R+L=J v.134

[Alia of the knife]

Going back to Ashara as PL mistress, the thing I'm cautious about is the age thing because I do think Arianne means old woman as in Tywin old, Lady Olenna old, etc.

We're talking about her grandmothers brother, her great uncle.

I also think its possible the mistress could have either been a young widow, or even married as a young noble maids marriage prospects would be damaged by such an affair, whereas a widow, courtesan, or another mans wife, (depending on the couple), would be more palatable.

And I do think Selmy does know who these mysterious men and women are, he,(Martin), just isn't telling.

This takes me back to B+A, because I don't think its an accident that the most information we ever get on Brandon coincides with the most information we get on Ashara a couple of chapters later.

[BearQueen87]

I don't think R and L decided to run away as soon as they met near Harrenhal. That decision might have come later, well after Howland left. So, Howland might have been quite shocked to hear that R and L didnot do the thing they decided to do during the meeting and instead they ran away. So, even Howland might have suspected that whether Rhaegar really kidnapped her.

Oh, see...I think that it might have been planned between RL. As if they were communicating together beforehand, not necessarily to run away and get married and have babies, but that something happened in between HH and HH pt 2

Man, I didn't realize a noble lady like Ashara slept around so much. Especially since the text never mentions her having more than one lover named STARK.

Everybody sleeps with everybody in Westeros. It's why Jon is everybody's son.

[Alia of the knife]

Yes I agree with that. The others were sent off on some mission.

Or, some in the group didn't like what was going to happen.

I've always speculated that Joncon may have tried to talk Rhaegar out of it, and while a dear friend, still got shut out because sometimes that happens when that friend hears something they don't want to hear.

[Ygritte]

Rhaenys_Targaryen,

"However, I can't predict whether GRRM has kept Neds travel time into account. If GRRM wants Ned to have made the journey from KL to ToJ in roughly 2 weeks, he made that journey in those 2 weeks.."

Yes, my sentiments exactly. >_< I suspect the same for Lyanna's labour - as long as necessary.

Yup! GRRM totally used authorial license to have the birth happen right when it needed to happen story-wise. Ned didn't show up to find her long-dead, and he didn't show up to find her seven months along and healthy. He showed up just in time for deathbed promises and cryptic hints. :devil: Because you can do that when you're the author, lol.

Yes, the KL courtiers still "gave Sansa her due," though she was disgraced.

As for Dany, she never knew Rhaegar, and got her tales from Viserys.

To not recognize another noble by their title, and in this case, refer to her in the common vernacular "girl," or "Rhaegars northern girl," rather than the lady Lyanna, is disrespectful.

IMO, Dany is being disrespectful toward Lyanna because she's not a Targ, and specifically because she's not Dany. Viserys blamed her for the whole war because (according to him) if she'd been born earlier, she could have married Rhaegar and kept his whole attention. I think she's internalized that a bit, and thinks she would have been a better match for him, and in any case that another Targ would have been a better match for him. After all, from Viserys's stories, she has really grand ideas about Targ superiority, and when he disillusions her, she only thinks he wasn't a real dragon, not that the whole family might not be all it's cracked up to be.

As for Ashara's lover, I think she slept with Brandon but went to Ned for help when Brandon let her down. So in a way, she "turned to" both Starks, but in different ways.

[SFDanny]

Ah, no no... I don't use the travel time of 298 to determine travel time in 281/282.... I used the travel time from 298 to determine the minimum time until we see LF, whose nameday has not yet passed. He is not yet 30 when in front of Cat, so he is 29 or younger. But he can't be younger than 29, otherwise there is no reason for Cat to call him scarcely 15 in 282 AC. (298-29= 269 AC. If LF wad any younger, his birth would have occurred later, and it would become impossible for him to have had the right age during the duel).

Rhaegar doesn't kidnapp Lyanna in the first month... At least, not that is supported by text. LF's nameday had passed by the time of the duel, and hasn't passed yet a few months into the year, so the duel took place a bit later. Brandon learnt of Lyanna a while after the duel (how much longer after the duel is unknown). The Battle of the Bells definitely occurs in 283 AC. I saw nothing in the World Book suggesting otherwise, but plenty of clues in the other books that point to 283 AC.

