R+L=J v.134

[J. Stargaryen]

Such as Howland and Ashara?

Those are two people. :)

[JonCon's Red Beard]

Oh by the way, has anyone talked about how Rhaegar's party consisted of seven men? Almost makes you wonder if Lyanna might have had a couple of traveling companions.

Actually, we've talked about how seven people in one party is bad luck. Arianne and her friends were also seven. Also Ned's party.

(wait... Jon, Aegon, Haldon, Yandry, Ysilla, Lemore, Duck... oh, god... )

[J. Stargaryen]

Actually, we've talked about how seven people in one party is bad luck. Arianne and her friends were also seven. Also Ned's party.

(wait... Jon, Aegon, Haldon, Yandry, Ysilla, Lemore, Duck... oh, god... )

Do you recall where this discussion took place?

[JonCon's Red Beard]

Do you recall where this discussion took place?

Ufff.... I think it was in the TWOIAF subforum. But it wasn't that elaborated.

Either way, Arianne thought it was a good sign. Is it?

Rhaegar's group: Rhaegar, Arthur, Oswell, Mooton, Lonmouth, Jon, Lewyn/Darry. All dead but one, maybe two.

Arianne's group: Arianne, Drey, Sylva, Darkstar, Garin, Arys and Myrcella. Arys died and Myrcella was severely wounded.

Ned's: Ned, Howard, five more I don't remember... died anyway.

[Kingmonkey]

Arya likes to describe things as "stupid" so it's hard to say if this is a real connection or a coincidence. But, given the other 'coincidences' between the two passages, I'm less inclined to dismiss it as such. Is it a coincidence that both of these are from Arya POV chapters?

In ACoK ch 64, Arya calls four different things stupid: Joffrey's fat pouty lips, her iron coin, Elmar Frey, and Elmar's princess. This latter, who she wishes dead, is of course herself. I think there's a pattern in Arya that she has a tendency to dismiss as stupid things she doesn't realise apply in some degree or through some symbolic link to herself. I suspect that "Sansa would have sighed and shed a tear for true love, but Arya just thought it was stupid. She couldn’t say that to Ned, though, not about his own aunt." is part of that pattern, that it's not just Ned (Dayne) the story relates to, but without her realising yet, her father Ned too.

[J. Stargaryen]

Ufff.... I think it was in the TWOIAF subforum. But it wasn't that elaborated.

Either way, Arianne thought it was a good sign. Is it?

Rhaegar's group: Rhaegar, Arthur, Oswell, Mooton, Lonmouth, Jon, Lewyn/Darry. All dead but one, maybe two.

Arianne's group: Arianne, Drey, Sylva, Darkstar, Garin, Arys and Myrcella. Arys died and Myrcella was severely wounded.

Ned's: Ned, Howard, five more I don't remember... died anyway.

Okay thanks. It might not even mean much that Rhaegar's party had seven people. Just a case of themes repeating themselves.

[J. Stargaryen]

In ACoK ch 64, Arya calls four different things stupid: Joffrey's fat pouty lips, her iron coin, Elmar Frey, and Elmar's princess. This latter, who she wishes dead, is of course herself. I think there's a pattern in Arya that she has a tendency to dismiss as stupid things she doesn't realise apply in some degree or through some symbolic link to herself. I suspect that "Sansa would have sighed and shed a tear for true love, but Arya just thought it was stupid. She couldn’t say that to Ned, though, not about his own aunt." is part of that pattern, that it's not just Ned (Dayne) the story relates to, but without her realising yet, her father Ned too.

How do you mean? Arya already knows that her father is involved in the story. And she hears that they supposedly fell in love just a few sentences later. Or, is it that are you referring to the latter part?

Here's the passage in question, for anyone who wants to read it.

Ned looked wary. Maybe he was afraid that she was going to throw something at him. “Your lord father never spoke of her?” he said. “The Lady Ashara Dayne, of Starfall?”

“No. Did he know her?”

“Before Robert was king. She met your father and his brothers at Harrenhal, during the year of the false spring.”

“Oh.” Arya did not know what else to say. “Why did she jump in the sea, though?”

“Her heart was broken.”

