R+L=J v.134

[BearQueen87]

1.No because the women's battle, childbirth, is only ever described as being bloody by GRRM. It's never once described as gory. In GRRM's world, childbirth is bloody, not gory. There's a distinction.

If Lyanna was spattered with blood, a term used to describe childbirths, there would be a correlation from Lyanna having died in the women's battle. She's covered in gore though so it doesn't work as the women's battle is never gory. She died in a man's battle, not a woman's battle according to Theon's dream.

Based off what?

2A- Gilly's fleeing from a mutiny within minutes of having given birth

B- Craster has a wife who birthed children without any problems according to him

C- Mel's perfectly fine after having birthed a shadow that has a corporeal form

D- Dany's out for a couple of days, but she's also heavily drugged. Once the drug's worn off she's up and about with the only thing she can't do is have sex

E- Ashara birthed a stillborn but was then strong enough to climb a tower and throw herself into the ocean

I know in real life it's not the case, but in the novels there's been plenty of people up and about no problem after having recently given birth. Just because in real life that's not what would happen doesn't mean that it's like it in the novels. We have examples of women giving birth and being fine, so it's completely possible, and the precedent is there, that Lyanna could have been the same.

1. Gore IS bloody. But I'm debating this with you anymore. You are being so strict and literal.

2A. Or she wold die. Adrenaline. It does things to people.

B. Birthing babes = / = getting up and fighting a battle afterwards

C. Uh, shadow babies don't rip up your womb because we don't know how that works magically. It's the most extreme "other" circumstance you could think of.

D. Because dragon dreams made her whole again. It wasn't the drugs. It was the series of dreams.

E. According to rumors, nothing slide or concrete

[Greymoon]

If Jon was inspired by a historical figure my bets are on Charles Martel.

Charles Martel was the illegitimate son of Pepin of Herstal and his concubine Alpaida...or maybe not. Maybe, he was the son of Pepin's second wife Alpaida. At least some french source seem to claim the two were married, and that Charles was only considered illegitimate because Herstal's first wife, didn't consider the marriage as valid.

Martel was the power behind the throne, the de facto ruler of the Franks, even though, he never assumed the title of King. He was grandfather of Charlemagne, and is considered a 'hero' of the age.. he stopped the Umayyad advance in Europe, and is thus sometimes still considered as the 'champion' or defender of Christianity.

[Ygritte]

1. Gore IS bloody. But I'm debating this with you anymore. You are being so strict and literal.

2A. Or she wold die. Adrenaline. It does things to people.

B. Birthing babes = / = getting up and fighting a battle afterwards

C. Uh, shadow babies don't rip up your womb because we don't know how that works magically. It's the most extreme "other" circumstance you could think of.

D. Because dragon dreams made her whole again. It wasn't the drugs. It was the series of dreams.

E. According to rumors, nothing slide or concrete

Not to mention, not every woman has the same experience of childbirth, and as for Ashara, I don't think her suicide or pseuicide even happened right after the birth. I think it was like a year later.

[JonCon's Red Beard]

"The girl had been recognizably the Princess Rhaenys, but the boy … a faceless horror of bone and brain and gore, a few hanks of fair hair." - ADwD p. 947

I would a have paid money to see the fist fight between baby Aegon and Gregor.

hahahahha... shouldn't have laughed with this :lol:

[markg171]

Not to mention, not every woman has the same experience of childbirth, and as for Ashara, I don't think her suicide or pseuicide even happened right after the birth. I think it was like a year later.

The only woman who is stated to have had problems with giving birth is Elia as far as I can recall. And she's specifically called out as that not being normal that's she's so bedridden after giving birth. Everyone else is fine.

As for the Ashara thing, not according to Barristan

But Ashara’s daughter had been stillborn, and his fair lady had thrown herself from a tower soon after, mad with grief for the child she had lost, and perhaps for the man who had dishonored her at Harrenhal as well. She died never knowing that Ser Barristan had loved her. How could she? He was a knight of the Kingsguard, sworn to celibacy. No good could have come from telling her his feelings. No good came from silence either. If I had unhorsed Rhaegar and crowned Ashara queen of love and beauty, might she have looked to me instead of Stark?

