R+L=J v.134

[Han Snow]

I think that Theon's dream is supernatural and as such autonomous and truthful. Theon may not understand what was happening but he doesn't have to - He is a vehicle for a careful reader. The dream contributes to the R+L= J theory in a vital, subtle manner. We are the ones who should be asking questions like why white dress/crown of roses/gore/sadness...

"Lyanna in her bed of blood..." is another valuable clue. It read like "Lyanna in the bed of blood of her making/doing".

Indeed. Always looked at it this way.

[Alia of the knife]

I think that Theon's dream is supernatural and as such autonomous and truthful. Theon may not understand what was happening but he doesn't have to - He is a vehicle for a careful reader. The dream contributes to the R+L= J theory in a vital, subtle manner. We are the ones who should be asking questions like why white dress/crown of roses/gore/sadness...

"Lyanna in her bed of blood..." is another valuable clue. It read like "Lyanna in the bed of blood of her making/doing".

And another like parallel in terms of careful reading.

"Prince Rhaegar loved HIS lady Lyanna, and thousands died for it."

From Dany:

"If he loved you, he would come and carry you off at swordpoint, as Rhaegar carried off HIS northern girl."

Both possessive speech, and in Danys case, she never even refers to Lyanna by name, but calls her "girl."

The "Stark girl," "his northern girl."

Not exactly respectful, when she is actually the Lady Lyanna of Winterfell.

Sansas detractors at court refer to her title as "Winterfell's daughter" even as they spread gossip about her turning into a wolf.

And even careful Barriston doesn't call her the lady Lyanna, but "his"(Rhaegar's), lady Lyanna.

[Suzanna Stormborn]

This.

I had complications with my first child...many, many of them. I needed help for 6 months and my child was 1 year old before I fully recovered.

I had none with my second child...the day I came home- I was doing laundry, running errands, etc. The only problem I had was loose joints (which is normal), but that cleared up pretty quickly.

I have no doubt that the author is fully aware that the birthing process is not always the same...even for the same woman.

Of course, I don't expect trolls like mark to really care about things like 'facts'.

You're a girl? I didn't know that lol, sorry.

On the subject of bloody child beds, I think that maybe some people don't understand exactly how much blood there is a possibility of. Not to be gross, but a whole helluva lot of blood. Still not trying to be gross, but just the amount of blood during 'monthlies' can be flat out alarming. If anyone has ever had a miscarriage, they would also know the psychotic amount of blood that happens. Like you would never think you could lose that much blood and still be living. So in the case of Lyanna, having a baby then bleeding out. I imagine there would be enough blood to make it look like several animals had been slaughtered and drained and flung about the room.

[sj4iy]

You're a girl? I didn't know that lol, sorry.

Lol, it's okay...lots of people have thought I was a guy, it doesn't bother me.

On the subject of bloody child beds, I think that maybe some people don't understand exactly how much blood there is a possibility of. Not to be gross, but a whole helluva lot of blood. Still not trying to be gross, but just the amount of blood during 'monthlies' can be flat out alarming. If anyone has ever had a miscarriage, they would also know the psychotic amount of blood that happens. Like you would never think you could lose that much blood and still be living. So in the case of Lyanna, having a baby then bleeding out. I imagine there would be enough blood to make it look like several animals had been slaughtered and drained and flung about the room.

Pretty much this. I had bleeding for 2 months after my first child...and it was very, very heavy. It's not at all pretty.

[JonCon's Red Beard]

It's not only that there is blood. What starts as a normal pregnancy and keeps that way up until the 8 1/2 month, it can turn out messy at the end for not given reason. I was having quite a normal pregnancy and ready for a natural delivery until everything went to hell and I needed a c-section and almost died, me and my baby. I'm sure that everything went to hell for Lyanna and her baby when they found out Rhaegar died and the Rebellion was killing Targaryen babies.

[Mithras]

Childbirth is an awe inspiring miracle. We can only :bowdown: before women for how much they suffer just in delivering us (and that is not the end of their troubles!).

Dying in childbirth is not an condescending end for Dany. As Apple Martini said, it is something feminine and more powerful than a male fantasy (dying in battle to save the humanity).

From storywise perspective, it will not be an unsatisfactory end. Dany's mother had lots of stillbirths and died while giving birth to Dany. Dany's first pregnancy ended very badly due to MMD's magical intervention. MMD seemed sure that Dany will never bear a living child again (although that does not mean that she will never get pregnant again). In fact, she did get pregnant and had a miscarriage due to food poisoning. If Dany dies in childbirth at the end, it cannot be taken as coming out of nowhere. The build up is clearly there.

[Ygrain]

It's not only that there is blood. What starts as a normal pregnancy and keeps that way up until the 8 1/2 month, it can turn out messy at the end for not given reason. I was having quite a normal pregnancy and ready for a natural delivery until everything went to hell and I needed a c-section and almost died, me and my baby. I'm sure that everything went to hell for Lyanna and her baby when they found out Rhaegar died and the Rebellion was killing Targaryen babies.

