The Holy Goat Posted February 25, 2015 Share Posted February 25, 2015 Robert was a leader it seems to me. A man men would gladly follow into hell if he asked it of them. He could charm and impress, fight and shout, and a large amount of soldiers would willingly die for him. Stannis is a commander. His focus is on strategy and tactics, on discipline and logistics and planning a campaign. So as a commander I consider Stannis to be the more reliable choice. That said, I do not consider Robert to be stupid or incompetent. He could command well enough to be sure, just not like Stannis, just as Stannis can't inspire the same loyalty as Robert could since he lacks that magnetic larger-than-life personality. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lee-Sensei Posted February 25, 2015 Share Posted February 25, 2015 Well, all the battles in the Vale and the Riverland feature Jon Arryn and Ned Stark as the brains. Robert and Cat both say so. and they should know. Not disparaging Summerhall, but Robert had a huge advantage in numbers against each individual force. Robert is a competent commander and a very charismatic leader. But not on the level of Stannis. Or Jon Arryn or Ned Stark for that matter. 1) No they don't. You've said this before and it's not in the books. 2) How many people did he have? Do we know? 3) Stannis is great. Nothing says that Jon and Ned were more than competent though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pod The Impaler Posted February 26, 2015 Share Posted February 26, 2015 Robert was a leader it seems to me. A man men would gladly follow into hell if he asked it of them. He could charm and impress, fight and shout, and a large amount of soldiers would willingly die for him. Stannis is a commander. His focus is on strategy and tactics, on discipline and logistics and planning a campaign. So as a commander I consider Stannis to be the more reliable choice. That said, I do not consider Robert to be stupid or incompetent. He could command well enough to be sure, just not like Stannis, just as Stannis can't inspire the same loyalty as Robert could since he lacks that magnetic larger-than-life personality. Stannis seems to alienate more people than make his allies, people who by all rights should normally be his allies. Robert makes allies out of people who should or have been his enemies. So Robert starts with that "plus" where Stannis starts with a "minus". However, in the longer term, if you notice, Stannis actually earns a lot of respect from those under his command. He suffers hardships with his men, he maintains discipline in the ranks by meting out the same justice to lords and commoners alike. The rank-and-file soldiers seem to consider him "tough but fair"; they won't love him as fanboys, but they know where they stand. It's Stannis' politics that tends to hold him back - most lords are driven by self-interest, and Stannis tries to never pander to that. Even when he does, it is with great resentment. Decrying them as fence-sitters does not exactly win you a lot of the fence-sitters' support. On the other hand, Robert wins a lot of supporters with some easy promises, but I doubt he keeps even half of them. Yet it is the promise of good times ahead that they follow, not the actual delivery. 3) Stannis is great. Nothing says that Jon and Ned were more than competent though. Don't know if you've noticed, but Ned was the only commander who was never defeated in battle. Better commander than Robert, if you go by winning %. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Avalatis Posted February 26, 2015 Share Posted February 26, 2015 Stannis is a thinker, where Robert is more spontaneous. There is one thing about war; nothing ever goes to plan. Stannis during Black water showed he was too rigid to deal with the changing events. With that said I think they were fairly equal battle commanders. Having a good plan and strategy is important, and being able to react to changing events in a battle is equally as important. The two working together would have been fairly effective. I imagine Jon and Ned were the thinkers for a lot of the campaign strategies. Robert was able to make those strategies into victories. I believe Robert has the advantage with a campaign due to his charisma and Stannis' anti-charisma. Robert was a truly populous figure that the commoners loved, that his soldiers loved, that legends are written about. Stannis didn't just lack charisma he had a way of turning people that should swear loyalty to him away. So Robert over the course of the war he would be able to replenish his numbers with beat foes joining him or from other lords being inspired and joining him. Stannis would have the opposite effect. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seaworth'sShipmate Posted February 26, 2015 Share Posted February 26, 2015 I think Stannis is better. He is more a cold tactician. Robert is a talented leader who can inspire his men, but I feel he can be impulsive and rash. Where would he be without Ned tempering his battle plans in his rebellion? I consider Stannis sort of like Randyll Tarly, if perhaps not less talented. Stannis has endurance/ tenacity in spades. He held out on Storm's End when many would have surrendered. If he had surrendered it would have been a major win for the Targaryens. As much of a jerk as Stannis is, even his haters have to agree that he isn't as nasty/mean as Tarly is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jasta11 Posted February 26, 2015 Share Posted February 26, 2015 In terms of personality, it seems Stannis has similarities with Napoléon: authoritarian, not very good with people, arrogant, entitled. But Napoléon still won all those battles, not only because he was himself highly skilled, but had a general staff that was also pretty competent. Stannis's entourage might not be top notch, but he has won the loyalty of people such as Davos and Mel, as well as the grudging respect of Jon Snow. Like Napoléon, he also seems to inspire above average loyalty to his troops; how many times did you hear Lannister soldiers shout Tywin, Tywin, TYWIN? And the narration in ADWD specifically points out his men trust him a lot. So I'm not really sure Stannis's dour personality hurts him that much on the military front, albeit of course diplomatically it creates... complications, just like with Napoléon. Robert is more of a larger than life frontline commander who inspires loyalty one crushed skull at a time, but we also see no signs that he wasn't a competent commander. Dividing your enemy to then defeat him peacemeal one battle at a time is pretty advanced strategy, especially coming from someone people like to think of as a dumb, drunk brute. The thing is, we don't really know if he or Ned/Hoster/Jon Arryn commanded in the battles where they were present, so it's harder to judge than with Stannis who is more explicitely credited for his military successes. A battle between the two would be interesting. I believe Stannis would try to trap and kill/capture Robert, to deliver a crushing morale blow. But if he fails, Robert could carry his momentum and drive Stannis from the field. Or just have more troops by virtue of his charisma. