

I don't think Sansa's evil: she's always tried to be as honourable and perfect as circumstances allow. I like her better when she's showing some backbone.

[brashcandy]

Wow That's a hell of a threadbump.

I don't think Sansa's evil: she's always tried to be as honourable and perfect as circumstances allow. I like her better when she's showing some backbone.

Definitely. Sansa has gotten a bad rap for GOT but she's shown the most steady, realistic development of all the characters so far. It is really hard to critique how far she will advance because she is still so young, but all signs point to her becoming an honourable and caring lady, or Queen of the North, possibly even Queen of Westeros. I actually don't think she is a "white" character has the OP asserted, she has plenty shades of gray

[Suzette]

I read GRRM because I love the grey characters. The only purely good person that i've seen in the whole book is Sansa. I think it's quite an accomplishment that GRRM wrote the whole series to date with only one really white (white/black) character.

She's the wholesome damsel in distress and I hope that she is able to stop Littlefinger. Will Tyrion rescue his wife? Will Sansa be the queen of love and beauty at the end?

I mean what do you guys think?

Least we forget Sansa went behind her dad's back and saw Joff that one last time and got him KILLED. I dint think she is evil or that act was evil. I think all GRRM's characters are grey. Like life we all have a little good/bad. Some have more of one than the other. Same with the ASOIAF characters. Some have more of good/bad than others do.