For the ages of the Tully girls, I wrote it all down here: http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Years_after_Aegon%27s_Conquest/Calculations_Ages

Catelyn: http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Years_after_Aegon%27s_Conquest/Calculations_Ages#Catelyn_Tully

Lysa: http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Years_after_Aegon%27s_Conquest/Calculations_Ages_(Continued2)#Lysa_Tully

Petyr: http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Years_after_Aegon%27s_Conquest/Calculations_Ages_(Continued2)#Petyr_Baelish

Could be I missed a character here or there, but most for who it is possible should be in there :) the accompanying thread is in my. signature

When the madness of King Aerys II became too much to be borne it was to Lord Robert that the lords of the realm turned. In 282 AC, at the ford of the Trident, Robert Baratheon slew Rhaegar Targaryen, Prince of Dragonstone, and shattered his host, effectively ending three centuries of rule by the House of the Dragons. Soon after he ascended the Iron Throne himself as Robert I Baratheon, the progenitor of a glorious new dynasty. (The World of Ice & Fire 230-231) bold emphasis added

If the Battle of the Trident is in 282 then the Battle of the Bells has to be before it in time. I know, I know, all my calculations before this book had it otherwise as well, but this is the first place we are given a year in which the Trident takes place. It forces us to make major revisions in the time line.

Unless Ran or Linda wants to tell us it's a typo? Ran? Ran? Linda? Linda? :drunk:

Thanks, for the links. I'll look into it and get back to you.

[BearQueen87]

Or, some in the group didn't like what was going to happen.

I've always speculated that Joncon may have tried to talk Rhaegar out of it, and while a dear friend, still got shut out because sometimes that happens when that friend hears something they don't want to hear.

I am suspicious that Lem is still alive and in hiding, proclaiming himself to be Robert's man. I get the feeling Lonmouth did not approve of something and switched sides. He'll be contrasted to JonCon who remains loyal to Rhaegar to this day.

[Alia of the knife]

Yup! GRRM totally used authorial license to have the birth happen right when it needed to happen story-wise. Ned didn't show up to find her long-dead, and he didn't show up to find her seven months along and healthy. He showed up just in time for deathbed promises and cryptic hints. :devil: Because you can do that when you're the author, lol.

IMO, Dany is being disrespectful toward Lyanna because she's not a Targ, and specifically because she's not Dany. Viserys blamed her for the whole war because (according to him) if she'd been born earlier, she could have married Rhaegar and kept his whole attention. I think she's internalized that a bit, and thinks she would have been a better match for him, and in any case that another Targ would have been a better match for him. After all, from Viserys's stories, she has really grand ideas about Targ superiority, and when he disillusions her, she only thinks he wasn't a real dragon, not that the whole family might not be all it's cracked up to be.

As for Ashara's lover, I think she slept with Brandon but went to Ned for help when Brandon let her down. So in a way, she "turned to" both Starks, but in different ways.

This, this, and this.

Yes, Dany is half in love herself with the memory of Rhaegar, but to be fair, I think she did feel for Elia. All of Rhaegars family and friends probably tried to find a reason for what he did.

[Alia of the knife]

I am suspicious that Lem is still alive and in hiding, proclaiming himself to be Robert's man. I get the feeling Lonmouth did not approve of something and switched sides. He'll be contrasted to JonCon who remains loyal to Rhaegar to this day.

Totally agree with this.

(I really need my laptop).

[Ygritte]

This, this, and this.

Yes, Dany is half in love herself with the memory of Rhaegar, but to be fair, I think she did feel for Elia. All of Rhaegars family and friends probably tried to find a reason for what he did.

And yup, as said earlier, she does like the story, she just doesn't think Lyanna was worthy of all that.. Or her abstract idea of Lyanna, whom she didn't know and hasn't even heard any other stories about except that one. And I definitely think she has a bit of a crush on the Rhaegar of legend.

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

If the Battle of the Trident is in 282 then the Battle of the Bells has to be before it in time. I know, I know, all my calculations before this book had it otherwise as well, but this is the first place we are given a year in which the Trident takes place. It forces us to make major revisions in the time line.

Unless Ran or Linda wants to tell us it's a typo? Ran? Ran? Linda? Linda? :drunk:

Thanks, for the links. I'll look into it and get back to you.

Ran confirmed that it was supposed to say 283 AC. I'll post the thread where he says it when I get home

[Moondancer]

Alia of the Knife,

I get what you're saying but I don't think the context allows for such a possibility. It's endearing. :)

Also, the highborn more often than not address each other by family name, and add the title only on account of formality/being in each other's company. Dany, of course, can be slapdash. :)

Ygritte,

:D God, my theory suffers because of GRRM's whimsy nature!