Sansa would have sighed and shed a tear for true love, but Arya just thought it was stupid. She couldn’t say that to Ned, though, not about his own aunt. “Did someone break it?”

He hesitated. “Perhaps it’s not my place…”

“Tell me.”

He looked at her uncomfortably. “My aunt Allyria says Lady Ashara and your father fell in love at Harrenhal—

- ASoS, Arya VIII

[DanaKz]

I was thinking about this Harrenhall thing again, I mean its timing.

The tourney was first announced by Walter Whent, Lord of Harrenhal, late in the year 280 AC, not long after a visit from his younger brother, Ser Oswell Whent,

IN THE ANNALS of Westeros, 281 AC is known as the Year of the False Spring. Winter had held the land in its icy grip for close on two years, but now at last the snows were melting, the woods were greening, the days were growing longer.

As warm winds blew from the south, lords and knights from throughout the Seven Kingdoms made their way toward Harrenhal to compete in Lord Whent’s great tournament

All that winter the crannogman stayed on the isle, but when the spring broke he heard the wide world calling and knew the time had come to leave. His skin boat was just where he’d left it, so he said his farewells and paddled off toward shore. He rowed and rowed, and finally saw the distant towers of a castle rising beside the lake

So, everybody say tournament began with spring. It lasted for ten days.

But spring came for for two monthes only:

The False Spring of 281 AC lasted less than two turns. As the year drew to a close, winter returned to Westeros with a vengeance. On the last day of the year, snow began to fall upon King’s Landing

As cold winds hammered the city, King Aerys II turned to his pyromancers, charging them to drive the winter off with their magics. Huge green fires burned along the walls of the Red Keep for a moon’s turn

Prince Rhaegar was not in the city to observe them, however. Nor could he be found in Dragonstone with Princess Elia and their young son, Aegon. With the coming of the new year, the crown prince had taken to the road with half a dozen of his closest friends

Spring lasted two monthes only, at the end of the year winter came back.

Let's presume it was November or December, maybe October, it means False Spring took place during September/October, possibly August.

But nobody says Elia was pregant during Tournament...

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

Oh by the way, has anyone talked about how Rhaegar's party consisted of seven men? Almost makes you wonder if Lyanna might have had a couple of traveling companions.

Well, there must have been someone to spread the news of what happened... A witness or two would be useful..

Actually, we've talked about how seven people in one party is bad luck. Arianne and her friends were also seven. Also Ned's party.

(wait... Jon, Aegon, Haldon, Yandry, Ysilla, Lemore, Duck... oh, god... )

Yandry and Ysilla are no longer part of the group. And you forgot Tyrion, who was also part of the group when they were all on the boat..

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

I was thinking about this Harrenhall thing again, I mean its timing.

So, everybody say tournament began with spring. It lasted for ten days.

But spring came for for two monthes only:

Spring lasted two monthes only, at the end of the year winter came back.

Let's presume it was November or December, maybe October, it means False Spring took place during September/October, possibly August.

But nobody says Elia was pregant during Tournament...

I have been thinking about that timeline as well, and propose the following:

The False Spring of 281 AC lasted less than two turns. As the year drew to a close, winter returned to Westeros with a vengeance. On the last day of the year, snow began to fall upon King’s Landing, and a crust of ice formed atop the Blackwater Rush. The snowfall continued off and on for the best part of a fortnight, by which time the Blackwater was hard frozen, and icicles draped the roofs and gutters of every tower in the city.

As cold winds hammered the city, King Aerys II turned to his pyromancers, charging them to drive the winter off with their magics. Huge green fires burned along the walls of the Red Keep for a moon’s turn. Prince Rhaegar was not in the city to observe them, however. Nor could he be found in Dragonstone with Princess Elia and their young son, Aegon. With the coming of the new year, the crown prince had taken to the road with half a dozen of his closest friends and confidants, on a journey that would ultimately lead him back to the riverlands. Not ten leagues from Harrenhal, Rhaegar fell upon Lyanna Stark of Winterfell, and carried her off, lighting a fire that would consume his house and kin and all those he loved—and half the realm besides.

But that tale is too well-known to warrant repeating here.

