TrueOrFalse Posted March 3, 2015 Share Posted March 3, 2015 People are sensibly re-evaluating the text based on the information provided. Looking whether things are supported or ditched based on the books written. People who previously thought that GRRM would never in a million years go there are now forced to accept he at least considered it and look again. No one has changed everything they believed in. I'd love to believe that no one has changed what they believed in but I have seen people saying silly things like "Well, obviously Sansa isn't as important as we thought because she wasn't one of the Big 5 in the original letter." and "The Greyjoy's and Martell's must not be important because they weren't mentioned in the original letter." :rolleyes: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mladen Posted March 3, 2015 Share Posted March 3, 2015 People are sensibly re-evaluating the text based on the information provided. Looking whether things are supported or ditched based on the books written. People who previously thought that GRRM would never in a million years go there are now forced to accept he at least considered it and look again. No one has changed everything they believed in. No, that is not re-evaluation of the text, That is looking at the story through the lenses of discarded story. There is a huge difference. Now, every hug, every kiss, every memory is romantic where yesterday was normal brother/sister relationship. And, also, we are not speaking about SAME characters here. Just as Sansa, Dany, Jaime, Tyrion etc are not the same, the Jon and Arya from the series are most certainly not the Jon and Arya from the draft. That is something what this "re-evaluation" is omitting. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LordStoneheart Posted March 3, 2015 Share Posted March 3, 2015 Since Cat acted like a mean bitch towards Jon, this could have been her tasting of her own medicine. At the Wall, the roles are switched. Cat becomes the unwanted outsider. My paraphrasing was quite off. "But the men of the Night's Watch give up their families when they take the black, and Jon and Benjen will not be able to help, to Jon's anguish." It clearly would not have been a role switch if he's anguished about it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AryaNymeriaVisenya Posted March 3, 2015 Share Posted March 3, 2015 No, that is not re-evaluation of the text, That is looking at the story through the lenses of discarded story. There is a huge difference. Now, every hug, every kiss, every memory is romantic where yesterday was normal brother/sister relationship. And, also, we are not speaking about SAME characters here. Just as Sansa, Dany, Jaime, Tyrion etc are not the same, the Jon and Arya from the series are most certainly not the Jon and Arya from the draft. That is something what this "re-evaluation" is omitting. Here being the problem. This outline is for book 1 of 3. Now some parts are very different, some parts could never happen because there is no way characters are in the position to do them. EG. Jaime wont be king because he has made absolutely no moves to actually make this come about. He is not planning it at all. However if outline Jaime was meant to be king perhaps his twin will take the throne. Jaime was meant to kill all his family to get the throne, we know Cersei has been told all her children will pre-decease her. Some bits are more open to happening going forward in other ways. GRRM didn't scrap the entire story and start afresh! Rather, it seems he had a story and is fitting bits around it. So when Arya's story switched to the Riverlands, he needed Arya proxies up north to fill the plot he had in mind, hence Bran's travelling companion is Meera who is not your usual Westerosi lady. Jon and Dany seem very much the same. Sansa had the same arc in book one as she did in this outline, she just didn't have a baby. Talking about hugs and kisses is a very reductionist take on what is being said. That is actually the least persuasive. How about Ned saying twice in A Game of Thrones that Arya will be a Queen despite there being no other princely heirs to marry? I'd love to believe that no one has changed what they believed in but I have seen people saying silly things like "Well, obviously Sansa isn't as important as we thought because she wasn't one of the Big 5 in the original letter." and "The Greyjoy's and Martell's must not be important because they weren't mentioned in the original letter." :rolleyes: Well Sansa was never one of the biggest characters in the book. Cat has more POVs than Sansa and she died ages ago! What is more shocking is Bran's role vs his page count. Lots of Bran coming up I think. Sansa fans don't like the outline naturally, but it never actually says she dies. Just that she isn't one the 5 with plot armour. There are a lot of them using the outline and saying 'Its a Big 6', still looks like a big 5 to me, or a big 4 going by page count. As for the importance of the Greyjoys and Martells, they became important as the story got bigger, this is still book 1. But I wouldn't be surprised if they became less important as the story contracted towards the end. Of the 5 Greyjoys alive, all have a chance of a horrible death. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mithras Posted March 3, 2015 Share Posted March 3, 2015 The thing about the draft is that many current characters seem to be born from them. Draft-Arya gave birth to other characters like fArya, Shireen, a little bit of Meera, Alys Karstark and so on. LF definitely sprouted from the draft-Jaime. Stannis seems to be a branch of the draft-Tyrion. This does not surprise us because these two characters are the obvious Richard III (Shakespear version) parallels of this story. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Silverscream Posted March 3, 2015 Share Posted March 3, 2015 I'd like to point out here that a user from reddit actually went to Cushing Library last month and read part of the original 1993 manuscript. As of now they've yet to report back every difference they saw, but the main significant change they thought was too important to keep to themselves was Dany not receiving dragon eggs as a wedding gift. I'd imagine that if the manuscript included things such as Tyrion not being a dwarf or Cersei not existing or the even Jon/Arya dynamic being completely different, they'd rank just as high in significance to share. Then again, unless the poster comes back with another post about what they've learned or someone else does it there's no way we'd ever know for sure what was different and what's the same. Also, I don't understand the assumption that the Jon/Arya relationship became stronger only after GRRM decided to keep it completely platonic? Arya in the draft has Needle so there was probably still a scene where he gave it to her, unless she originally just found it under a rock or something. Not to mention, Jon/Arya isn't all that out of place in what GRRM likes in an incest pair considering Jaime/Cersei and Jaehaerys/Shaera, They were both very close before their relationships turned romantic. You may not like it, but things like Jon missing his nine year old sister more than his brother of the same age do actually make a lot of sense in terms of the draft. Even in ADWD, his reaction to learning Arya's alive and getting married to Ramsay is stronger than his to Bran/Rickon and Ygritte's deaths. I'm not trying to say it's still going to happen, but I don't think GRRM ended up shaking up the J/A dynamic all that much when it's still possibly the most important relationship in the series. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AryaNymeriaVisenya Posted March 3, 2015 Share Posted March 3, 2015 Ramsey is from Draft Tyrion too which makes me suspect that Jon is going to be the one to get him. Jon vs Tyrion over Arya has become Jon vs a dark reflection of himself over a fake Arya. All these things make me think that GRRM principally has a story, the characters fill out the story. The characters taking on minds of their own has made the story longer but not necessarily going to a different conclusion I'd like to point out here that a user from reddit actually went to Cushing Library last month and read part of the original 1993 manuscript. As of now they've yet to report back every difference they saw, but the main significant change they thought was too important to keep to themselves was Dany not receiving dragon eggs as a wedding gift. I'd imagine that if the manuscript included things such as Tyrion not being a dwarf or Cersei not existing or the even Jon/Arya dynamic being completely different, they'd rank just as high in significance to share. Then again, unless the poster comes back with another post about what they've learned or someone else does it there's no way we'd ever know for sure what was different and what's the same. Also, I don't understand the assumption that the Jon/Arya relationship became stronger only after GRRM decided to keep it completely platonic? Arya in the draft has Needle so there was probably still a scene where he gave it to her, unless she originally just found it under a rock or something. Not to mention, Jon/Arya isn't all that out of place in what GRRM likes in an incest pair considering Jaime/Cersei and Jaehaerys/Shaera, They were both very close before their relationships turned romantic. You may not like it, but things like Jon missing his nine year old sister more than his brother of the same age do actually make a lot of sense in terms of the draft. Even in ADWD, his reaction to learning Arya's alive and getting married to Ramsay is stronger than his to Bran/Rickon and Ygritte's deaths. I'm not trying to say it's still going to happen, but I don't think GRRM ended up shaking up the J/A dynamic all that much when it's still possibly the most important relationship in the series. We don't know if its still going to happen. Hence the analysis and discussion. So far the only real argument against it is that she's still so young but we also have to remember GRRM stated the 5 year gap was characters 'waiting around for Arya Stark to hit puberty'. So Arya's sexual maturity was important until A Storm of Swords at least. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
para Posted March 3, 2015 Share Posted March 3, 2015 The letter matters because it is new material and it gives us a fairly unguarded insight into GRRM's original end game. While it stands to reason that some of it won't matter anymore, it is actually highly likely that some of it will. That alone makes it worth discussing. It also pretty much makes R+L=J and Jon's survival nearly certain. Now I know that some people severely dislike the outline but that doesn't make it okay to discard it. For example: I don't like Jon/Arya but the argument that GRRM has still the same destination even though the route has changed is super solid. And thus I cannot dismiss it as crackpot anymore even though I might want to. Jon/Arya is not Occam's Razor but it's something that is not unlike it: It's the original plan. No theory opposing it is on firmer ground.The same can be said for everything else that theoretically still can happen, no matter how outrageous, i.e. Jaime the First of his Name. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BalerionTheCat Posted March 3, 2015 Share Posted March 3, 2015 BTW, I don't think we know when the lines have been redacted and why. Maybe what is behind is irrelevant now, or related in books already published. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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