Barristan says she threw herself form the tower soon after she gave birth to a stillborn daughter, while she was mad with grief for the dead child. As BearQueen said it's only a rumour as how would Barristan know for sure, but this story doesn't have her debilitated at all from giving birth. She gives birth and is immediately fine to throw herself from her tower when she realizes that the child is dead.

[Ygritte]

The only woman who is stated to have had problems with giving birth is Elia as far as I can recall. And she's specifically called out as that not being normal that's she's so bedridden after giving birth. Everyone else is fine.

It's the pseudo-Middle Ages. All kinds of things can go wrong with childbirth. Joanna died. Dalla died. Rhaella died. Those are just high-profile examples. I'm beginning to think we didn't read the same books.

[JonCon's Red Beard]

The only woman who is stated to have had problems with giving birth is Elia as far as I can recall.

Elia didn't have problems with giving birth. She had been sickly her whole life. It's more likely that the aftermaths of the pregnancy could weaken her but not the birth itself. A lot of changes happen with pregnancy: blood pressure, heart, breathing, etc.

[markg171]

It's the pseudo-Middle Ages. All kinds of things can go wrong with childbirth. Joanna died. Dalla died. Rhaella died. Those are just high-profile examples. I'm beginning to think we didn't read the same books.

Those are all people who died in birth. None of them died after birthing their child.

And my point was that no one is stated to be particularly bed ridden in the series after having given birth, other than Elia who is called out as this being weird. Not that there are not problems that occur in childbirth, but there's no women in the books who after the births are left weak and bedridden except for Elia.

So the idea that Lyanna would have been too bedridden to go participate in some battle if she had just given birth is highly unlikely as that's not what happens at all in the novels when women give birth. Precedent shows that she would have been fine to be up and about and not confined to a bed.

[BearQueen87]

Those are all people who died in birth. None of them died after birthing their child.

You act as if those are two hugely different categories. The women Ygritte listed had a difficult childbirth and died during. Lyanna had a difficult childbirth but managed to hold on for a few days/ a week.

[Ygritte]

You act as if those are two hugely different categories. The women Ygritte listed had a difficult childbirth and died during. Lyanna had a difficult childbirth but managed to hold on for a few days/ a week.

Yup. And Elia had two difficult childbirths and survived both against the odds, only to die in another way. Everybody's complications aren't going to be exactly the same, but that doesn't make complications rare.

[markg171]

You act as if those are two hugely different categories. The women Ygritte listed had a difficult childbirth and died during. Lyanna had a difficult childbirth but managed to hold on for a few days/ a week.

It is a huge difference. There's never been a character who survived birthing their child only to then die. There has however been numerous women who died giving birth. There's numerous precedents for one, and none for the other. How is that not a huge distinction?

Yup. And Elia had two difficult childbirths and survived both against the odds, only to die in another way. Everybody's complications aren't going to be exactly the same, but that doesn't make complications rare.

No matter how great the complications are, all that really matters is that Elia survived the birth. In ASOIAF, if you survive the birth, you survive.

[BearQueen87]

It is a huge difference. There's never been a character who survived birthing their child only to then die. There has however been numerous women who died giving birth. There's numerous precedents for one, and none for the other. How is that not a huge distinction?

Because you know the history of every single woman ever on Planetos? It's happens ALL THE TIME. Women have a difficult labor and without proper care, die.

[corbon]

Stop feeding it!

[Meemaw]

I definitely won't start searching for terms, but can you tell me approximately, how many times the term "blood" or "bloody" is used when describing men's war? There is no such rule that men's war is "gory". It is both "gory" and "bloody". And because the "bloody bed" is a term used in itself, you cannot use "gory bed" instead.

But that's not even how I interpreted Theon's dream. I always thought that the meaning behind Lyanna being spattered with gore, is that basically she was the reason all those men died in the war, and therefore their blood (gore) is spattered on her.

So you assume that Lyanna died in a bed covered with blood? because that's not how I think it happened. Women give birth, and their bed becomes bloody in the process. Afterwards they clean up the mess, they clean up themselves, and when they happen to die a few days later, the bed in not literally bloody - but they still die in their bloody bed.