Ned's description of the tourney, IIRC, as well as Meera's and Jojen's version of the tale, suggests that it was indeed spring-like weather during the tourney itself, placing the tourney in those two months of False Spring. However, before those two months of False Spring, the weather would have been sping-like, and the change from spring to winter won't have happened overnight either.

"As the year drew to a close" can be taken rather loosely as well. And "winter returned", meaning, the transition period (if that's the correct term) from true spring weather to true winter weather, occured before.

In the end, on the last day of the year, it began to snow.. winter had already returned shortly before that.

Elia and Rhaegar were married in 280 AC, and Rhaenys was born in that same year, showing that Elia and Rhaegar were married in either January, February or March, and Rhaenys was born in either October, November, or December... The fact that Rhaenys was supposed to be three years old at her death during the Sack would suggest that the wedding took place in January (early in the month), and Rhaenys' birth in October (early to mid month).

Rhaenys' age is not the only reason for that, btw. After her birth, Elia went on a ± 6 month bed rest period. Rhaenys' birth in early October would mean that Elia's bedrest period ended around the start of April. We know from text that Aegon was born by the time Rhaegar left, really, really early in 282 AC. The problem is, that from April to December we already have nine full months... needed for Aegon's pregnancy.

Naturally, Elia's bedrest won't have been exactly 6 months.. perhaps it was 5,5.. perhaps it was even only 5.. Did both her pregnancies last 9 months? I will assume so, until it is stated otherwise. But for Aegon to have been born before Rhaegar leaves, there is only little time..

Which means that Elia must have gotten pregnant with Aegon around the end of March, start of April, in 281 AC, in order to give birth by the last few weeks of 281 AC/first few weeks of 282 AC.

From here, I have to speculate, but I thought it might be possible that the comet seen the night of Aegon's conception was when Rhaegar and Elia had travelled to King's Landing on their way to Harrenhal.. Which could have led Rhaegar to believe she was pregnant, before Elia even knew it herself.. it will take some time to reach Harrenhal, and as you said, Elia most likely wouldn't have (been allowed to) travell(ed) if she had been in the last few months of her pregnancy.

The way I see it, the Tourney itself would have taken place around May or June.. Elia's pregnancy at an early enough stage to not be known to Westeros, allowing her the freedom to travel. I agree that, had Elia been known to be pregnant at the tourney, a mention would most likely have been made by now (it would add a rather big layer to the insult done to Elia, yet not even Yandel mentions such). And "as the year drew to a close" can still take up a few months, where the weather slowly became colder again, the days a bit shorter, and such..

The SSM concerning Aegon's age at the Sack (12 to 14 months), does seem to have become outdated. Aegon was born in the final weeks (perhaps even days) of 281 AC or the first few weeks (days) of 282 AC.. Depending on how literal "With the coming of the new year" should be taken (I've asked native speakers on the small question's thread, and they told me that "with the coming of the new year" should be taken as "when the year began", and not "a few weeks after the year began", for example). And yet, the Sack has been placed to have occured around the 8th or 9th month of the year 283 AC, which would make Aegon roughly 20 or 21 months old at his supposed death.

TWOIAF holds no direct quote for the amount of time that passed between Rhaegar leaving KL, and Lyanna disappearing.

With the coming of the new year, the crown prince had taken to the road with half a dozen of his closest friends and confidants, on a journey that would ultimately lead him back to the riverlands. Not ten leagues from Harrenhal, Rhaegar fell upon Lyanna Stark of Winterfell, and carried her off, lighting a fire that would consume his house and kin and all those he loved—and half the realm besides.

All we know is when Rhaegar left on his trip, and that he eventually would find himself ten leagues from Harrenhal, where he met Lyanna again. No passage of time described there..

But I thought of something that might clear it a bit. Very slightly, though, I’m not speaking about weeks and days, but early or late in the year, a matter of months, so perhaps it can actually work to sketch a rough picture of some missing information.

Petyr Baelish is the key here. He was “still shy of 30” in 298 AC. Catelyn recalls his duel against Brandon as him having been “scarcely 15”, but, as should be rather obvious, that is impossible. (The annoying thing is, Catelyn is the source for all three of the pieces of info on LF’s age that we have). We also know that Petyr was younger than Lysa (in other words, not born in the same year). Catelyn was born in 264 AC, Lysa in 266 AC or 267 AC. Petyr thus at least a year later than Lysa.