That's my opinion, as well. Some time ago, I brought up the parallel of Tristan, whose mother went into labour and died during it under the impact of the news of her husband's death.

[sj4iy]

It's not only that there is blood. What starts as a normal pregnancy and keeps that way up until the 8 1/2 month, it can turn out messy at the end for not given reason. I was having quite a normal pregnancy and ready for a natural delivery until everything went to hell and I needed a c-section and almost died, me and my baby. I'm sure that everything went to hell for Lyanna and her baby when they found out Rhaegar died and the Rebellion was killing Targaryen babies.

Sorry to hear that. I had a very normal first pregnancy and a very difficult delivery. But the worst came after- I didn't realize it at the time, but the difficult delivery had caused interruption the blood flow to my brain, and I nearly died before they diagnosed me with Addison's disease. The pregnancy had also caused Grave's disease, as well.

Even today, pregnancy is far from risk-free.

[BearQueen87]

It's not only that there is blood. What starts as a normal pregnancy and keeps that way up until the 8 1/2 month, it can turn out messy at the end for not given reason. I was having quite a normal pregnancy and ready for a natural delivery until everything went to hell and I needed a c-section and almost died, me and my baby. I'm sure that everything went to hell for Lyanna and her baby when they found out Rhaegar died and the Rebellion was killing Targaryen babies.

And leading up to the news, it's like not L and R were living a carefree existence that would be ideal for childbearing. Food concerns, emotional concerns, safety concerns. I'm sure it wasn't an idyllic existence--even if R and L were happy to be together

[Suzanna Stormborn]

And leading up to the news, it's like not L and R were living a carefree existence that would be ideal for childbearing. Food concerns, emotional concerns, safety concerns. I'm sure it wasn't an idyllic existence--even if R and L were happy to be together

Yes for sure, the stress level she would have been under at that point, at 16 yeard old, would be insurmountable. That along with news of her true loves death, obviously along with her brother and father dying as well, and Bobby going a little nuts. I cant even imagine what she was going through honestly.

[UnmaskedLurker]

That's my opinion, as well. Some time ago, I brought up the parallel of Tristan, whose mother went into labour and died during it under the impact of the news of her husband's death.

How does shock from new of Rhaegar's death lead to puerperal fever? Or do you not subscribe to the theory that Lyanna died of puerperal fever?

[Mithras]

How does shock from new of Rhaegar's death lead to puerperal fever? Or do you not subscribe to the theory that Lyanna died of puerperal fever?

Stress and grief weakens the immune system. It is known.

[Ygrain]

How does shock from new of Rhaegar's death lead to puerperal fever? Or do you not subscribe to the theory that Lyanna died of puerperal fever?

One does not exclude the other. If she went into labour a bit pretimely, the child may not have been positioned correctly, hence causing great injury leading to puerperal fever.

[Prince of the North]

Even today, pregnancy is far from risk-free.

Heh, tell me about it! I, too, know a bit about birth complications and I'm sorry you had to go through that.

While I think there may be some alternate possibilities (for which there is absolutely no textual support as of yet) for Lyanna's state when Ned finds her, I still believe puerperal fever is by far the most likely scenario :dunno:

[Alia of the knife]

There was always something that disturbed me about the WB entry and the phrasing of the language, so I went back to it.

"With the coming of the new year, the crown prince had taken to the road with half a dozen of his closest friends and confidants, on a journey that would ultimately lead him back to the Riverlands.

Not ten leagues from Harrenhal, Rhaegare fell upon Lyanna Stark of Winterfell, and carried her off, lighting a fire that would consume his house and kin and all those he loved- and half the realm besides."

Given the vernacular of the times in which this is supposed to be written, and knowing a bit about it, it is very different from came upon, happened upon, or stumbled upon.

I researched it for good measure, and in just about every instance it means to attack, which would be consistent with her being taken by swordpoint.

Examples from Don Quiote, to even Biblical writings, the format of this term are the same, and its not the same as "meeting" someone, accident or not, and Martin is a deliberate writer.

It also means that quite a few people may have been involved beyond just Dayne and Whent, and parallels Neds own company and journey to find Lyanna ending at the TOJ.

[SFDanny]

How does shock from new of Rhaegar's death lead to puerperal fever? Or do you not subscribe to the theory that Lyanna died of puerperal fever?

Stress and grief weakens the immune system. It is known.

One does not exclude the other. If she went into labour a bit pretimely, the child may not have been positioned correctly, hence causing great injury leading to puerperal fever.

Stress and injury in childbirth certainly contribute to the likelihood of infection and the inability to fight off infection, but the infection itself is caused by the introduction of bacteria into the injured body. The reason puerperal fever is called the "doctor's plague" is because the doctors caused it by not sterilizing their hands and the medical instruments used during delivery. It's interesting that in the real world that during that time of our history a pregnant women had a higher chance of childbirth death if she went to those thought as the epitome of modern medicine rather than the more traditional midwife. My guess is that Martin brings this real world experience into his fantasy world with the order of the maesters. If true, it suggests that a maester may have been at Lyanna's delivery of her child. Certainly we are told over and over again in the books about maesters being present at the birth of highborn children. If possible, I think Rhaegar and Lyanna would be no different in wanting a maester there.

