James Arryn Posted February 24, 2015 Share Posted February 24, 2015 The battle of the bells began as a proper battle only after ned´s army arrived... it´s not called a battle if one commander is hidding wounded with his troops resting and the other is circling the city with a numerous and fresh army... it was a siege with a finding mission (we don´t call it the battle of storm´s end), a proper battle requires both armies to be in battle mode and when that happened Robert (still wounded) himself went after Jon Con (famous warrior with notable feats) and almost killed himIt wasn't a siege, but I agree it wasn't really a battle either. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Laughing Storm Reborn Posted February 24, 2015 Share Posted February 24, 2015 It wasn't a siege, but I agree it wasn't really a battle either. before it was a battle (ned´s arrival) the closest we can call it is a siege with an assault afterwards, i believe jon con had the majority of the army around the city in the first place (to access the situation) and then he assaulted it... But we agree that it wasn´t a proper battle nor a proper siege Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
James Arryn Posted February 24, 2015 Share Posted February 24, 2015 before it was a battle (ned´s arrival) the closest we can call it is a siege with an assault afterwards, i believe jon con had the majority of the army around the city in the first place (to access the situation) and then he assaulted it...But we agree that it wasn´t a proper battle nor a proper siegeI don't think there was any resistance, and certainly no siege lines that I can recall. Sacking/occupying a city is not a siege; Tywin doesn't besiege KL. A siege is a specific kind of operation. I will now retire to the Pedants Corner, which technically speaking is more of an alcove. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Laughing Storm Reborn Posted February 24, 2015 Share Posted February 24, 2015 I don't think there was any resistance, and certainly no siege lines that I can recall. Sacking/occupying a city is not a siege; Tywin doesn't besiege KL. A siege is a specific kind of operation. I will now retire to the Pedants Corner, which technically speaking is more of an alcove. It depends, in my country an army stance prior to occupation of a city can be called a siege (if they stay the suficient time preparing) but i won´t stress my head on the issue because i can´t even remember jon con´s full account on the Bells... point being, we agree it was neither a proper battle or siege Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bronn Urgandy Posted February 24, 2015 Share Posted February 24, 2015 Robert appears to be a better campaign manager than Stannis, but Stannis might take the cake in a battle situation, Robert got done in by Tarly, Stannis got done in by trying to strike a killing blow too early, which is more or less the same reason Robert got done in by Tarly... and, oh... you know I couldn't pick. Probably Robert because while Stannis is executing defeated foes and alienating their armies Robert is making them friends and growing in strength. Edit - Scratch that, Robert got beat by Tarly because he realised dealing with the Reach was important, something which Stannis apparently forgot while attempting to strike the killing blow, either way it cost them, but leaning more toward Robert now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Davos Baratheon Posted February 24, 2015 Share Posted February 24, 2015 Robert appears to be a better campaign manager than Stannis, but Stannis might take the cake in a battle situation, Robert got done in by Tarly, Stannis got done in by trying to strike a killing blow too early, which is more or less the same reason Robert got done in by Tarly... and, oh... you know I couldn't pick. Probably Robert because while Stannis is executing defeated foes and alienating their armies Robert is making them friends and growing in strength. Edit - Scratch that, Robert got beat by Tarly because he realised dealing with the Reach was important, something which Stannis apparently forgot while attempting to strike the killing blow, either way it cost them, but leaning more toward Robert now. The problem is sometimes Stannis is Stannis' worst enemy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The_Noctua Posted February 24, 2015 Share Posted February 24, 2015 Both have their strengths and weaknesses, but when it comes to backroom planning, Stannis wins. When it comes to leading in the front, Robert wins by a lot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Batbob45 Posted February 24, 2015 Share Posted February 24, 2015 Robert is an in the moment kind of person, Stannis was more cautious than Robert and Stannis more than likely , read about war more than Robert. I go with Stannis. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
James Arryn Posted February 24, 2015 Share Posted February 24, 2015 I really expected more to people to argue with my historical parallels. You guys are no fun. New version: Stannis is Joan of Arc! Come at me, Stannatics! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JonCon's Red Beard Posted February 24, 2015 Share Posted February 24, 2015 I really expected more to people to argue with my historical parallels. You guys are no fun. New version: Stannis is Joan of Arc! Come at me, Stannatics! Mel is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
James Arryn Posted February 24, 2015 Share Posted February 24, 2015 Mel is.The preemptive version? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JonCon's Red Beard Posted February 24, 2015 Share Posted February 24, 2015 The preemptive version? Well, the whole arc (heh) has a lot of elements of the mythology of JdA. Legend says she got burnt but her heart, and Stannis' symbol is a burning heart. Not to say going to the King to tell him the message from God and stuff. Mel is no maiden, though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