Still shy of 30 makes Petyr 29 in 298 AC, with the possibility that he would turn 30 later on. Which would place his birth in 268 AC. Brandon Stark duelled Petyr when he was 20, and with his birth in 262 AC, this duel was in either 282 AC or 283 AC. We know that by 283 AC, Brandon was dead. So, the duel is firlmy established as having occurred in 282 AC.

Petyr being “scarcely 15” is then impossible. Being 15 in 282 AC would make him either 14 turning 15 (placing his birth in 267 AC) or 15 turning 16 (placing his birth in 266 AC). Neither one of these agrees with LF being 29 (or younger) in 298 AC, so I’ve asked around with native speakers and I’ve been told that “scarcely 15” could, if necessary, be taken to mean that he was still 14 (and with Catelyn rounding it up in her memory). I’ve also been told that “still shy of thirthy” could in no circumstance be taken as someone being 30 years old already (but that one wasn’t much of a surprise). Until LF’s age is clarified (which might even happen, with Sansa and LF together now), or until someone provides a better explanation, I’m sticking with this one.

So the duel took place in 282 AC, and LF was already 14, as per his birth in 268 AC. That would place the duel after his nameday. In AGOT, however, his nameday, when Catelyn arrives in KL, has not yet passed (according to her). While we can’t be certain about when exactly Catelyn arrives in KL, we can make a minimum estimation:

• Counting from Joffreys nameday, Jon Arryn died a fortnight later.
• While we don’t know how long it took Robert to gather everyone and be ready to get on the road (some time, as Cersei and the kids were not actually in KL when Jon Arryn died, and thus, technically, they could have already been a 14-day travel away from KL), the time that Robert travels to Winterfell falls roughly around 1,75 months (taken the app’s “it takes 8 days to get from Winterfell to the Barrowlands”, and the book’s “it was a fortnight from the ruby fort to KL” and “they were 12 days crossing the Neck” and comparing that to the distance not yet covered, 1,75 months is roughly what you get for the entire trip).
• Robert stays at Winterfell about a month (a few days after he arrived, Ned decides to go south and it will take a fortnight to get everything in order; the last day Bran falls, and Catelyn is near his bed nearly a fortnight when Ned eventually leaves, bringing the total to roughly a month).
• When Catelyn arrives in KL, Renly and Barristan have already left for Robert (and they’ll meet Robert at the Ruby Fort, about a fortnight away from KL for a larger group, so probably a slightly shorter travel for a few men alone), which would place Catelyn’s arrival at KL about 1 month, probably slightly more (but let’s use 1 month here to count easier), after Ned and all left Winterfell.

That brings us to 0,5 + 1,75 + 1 1 = 4,25 months at least (let it be clear from text that we are at that point slightly more weeks into the year) into the year, and LF’s nameday has yet to occur.

Which would then suggest that the duel LF had with Brandon took place at least 4,25 months into the year 282 AC, as there, his nameday had already passed.

After the duel, LF was hurt and moves away from Riverrun only after a fortnight. Brandon had left after the duel, and had not yet returned. Where Brandon exactly went, we don’t know, but he was next seen returning with Rickard and the wedding party of 200 men. On their way (from Winterfell) to Riverrun, Brandon heard about Lyanna. Therefore, Lyanna’s actual disappearance won’t have occurred too much earlier.

So this all tells us two things (and this is the whole point of it):

• The duel took place about midway in the year, showing that:
  • Brandon most likely did not travel from Harrenhal to Riverrun, as that would place him at Riverrun about a year earlier.
  • That Brandon most likely did travel from Riverrun to Winterfell after the duel, to pick up Rickard and his men (something which I originally thought was slightly odd, but if this text remains canon, it does seem to point this way)
• Seeing as Rhaegar had left early in the year, picking up Lyanna most likely not have been his main “mission” (for lack of a better word), as it wouldn’t take half a year to go get a girl who is that close to KL.