[SFDanny]

Ran confirmed that it was supposed to say 283 AC. I'll post the thread where he says it when I get home

Really? Wow! That's one hell of a typo! A mistake on the date of the most important battle in the history of the critical backstory of the series? The first and only time we are given a date for the battle? How did that get through to go to the printers? I'm both relieved and pissed. It makes much more sense if the Trident is fought in 283 as we all believed before this book, but I've spent too much time trying to figure out how to make this "new" timeline work. Thank you, and please, if you can post the thread where Ran writes about the typo I'd very much appreciate it.

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

Really? Wow! That's one hell of a typo! A mistake on the date of the most important battle in the history of the critical backstory of the series? The first and only time we are given a date for the battle? How did that get through to go to the printers? I'm both relieved and pissed. It makes much more sense if the Trident is fought in 283 as we all believed before this book, but I've spent too much time trying to figure out how to make this "new" timeline work. Thank you, and please, if you can post the thread where Ran writes about the typo I'd very much appreciate it.

Here's the link (and the thread, immediately). Most of the mistakes are gathered in the first page, only in the last few pages, where the more complicated stuff was discussed, it got rather difficult, so they are missing from the OP.

http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/119534-twoiaf-spoilers-inconsistency-or-intentional/?p=6391443

[JonCon's Red Beard]

Yandry and Ysilla are no longer part of the group. And you forgot Tyrion, who was also part of the group when they were all on the boat..

With him they were eight. When he was out of the boat, they returned to seven. And one of them is dying.

[JonCon's Red Beard]

I've always speculated that Joncon may have tried to talk Rhaegar out of it, and while a dear friend, still got shut out because sometimes that happens when that friend hears something they don't want to hear.

The only thing JonCon would tried to talk Rhaegar out of is heterosexuality. Nah, he wouldn't. I think it's Lonmouth/Len the one who got fed up either with his plans to remove Aerys, his babbling about prophecies or the fact he "stole" Robert's woman.

[BearQueen87]

The only thing JonCon would tried to talk Rhaegar out of is heterosexuality. Nah, he wouldn't. I think it's Lonmouth/Len the one who got fed up either with his plans to remove Aerys, his babbling about prophecies or the fact he "stole" Robert's woman.

I think it's that last one. Removing Aerys wasn't a bad idea and I think all of his companions would be on board. It's this last idea that probably rubbed Lonmouth the wrong way given his relationship with Robert but also it might have struck Lonmouth as being more "Aerys like" than Rhaegar like.

"We are not getting rid of your meglomanic father just so you can do whatever you want, Rhaegar!" Lonmouth likely didn't know about prophecy or what was going on between R and L.

[JonCon's Red Beard]

I think it's that last one. Removing Aerys wasn't a bad idea and I think all of his companions would be on board. It's this last idea that probably rubbed Lonmouth the wrong way given his relationship with Robert but also it might have struck Lonmouth as being more "Aerys like" than Rhaegar like.

"We are not getting rid of your meglomanic father just so you can do whatever you want, Rhaegar!" Lonmouth likely didn't know about prophecy or what was going on between R and L.

Lonmouth was the Pettigrew of the group. Jon was the Sirius who ended up 12 years in Esskaban and now is back to kill everybody :( Mooton was the Mooney.

[BearQueen87]

Lonmouth was the Pettigrew of the group. Jon was the Sirius who ended up 12 years in Esskaban and now is back to kill everybody :( Mooton was the Mooney.

Will JonCon's final words be looking at Jon Snow and saying "nice hit, Rhaegar!" I might cry.

[Alia of the knife]

The only thing JonCon would tried to talk Rhaegar out of is heterosexuality. Nah, he wouldn't. I think it's Lonmouth/Len the one who got fed up either with his plans to remove Aerys, his babbling about prophecies or the fact he "stole" Robert's woman.

:laugh:

In all seriousness, I do think Joncon was still a product of his time and place, sexuality nonwithstanding, and he understood what the expectations were. His contempt for Elia may stem partly from jealousy, but he always knew that Rhaegar would marry, he also likely knew he would have to marry, so I think a lot of what he observed was that it didn't seem as if Elia could perform her duties.

Like many, I think he scapegoated Elia for not keeping Rhaegar happy, but I think he hated Lyanna because he blames her for bringing Rhaegar down, or being his weakness. Whatever reasons Rhaegar might have given for why it was a good idea to take Lyanna, I give Joncon the benefit of the doubt that he put aside his personal feelings and jealousies, and tried to tell Rhaegar to stay home for his own good.

[JonCon's Red Beard]

Will JonCon's final words be looking at Jon Snow and saying "nice hit, Rhaegar!" I might cry.

"I did it... I put Rhaegar's son on the Iron Throne"

And Jon Connington died content.