James Arryn Posted February 24, 2015 Share Posted February 24, 2015 Well, the whole arc (heh) has a lot of elements of the mythology of JdA. Legend says she got burnt but her heart, and Stannis' symbol is a burning heart. Not to say going to the King to tell him the message from God and stuff.Mel is no maiden, though.Erm, neither was Joan by the end. :(Anyways, I like Stannis as Charles VII. 'I am always surrounded by traitors! Even my children conspire for my crown! To the Devil with humanity; I wish I were made of glass like my father before me!' Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The_Noctua Posted February 24, 2015 Share Posted February 24, 2015 I really expected more to people to argue with my historical parallels. You guys are no fun.New version: Stannis is Joan of Arc! Come at me, Stannatics! I expected Dany to become a Joan of Arc-like figure (militarily speaking, not religiously), back when I liked her. I am more dissapointed in her than Tywin is dissapointed in Tyrion. Anyways, I like Stannis as Charles VII. 'I am always surrounded by traitors! That's about right. No need to add anything else. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DigUpHerBones Posted February 24, 2015 Share Posted February 24, 2015 "We all know what my brother would do. Robert would gallop up to the gates of Winterfell alone, break them with his warhammer and ride through the rubble to slay Roose Bolton with his left hand, and the Bastard with his right. I am not Robert. But we WILL march, and we will free Winterfell, or die in the attempt." That quote says it all, IMO. You could give Stannis twice the number of men, and Robert still wins 10 out of 10 times. Stannis, in his mind, is INFERIOR to Robert in every capacity. With that mindset going into a battle, no way Stannis could win. Could you EVER imagine Robert saying something to his men like, "or die in the attempt"? HELL NO!!! He would break out a better speech than Mel Gibson as William Wallace and Russell Crowe as General Maximus Arrelius combined. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pod The Impaler Posted February 24, 2015 Share Posted February 24, 2015 It is really a clash of style:Robert's warfare is (by reputation) all daring, rapid movement, initiative, charismatic leadership.Stannis' warfare is one of cunning strategy, exploiting weaknesses, iron discipline and ability to endure suffering. In truth, both men are good at the practice of warfare, so I have to say it really depends on what kind of war it is, and against whom. To be fair, Stannis screwed up monumentally at the Blackwater too. Leaving the Tyrells at his flank and not accounting for the location of Tywin's force were both huge errors. Well, to be fair on this point: Tyrion use of the wildlings was to blind Stannis' army as it approached, making it possible for Tywin and the Tyrells to surprise them at all - a point which Garlan Tyrell (I think) makes in gratitude after the battle.Of course, nobody openly gives Tyrion credit for that once the "Tywin saves King's Landing" tale was being told.If you asked who defeated Stannis at the Blackwater, my answer would be: 1 - Tyrion; 2 - Stannis himself (didn't just lose the Tyrells' support, but drove them into the arms of his foes), 3 - Tywin* *And even this was made possible by Balon & Theon Greyjoy attacking the North and seizing Winterfell. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
James Arryn Posted February 24, 2015 Share Posted February 24, 2015 I expected Dany to become a Joan of Arc-like figure (militarily speaking, not religiously), back when I liked her. I am more dissapointed in her than Tywin is dissapointed inI actually thought Temujin. All was going according to plan until Slaver's Bay happened, and instead of turning into Subotai, her Blood Riders turned into one dimensional bodyguards. That's about right. No need to add anything else.Lol, let's try an excercise'Everyone else always thinks the wrong thing.'What's the most likely explanation for that opinion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hodorisfaclessman Posted February 24, 2015 Share Posted February 24, 2015 Stannis is the better commander , its most likely ned and jon arryn etc did the actual thinking in the rebellion robert was just the figureheadPit them agaisnt each other with equal armies and stannis most likely mauls his older brother(from a safe distance of course not literaly) however theres always the chance of a beast like robert ploughing through and inspiring his men to victory even if they have walked into a trap ...im betting if it came to it though stannis would have thought of that and ensure a group of his biggest best men single robert out Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The_Noctua Posted February 24, 2015 Share Posted February 24, 2015 I actually thought Temujin. All was going according to plan until Slaver's Bay happened, and instead of turning into Subotai, her Blood Riders turned into one dimensional bodyguards. In the very beginning she was too sweet to be compared to Temujin. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
James Arryn Posted February 24, 2015 Share Posted February 24, 2015 In the very beginning she was too sweet to be compared to Temujin.She was young, as I'm sure he once was. But the phase after Drogo dies and the other Khals carve up their own pieces, leaving her alone and endangered with only a few followers on the Great Plain...and subsequently forming her own tribe from the cast-offs and the like, breaking down class barriers in favour of loyalty and merit...that was straight out of The Secret History. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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