Of course, none of this is set in stone, as GRRM has admitted to not looking at a timeline all that close. But he does have people now who do that for him. And with Harrenhal and the Rebellion being such an important part of the overall story, which was obvious from the start, if anything had been roughly sketched out in GRRMs notes, I'd guess it would be the years 281-283 AC.

[SFDanny]

• Counting from Joffreys nameday, Jon Arryn died a fortnight later.
• While we don’t know how long it took Robert to gather everyone and be ready to get on the road (some time, as Cersei and the kids were not actually in KL when Jon Arryn died, and thus, technically, they could have already been a 14-day travel away from KL), the time that Robert travels to Winterfell falls roughly around 1,75 months (taken the app’s “it takes 8 days to get from Winterfell to the Barrowlands”, and the book’s “it was a fortnight from the ruby fort to KL” and “they were 12 days crossing the Neck” and comparing that to the distance not yet covered, 1,75 months is roughly what you get for the entire trip).
• Robert stays at Winterfell about a month (a few days after he arrived, Ned decides to go south and it will take a fortnight to get everything in order; the last day Bran falls, and Catelyn is near his bed nearly a fortnight when Ned eventually leaves, bringing the total to roughly a month).
• When Catelyn arrives in KL, Renly and Barristan have already left for Robert (and they’ll meet Robert at the Ruby Fort, about a fortnight away from KL for a larger group, so probably a slightly shorter travel for a few men alone), which would place Catelyn’s arrival at KL about 1 month, probably slightly more (but let’s use 1 month here to count easier), after Ned and all left Winterfell.

That brings us to 0,5 + 1,75 + 1 1 = 4,25 months at least (let it be clear from text that we are at that point slightly more weeks into the year) into the year, and LF’s nameday has yet to occur.

Which would then suggest that the duel LF had with Brandon took place at least 4,25 months into the year 282 AC, as there, his nameday had already passed.

After the duel, LF was hurt and moves away from Riverrun only after a fortnight. Brandon had left after the duel, and had not yet returned. Where Brandon exactly went, we don’t know, but he was next seen returning with Rickard and the wedding party of 200 men. On their way (from Winterfell) to Riverrun, Brandon heard about Lyanna. Therefore, Lyanna’s actual disappearance won’t have occurred too much earlier.

So this all tells us two things (and this is the whole point of it):

• The duel took place about midway in the year, showing that:
  • Brandon most likely did not travel from Harrenhal to Riverrun, as that would place him at Riverrun about a year earlier.
  • That Brandon most likely did travel from Riverrun to Winterfell after the duel, to pick up Rickard and his men (something which I originally thought was slightly odd, but if this text remains canon, it does seem to point this way)
• Seeing as Rhaegar had left early in the year, picking up Lyanna most likely not have been his main “mission” (for lack of a better word), as it wouldn’t take half a year to go get a girl who is that close to KL.

Of course, none of this is set in stone, as GRRM has admitted to not looking at a timeline all that close. But he does have people now who do that for him. And with Harrenhal and the Rebellion being such an important part of the overall story, which was obvious from the start, if anything had been roughly sketched out in GRRMs notes, I'd guess it would be the years 281-283 AC.

Great stuff, but a word of caution. You can't look at the text and count the number of days for the journey in 298 and think it applies to the time needed to travel in 281-282. At best, where we have no information whatsoever we can use such information for guesses, but Martin is notorious for not being consistent in these kind of travel times, and he has warned us to not to try and hold him to it. We know from the text Rhaegar sets out from King's Landing in the first month of 282 and the Kidnapping occurs during that time. We know, if the vision is true, that he is with Elia right after the birth of Aegon right before that. We know the duel has to take place when Brandon is 20 so that means a early 282 time frame at least so we must assume it is about the same time as the Kidnapping. Forget travel times or it all gets unworkable, I think. And Petyr's name day is sketchy at best. If I recall the quote from Cat, I'd have to look it up in my notes, but it speaks of him as "not yet thirty" or some such estimation. Could mean 29, could mean 28 but I don't think we know his age for sure. Oh, and by the way, where did you get the Tully girls ages? I'd love to nail their ages down, but I don't have exact ages for them. Sorry, for not being quite awake while I'm writing this, but woke up in the middle of the night and saw your post. Love the work, and I'm trying to revise old work on the same topics myself. The World of Ice and Fire throws all this stuff up in the air and changes old estimations.Compresses lots of things. For instance, Rhaegar's first month kidnapping of Lyanna and the Battle of the Trident date in 282 means the whole rebellion, except for the sack which comes in 283, is within 282. Less than a year for most of what we know of the events to have occurred. Most of the previous thinking had the start of the war being when Jon raises his banners in rebellion and going from 282 well into 283. I know EB's timeline had the sack in the ninth month or so of 283. Old assumptions have to be revised, and the word of the day is "compression", as in compression of the timelines. Anyway, those are my sleepy thoughts; back to bed. Great work.