So obviously Ned didn't have to find Lyanna in a bloody bed, that makes no sense at all. Bloody bed is just a term used to describe childbirth. Women won't stay in a bloody bed for long. but they still die in their bloody bed, if they die because of the childbirth later on.

Are you saying there is no blood at all after a women gives birth. Im just trying to figure out where you are going with this? I am reading this as you saying that the process is bloody but after the baby arrives no more blood?

[sj4iy]

Stop feeding it!

Stop feeding it!

Stop feeding it!

Quoted 3 times for TRUTH.

[sj4iy]

So you assume that Lyanna died in a bed covered with blood? because that's not how I think it happened. Women give birth, and their bed becomes bloody in the process. Afterwards they clean up the mess, they clean up themselves, and when they happen to die a few days later, the bed in not literally bloody - but they still die in their bloody bed.

So obviously Ned didn't have to find Lyanna in a bloody bed, that makes no sense at all. Bloody bed is just a term used to describe childbirth. Women won't stay in a bloody bed for long. but they still die in their bloody bed, if they die because of the childbirth later on.

Uh, no. That's not at all correct.

Women continue to bleed for weeks (or even months) after giving birth. There's no 'give birth, clean up, all good'. You are literally ripped open in various places. There's a hole in the uterus where a placenta was just attached and a lot of blood flow just passed from mother to child...the lining of the uterus also sheds away. After birth, nurses come and 'massage' your stomach to help keep you from clotting up. That's why so, so many women died from blood loss before and after childbirth before the advent of modern medicine. I had a friend who nearly bled to death a month after the birth of her child from a hemorrhage because of complications.

So yeah...before people start arguing this, they need to check up on their biology.

If Lyanna had been sick after the birth of her child, her bed would have been LITERALLY bloody. Even if she did get up, clean herself off at one point (which I doubt), that would not have stopped the bleeding later on.

[markg171]

Uh, no. That's not at all correct.

Women continue to bleed for weeks (or even months) after giving birth. There's no 'give birth, clean up, all good'. You are literally ripped open in various places. There's a hole in the uterus where a placenta was just attached and a lot of blood flow just passed from mother to child...the lining of the uterus also sheds away. After birth, nurses come and 'massage' your stomach to help keep you from clotting up. That's why so, so many women died from blood loss before and after childbirth before the advent of modern medicine. I had a friend who nearly bled to death a month after the birth of her child from a hemorrhage because of complications.

So yeah...before people start arguing this, they need to check up on their biology.

If Lyanna had been sick after the birth of her child, her bed would have been LITERALLY bloody. Even if she did get up, clean herself off at one point (which I doubt), that would not have stopped the bleeding later on.

I don't think you really understand. It's not readers who need to check up on their biology, it's GRRM. He's the one who hasn't included any of this stuff in his novels, and instead has women marching cross country immediately after having given birth with no problem. GRRM is the one not including all the aftereffects of births in his novels, not readers with their theories. Readers are simply reacting to the world that GRRM has created.

You're trying to hold people's theories against the realities of real life, and not the realities of GRRM's story. Hence why you're saying it's impossible, when according to GRRM's world it's the norm.

[J. Stargaryen]

I'm all for a good disagreement over issues, but eff right off if you're not going to argue in good faith. That's pretty much all I ask.

[Ygritte]

I have a bad habit of drifting in and out of the forums depending on my level of obsession at any given moment. So please forgive me if this has already been done to death! I just saw it today in the Girl in Grey thread. Basically, it's a theory that the girl Melisandre saw in her vision might have been Lyanna--or maybe an amalgam of Lyanna with other characters. What do you guys think?

https://cantuse.wordpress.com/2014/10/29/lyanna-the-grey/

[BearQueen87]

I have a bad habit of drifting in and out of the forums depending on my level of obsession at any given moment. So please forgive me if this has already been done to death! I just saw it today in the Girl in Grey thread. Basically, it's a theory that the girl Melisandre saw in her vision might have been Lyanna--or maybe an amalgam of Lyanna with other characters. What do you guys think?

https://cantuse.wordpress.com/2014/10/29/lyanna-the-grey/

Actually about 10ish threads ago we started off the RLJ by talking about how the girl in grey (who turns out to be Alys Katstark) was a very clear parallel to Lyanna and RLJ. I'll try to find it.