Hoffa Posted March 4, 2015 Share Posted March 4, 2015 All had good reasons. What reason did Sansa have to rat out her father? "oh i want to stay in kl and marry a psychopath". Yea, good reason. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Errant Bard Posted March 4, 2015 Share Posted March 4, 2015 Does it have to be this complicated? Arya and Sansa have been through hell, and are now under FM/LF who demand that they change, and not in entirely healthy ways. I don't want Arya to turn into a FM any more than I want Sansa to turn into LF. Arya still has her wolf and her Needle, and might have an easier time resisting than Sansa, whose wolf is dead.But... even when they change, they still stay Starks, what is the problem here? I get the impression that some people do not want kid characters to grow up -and inevitably change in the process- so much that they construct in their discourse a binary state where the GOT character is good and a STARK and has his identity, while the same character actually maturing and affirming a personality, influenced by his environment means he's a copy of a bad guy, and has lost his identity. I cannot disagree more with that: the identity of a character is not mutable, and is not dependent on their personality, beliefs, affiliations or goals, which are mutable. Writing characters changing in accordance to what they experience from their environment is extremely good, I think, and this should not by caricatured into making those characters lose anything, least of all a "true identity". I find the idea of Sansa turning into LF laughable: not because she cannot become a manipulative political player, but because when she does so, she will still be Sansa Stark. Manipulative schemers come in all shapes, from Alys Kastark to Olenna Tyrell, and none is a LF clone. Even if Sansa has LF as a teacher, student usually don't turn into their teachers, they just... learn. Isn't that what you do when growing up anyway? Do you lose your identity as a member of your family after you finish university? Hmm. Arya becoming a FM: heh, I always wondered why it's worse than becoming a bride, an hostage, a swordswoman, a seashells seller, a maid or any other adult occupation. Sure it's not staying Ned's little girl with no goal in life, but she cannot stay a kid forever. It's like if you said, reading an hypothetical prequel: "I don't want Asha to turn into a reaver", "I don't want long Jeyne to turn into a vigilante", "I don't want Margaery to turn into LF", "I don't want sweet Lysa to turn into a bad regent", and somehow suggested they would not be Greyjoy/Heddle/Tyrell/Tully if they did. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harry the Hair Posted March 4, 2015 Share Posted March 4, 2015 All had good reasons. What reason did Sansa have to rat out her father? "oh i want to stay in kl and marry a psychopath". Yea, good reason. She didn't see it as "ratting out" her father. She wanted to stay in KL and she did it because she wanted to become a Queen herself. Cersei did quite a bit of stupid and evil things to become/stay a queen, that seemed to be a valid reason for her. Sansa was still just a naive child and had no idea what was going on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Errant Bard Posted March 4, 2015 Share Posted March 4, 2015 All had good reasons. What reason did Sansa have to rat out her father? "oh i want to stay in kl and marry a psychopath". Yea, good reason.Oh, right, a teenager willing to defy her parents for the boy she's so infatued in she cannot see his flaws is such a stretch. Oh, wait, no it is not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mladen Posted March 4, 2015 Share Posted March 4, 2015 All had good reasons. What reason did Sansa have to rat out her father? "oh i want to stay in kl and marry a psychopath". Yea, good reason. 1. Sansa didn't see that as ratting and 2. Her father was supportive of that marriage until one moment he wasn't. Look from her perspective. Her father never actually warns her about Joffrey's behavior and he is OK with her falling for him under his very nose. And I am waiting to see what Lyanna's "good reason" was. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mladen Posted March 4, 2015 Share Posted March 4, 2015 Tyrion is a really bad example considering he ended up wandering Essos as an exile. Lyanna died. Ned is dead. Robb is also dead. You are not setting a good precedent for your cause Mladen! You are missing the point. Is Tyrion any less Lannister after killing Tywin? Nope. Is Robb considered any less Stark after rejecting to negotiate for his sisters? Nope. Ned after killing Lady? Again, no. Lyanna after running with Rhaegar? She still remains ultimate role model for Stark women. So, even though they are dead, the readers never actually stop thinking of them as the Starks. Death is irrelevant here. It's circular reasoning to offer this as part of an argument for why Arya & Sansa are unlikely to change their identities when they are the only 2 we have seen challenged in such a way and the results are tbd. True, but even alone, the demonstrated strength of identity is exceptional. Sansa survived the constant beatings, rape threats and humiliations and she still has almost the same moral principles she had at the beginning. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dya of Oldstones Posted March 4, 2015 Share Posted March 4, 2015 Oh, right, a teenager willing to defy her parents for the boy she's so infatued in she cannot see his flaws is such a stretch. Oh, wait, no it is not. Not to mention, she's not even a teenager yet, she's only 11 at the time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hoffa Posted March 4, 2015 Share Posted March 4, 2015 She didn't see it as "ratting out" her father. She wanted to stay in KL and she did it because she wanted to become a Queen herself. Cersei did quite a bit of stupid and evil things to become/stay a queen, that seemed to be a valid reason for her. Sansa was still just a naive child and had no idea what was going on. I don't buy in to this "naive child". Sansa clearly knew who she was dealing with. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Selig Posted March 4, 2015 Share Posted March 4, 2015 All had good reasons. What reason did Sansa have to rat out her father? "oh i want to stay in kl and marry a psychopath". Yea, good reason. Getting married to the future king who she thought was also the love of her life. How is that not an excellent reason? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harry the Hair Posted March 4, 2015 Share Posted March 4, 2015 I don't buy in to this "naive child". Sansa clearly knew who she was dealing with. You know that you're talking about an eleven year old right? All Sansa knew at the time was that the Queens are always noble, beautiful and kind... which is what her parents taught her btw. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colonel Green Posted March 4, 2015 Share Posted March 4, 2015 If you recall Myranda Royce said that her father tried to arrange a match for Mya Stone, but she refused, so bastards do have some power here. Mya has the same power anybody else has: the power to say no. Nestor wasn't trying to arrange a political match, just to find a guardsman or whatever. There was no meaningful pressure on her to go along. The only people with any sort of social authority to try to make Sansa marry anyone, customarily, would be Bran or Rickon, whichever ends up being lord of her house. Does that seem likely? Another bonus would be that she wouldn't have to deal with the whole unpleasantness of dissolving her marriage to Tyrion; remember Sansa's wanted for regicide and the current High Septon isn't the most cooperative of lads. Alayne is single and has never been near KL. The current High Septon is almost certainly going to die, so why would that matter? I don't buy in to this "naive child". Sansa clearly knew who she was dealing with. Um, no, she didn't. That's rather obvious from her POVs, where she doggedly clings to the idea that Cersei and Joffrey are good and the whole situation is a big misunderstanding that she can fix right up until her father is executed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Selig Posted March 4, 2015 Share Posted March 4, 2015 You know that you're talking about an eleven year old right? All Sansa knew at the time was that the Queens are always noble, beautiful and kind... which is what her parents taught her btw. They did? I highly doubt that. Ned had hated the Lannisters since before Sansa was born and Cat would never teach her children something such nonsense. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harry the Hair Posted March 4, 2015 Share Posted March 4, 2015 Mya has the same power anybody else has: the power to say no. Nestor wasn't trying to arrange a political match, just to find a guardsman or whatever. There was no meaningful pressure on her to go along. The only people with any sort of social authority to try to make Sansa marry anyone, customarily, would be Bran or Rickon, whichever ends up being lord of her house. Does that seem likely? The current High Septon is almost certainly going to die, so why would that matter? 1) The odds of a noblewoman getting pressured in to a marriage are higher than those of a bastard. Alayne isn't too highborn to marry anyone so her circle of suitors is wider then. 2) The current High Septon is currently alive and well; he even manged to imprison the Queen... doesn't sound like the faith is going down any time soon. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harry the Hair Posted March 4, 2015 Share Posted March 4, 2015 They did? I highly doubt that. Ned had hated the Lannisters since before Sansa was born and Cat would never teach her children something such nonsense. It had to have come from somewhere; either way, her parents never told her anything otherwise. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hoffa Posted March 4, 2015 Share Posted March 4, 2015 Um, no, she didn't. That's rather obvious from her POVs, where she doggedly clings to the idea that Cersei and Joffrey are good and the whole situation is a big misunderstanding that she can fix right up until her father is executed. Cersei who demanded the head of her pet? Yea, she's a real sweetheart. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harry the Hair Posted March 4, 2015 Share Posted March 4, 2015 Cersei who demanded the head of her pet? Yea, she's a real sweetheart. Her dad killed Lady btw. So the way she saw it at the time is that Arya gets everything, and she, the good-obedient daughter, gets punished for things that Arya does. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hoffa Posted March 4, 2015 Share Posted March 4, 2015 It had to have come from somewhere; either way, her parents never told her anything otherwise. She lived in KL for a while and both Joff and Cersei showed psychopathic tendencies and she really should have picked up on that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hoffa Posted March 4, 2015 Share Posted March 4, 2015 Her dad killed Lady btw. So the way she saw it at the time is that Arya gets everything, and she, the good-obedient daughter, gets punished for things that Arya does. I never said she actually swing the sword. I said she demanded it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colonel Green Posted March 4, 2015 Share Posted March 4, 2015 1) The odds of a noblewoman getting pressured in to a marriage are higher than those of a bastard. Alayne isn't too highborn to marry anyone so her circle of suitors is wider then. 2) The current High Septon is currently alive and well; he even manged to imprison the Queen... doesn't sound like the faith is going down any time soon. 1) I addressed that, seeing as the only people who can pressure her into marriage are her younger brothers. Moreover, if Rickon or whoever becomes Lord of Winterfell, Sansa would most likely be one of the major influences on him as he grows up. No threat there. 2) Irrelevant, seeing as we're not discussing right now. We're talking about the end of the story, where the High Septon is probably incinerated when Cersei blows up King's Landing. Cersei who demanded the head of her pet? Yea, she's a real sweetheart. We're not debating whether her belief was sensible (or even, for that matter, especially plausible in terms of character; I've always found that one of GRRM's less-convincing character details). The point is that she had it, and you would have to completely disregard Sansa's own POVs to believe otherwise. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
James Arryn Posted March 4, 2015 Share Posted March 4, 2015 You know that you're talking about an eleven year old right? All Sansa knew at the time was that the Queens are always noble, beautiful and kind... which is what her parents taught her btw.What did her aunt, uncles, grandfather and bastard brother teach her?I can buy Sansa as wilfully ignorant. I think her greatest sin is being a typical teen in a story about/family of atypical children. But you can't argue that she wasn't surrounded by information about the harsh realities of life; her home is literally built on top of a family grave. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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