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

Great stuff, but a word of caution. You can't look at the text and count the number of days for the journey in 298 and think it applies to the time needed to travel in 281-282. At best, where we have no information whatsoever we can use such information for guesses, but Martin is notorious for not being consistent in these kind of travel times, and he has warned us to not to try and hold him to it. We know from the text Rhaegar sets out from King's Landing in the first month of 282 and the Kidnapping occurs during that time. We know, if the vision is true, that he is with Elia right after the birth of Aegon right before that. We know the duel has to take place when Brandon is 20 so that means a early 282 time frame at least so we must assume it is about the same time as the Kidnapping. Forget travel times or it all gets unworkable, I think. And Petyr's name day is sketchy at best. If I recall the quote from Cat, I'd have to look it up in my notes, but it speaks of him as "not yet thirty" or some such estimation. Could mean 29, could mean 28 but I don't think we know his age for sure. Oh, and by the way, where did you get the Tully girls ages? I'd love to nail their ages down, but I don't have exact ages for them. Sorry, for not being quite awake while I'm writing this, but woke up in the middle of the night and saw your post. Love the work, and I'm trying to work on the same topics myself. The World of Ice and Fire throws all this stuff up in the air and changes old estimations.Compresses lots of things. For instance, Rhaegar's first month kidnapping of Lyanna and the Battle of the Trident date in 282 means the whole rebellion, except for the sack which comes in 283, is within 282. Less than a year for most of what we know of the events to have occurred. Most of the previous thinking had the start of the war being when Jon raises his banners in rebellion and going from 282 well into 283. I know EB's timeline had the sack in the ninth month or so of 283. Old assumptions have to be revised, and the word of the day is "compression", as in compression of the timelines. Anyway, those are my sleepy thoughts; back to bed. Great work.

Ah, no no... I don't use the travel time of 298 to determine travel time in 281/282.... I used the travel time from 298 to determine the minimum time until we see LF, whose nameday has not yet passed. He is not yet 30 when in front of Cat, so he is 29 or younger. But he can't be younger than 29, otherwise there is no reason for Cat to call him scarcely 15 in 282 AC. (298-29= 269 AC. If LF wad any younger, his birth would have occurred later, and it would become impossible for him to have had the right age during the duel).

Rhaegar doesn't kidnapp Lyanna in the first month... At least, not that is supported by text. LF's nameday had passed by the time of the duel, and hasn't passed yet a few months into the year, so the duel took place a bit later. Brandon learnt of Lyanna a while after the duel (how much longer after the duel is unknown). The Battle of the Bells definitely occurs in 283 AC. I saw nothing in the World Book suggesting otherwise, but plenty of clues in the other books that point to 283 AC.

For the ages of the Tully girls, I wrote it all down here: http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Years_after_Aegon%27s_Conquest/Calculations_Ages

Catelyn: http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Years_after_Aegon%27s_Conquest/Calculations_Ages#Catelyn_Tully

Lysa: http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Years_after_Aegon%27s_Conquest/Calculations_Ages_(Continued2)#Lysa_Tully

Petyr: http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Years_after_Aegon%27s_Conquest/Calculations_Ages_(Continued2)#Petyr_Baelish

Could be I missed a character here or there, but most for who it is possible should be in there :) the accompanying thread is in my. signature

[Moondancer]

Alia of the Knife,

I think that the possessive form in regards to Lyanna speaks of familiarity, intimacy and common knowledge among the people close to Rhaegar, not disrespect.