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lee-Sensei Posted February 26, 2015 Share Posted February 26, 2015 Stannis seems to alienate more people than make his allies, people who by all rights should normally be his allies. Robert makes allies out of people who should or have been his enemies. So Robert starts with that "plus" where Stannis starts with a "minus". However, in the longer term, if you notice, Stannis actually earns a lot of respect from those under his command. He suffers hardships with his men, he maintains discipline in the ranks by meting out the same justice to lords and commoners alike. The rank-and-file soldiers seem to consider him "tough but fair"; they won't love him as fanboys, but they know where they stand. It's Stannis' politics that tends to hold him back - most lords are driven by self-interest, and Stannis tries to never pander to that. Even when he does, it is with great resentment. Decrying them as fence-sitters does not exactly win you a lot of the fence-sitters' support. On the other hand, Robert wins a lot of supporters with some easy promises, but I doubt he keeps even half of them. Yet it is the promise of good times ahead that they follow, not the actual delivery. Don't know if you've noticed, but Ned was the only commander who was never defeated in battle. Better commander than Robert, if you go by winning %. He also never held a solo command. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Lannister Posted February 26, 2015 Share Posted February 26, 2015 He also never held a solo command. Well, he lifted the siege of Storm's End if that counts. Mace Tyrell surrendered as soon as he saw Ned's banners. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lee-Sensei Posted February 26, 2015 Share Posted February 26, 2015 Well, he lifted the siege of Storm's End if that counts. Mace Tyrell surrendered as soon as he saw Ned's banners. He did, but there was no battle. Ned could be one of the greatest for all we know. I'm just saying there's no evidence that he was behind all the strategiesand tactics of the Rebellion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jasta11 Posted February 26, 2015 Share Posted February 26, 2015 Well, he lifted the siege of Storm's End if that counts. Mace Tyrell surrendered as soon as he saw Ned's banners. Well that was more because Tyrell was just looking for an excuse to dip his banners. As far as he was concerned the war was over, he just waiting for Ned to show up with an army in order not to lose face. But yes, Ned is probably very competent as well and was never defeated. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Lannister Posted February 26, 2015 Share Posted February 26, 2015 Well that was more because Tyrell was just looking for an excuse to dip his banners. As far as he was concerned the war was over, he just waiting for Ned to show up with an army in order not to lose face. But yes, Ned is probably very competent as well and was never defeated. Well I've never been defeated either. It doesn't mean much. Now that it's brought up can anyone name a single battle where Ned was in command? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
James Arryn Posted February 26, 2015 Share Posted February 26, 2015 Well I've never been defeated either. It doesn't mean much. Now that it's brought up can anyone name a single battle where Ned was in command?Battle of the Bells. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seaworth'sShipmate Posted February 26, 2015 Share Posted February 26, 2015 Good thing Ned was in command at that Battle... Robert was somewhat.. indisposed :cool4: Seriously though, Jon Connington should have known where to find Robert. Where else would he be hiding? :laugh: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
James Arryn Posted February 26, 2015 Share Posted February 26, 2015 To be honest Ned...and by extension Arryn...looks best indirectly, by virtue of what Jon (Snow) and Robb say he taught them, and what he says he learned from Arryn. We can also assume he was the principle military tutor for Robert. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seaworth'sShipmate Posted February 26, 2015 Share Posted February 26, 2015 ^ You mean Rodrick Cassel don't you? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
James Arryn Posted February 26, 2015 Share Posted February 26, 2015 ^ You mean Rodrick Cassel don't you?Not at all. He taught them how to handle a sword. ned taught them how to handle men/an army, as they both directly and specifically quote often. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Laughing Storm Reborn Posted February 26, 2015 Share Posted February 26, 2015 I´m not going as far as to say Robert is clearly superior as a commander to Ned or Jon, but inferior?? no way... there´s nothing in the books that gives me that feeling, not Cat´s understanding of the rebellion nor the excessive praise Robert gives everybody, deserved praise yes, but it doesn´t mean he´s saying they were the real brains behind him...As Commanders Robert, Stannis, Ned, Jon, Tywin, Tarly are all top tier... so between Robert and Stannis it depends on the situation and what the battle requires (my opinion)... of course as a warrior and a leader, when Robert is in the scene, he´s the top dog everytime Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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