Of course, that begs the question what maester would Rhaegar and Lyanna trust to know of Lyanna's hiding place and with care of Lyanna during her pregnancy? We obviously can't know for sure, but I really want to know where Marwyn was at the time. As Westeros's resident expert in all things to do with magic and prophecy, he would certainly fit into the profile of someone Rhaegar would have had contact with and who might have developed a relationship with the prophecy obsessed prince. In addition, I'd like to know when Marwyn begins his travels to the far east? Could it have coincided with Ned's arrival with the sword Dawn at Starfall? In short, could Marwyn have been one of the people who make up the "they" who found Ned holding Lyanna's dead body? Also, would Marwyn's guilt over not being able to save Lyanna provoke his interest in finding out how other cultures view the best practices of the "secrets of the bloody bed?"

[Prince of the North]

There was always something that disturbed me about the WB entry and the phrasing of the language, so I went back to it.

"With the coming of the new year, the crown prince had taken to the road with half a dozen of his closest friends and confidants, on a journey that would ultimately lead him back to the Riverlands.

Not ten leagues from Harrenhal, Rhaegare fell upon Lyanna Stark of Winterfell, and carried her off, lighting a fire that would consume his house and kin and all those he loved- and half the realm besides."

Given the vernacular of the times in which this is supposed to be written, and knowing a bit about it, it is very different from came upon, happened upon, or stumbled upon.

I researched it for good measure, and in just about every instance it means to attack, which would be consistent with her being taken by swordpoint.

Examples from Don Quiote, to even Biblical writings, the format of this term are the same, and its not the same as "meeting" someone, accident or not, and Martin is a deliberate writer.

It also means that quite a few people may have been involved beyond just Dayne and Whent, and parallels Neds own company and journey to find Lyanna ending at the TOJ.

Excellent point! However, could this just be an instance of the perspective or opinion of the Maester writing the world book entry being put down as "truth". I mean, that is the "official" story - that Rhaegar abducted Lyanna :dunno:

[Suzanna Stormborn]

Stress and injury in childbirth certainly contribute to the likelihood of infection and the inability to fight off infection, but the infection itself is caused by the introduction of bacteria into the injured body. The reason puerperal fever is called the "doctor's plague" is because the doctors caused it by not sterilizing their hands and the medical instruments used during delivery. It's interesting that in the real world that during that time of our history a pregnant women had a higher chance of childbirth death if she went to those thought as the epitome of modern medicine rather than the more traditional midwife. My guess is that Martin brings this real world experience into his fantasy world with the order of the maesters. If true, it suggests that a maester may have been at Lyanna's delivery of her child. Certainly we are told over and over again in the books about maesters being present at the birth of highborn children. If possible, I think Rhaegar and Lyanna would be no different in wanting a maester there.

Of course, that begs the question what maester would Rhaegar and Lyanna trust to know of Lyanna's hiding place and with care of Lyanna during her pregnancy? We obviously can't know for sure, but I really want to know where Marwyn was at the time. As Westeros's resident expert in all things to do with magic and prophecy, he would certainly fit into the profile of someone Rhaegar would have had contact with and who might have developed a relationship with the prophecy obsessed prince. In addition, I'd like to know when Marwyn begins his travels to the far east? Could it have coincided with Ned's arrival with the sword Dawn at Starfall? In short, could Marwyn have been one of the people who make up the "they" who found Ned holding Lyanna's dead body?

That would be nuts!

[BearQueen87]

Of course, that begs the question what maester would Rhaegar and Lyanna trust to know of Lyanna's hiding place and with care of Lyanna during her pregnancy? We obviously can't know for sure, but I really want to know where Marwyn was at the time. As Westeros's resident expert in all things to do with magic and prophecy, he would certainly fit into the profile of someone Rhaegar would have had contact with and who might have developed a relationship with the prophecy obsessed prince. In addition, I'd like to know when Marwyn begins his travels to the far east? Could it have coincided with Ned's arrival with the sword Dawn at Starfall? In short, could Marwyn have been one of the people who make up the "they" who found Ned holding Lyanna's dead body? Also, would Marwyn's guilt over not being able to save Lyanna provoke his interest in finding out how other cultures view the best practices of the "secrets of the bloody bed?"

I think they had a midwife (perhaps Wylla who doubled as a wet nurse as well) but not Maester--though Marwyn is an intriguing possibility, though i don't know if there is any evidence for it.

[SFDanny]

That would be nuts!

In a good way or bad? :laugh:

Also I see your post leaves out my last sentence because I was adding the point through an edit. What do think of that? Nuts as well?