As to Sansa, it is good to notice that the losing party usually gathers no regard, especially not among the KL adders. However, referring to her as Winterfell's daughter is informal yet reverent, in my opinion.

Rhaenys_Targaryen,

You're good with timelines - would you say there's more than a month between Rhaegar's death and ToJ showdown?

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

Rhaenys_Targaryen,

You're good with timelines - would you say there's more than a month between Rhaegar's death and ToJ showdown?

Logically speaking, yes. TWOIAF seems to suggest that two weeks passed between the Trident and the Sack, and Ned would first need to travel to SE, before going further south.

However, I can't predict whether GRRM has kept Neds travel time into account. If GRRM wants Ned to have made the journey from KL to ToJ in roughly 2 weeks, he made that journey in those 2 weeks..

[Moondancer]

Rhaenys_Targaryen,

"However, I can't predict whether GRRM has kept Neds travel time into account. If GRRM wants Ned to have made the journey from KL to ToJ in roughly 2 weeks, he made that journey in those 2 weeks.."

Yes, my sentiments exactly. >_< I suspect the same for Lyanna's labour - as long as necessary.

[BearQueen87]

Couldn't it really just be the fan base that conflates Asharas role?

I mean, her whole purpose really is a front for Lyanna, and possibly add some nuanced conflict for Ned and Brandons relationship.

Robert said he never loved his brothers, so I wonder if that isn't true for Ned as well on some level, even though he honored Brandons memory?

I actually would also be surprised if Brandon liked Robert, this "poncy" southron lord Ned fixed their sister up with, and who is a little too much like him.

Possibly but didn't GRRM once say that the TV show would eventually have to deal with "R, L and Ashara" The first two make absolute sense. The third not so much unless there she is quite important to RLJ somehow.

Lewyn had come to KL with Elia, but was close to Rhaegar:

The Dornishmen who had come to court with the Princess Elia were in the prince's confidence as well, particularly Prince Lewyn Martell, Elia's uncle and a Sworn Brother of the Kingsguard.

Though I personally think that whoever Rhaegar took with him, by the time Lyanna disappeared, it was only Dayne and Whent who were left with the prince.

Yes I agree with that. The others were sent off on some mission.

Oh by the way, has anyone talked about how Rhaegar's party consisted of seven men? Almost makes you wonder if Lyanna might have had a couple of traveling companions.

I agree she probably had companions would total would equal 7--that number is all over RLJ. I'm just not sure it would be anyone we would know.

Such as Howland and Ashara?

Wouldn't Howland tell Ned that his sister wasn't really abducted?

[Alia of the knife]

Alia of the Knife,

I think that the possessive form in regards to Lyanna speaks of familiarity, intimacy and common knowledge among the people close to Rhaegar, not disrespect.

As to Sansa, it is good to notice that the losing party usually gathers no regard, especially not among the KL adders. However, referring to her as Winterfell's daughter is informal yet reverent, in my opinion.

Rhaenys_Targaryen,

You're good with timelines - would you say there's more than a month between Rhaegar's death and ToJ showdown?

Yes, the KL courtiers still "gave Sansa her due," though she was disgraced.

As for Dany, she never knew Rhaegar, and got her tales from Viserys.

To not recognize another noble by their title, and in this case, refer to her in the common vernacular "girl," or "Rhaegars northern girl," rather than the lady Lyanna, is disrespectful.

[Mithras]

Wouldn't Howland tell Ned that his sister wasn't really abducted?

I don't think R and L decided to run away as soon as they met near Harrenhal. That decision might have come later, well after Howland left. So, Howland might have been quite shocked to hear that R and L didnot do the thing they decided to do during the meeting and instead they ran away. So, even Howland might have suspected that whether Rhaegar really kidnapped her.

[Alia of the knife]

Possibly but didn't GRRM once say that the TV show would eventually have to deal with "R, L and Ashara" The first two make absolute sense. The third not so much unless there she is quite important to RLJ somehow.

I could be wrong because the snow is slowly driving me mad, but I had thought he said that they would have to deal with just R&L.

[sj4iy]

Man, I didn't realize a noble lady like Ashara slept around so much. Especially since the text never mentions her having more than one lover named STARK.