Sansa is not a Stark

[Colonel Green]

What did her aunt, uncles, grandfather and bastard brother teach her?

I can buy Sansa as wilfully ignorant. I think her greatest sin is being a typical teen in a story about/family of atypical children. But you can't argue that she wasn't surrounded by information about the harsh realities of life; her home is literally built on top of a family grave.

You don't have to be willfully ignorant to believe things that are inconsistent with other details you know about on some level. Her parents, tutors and society taught her a certain way and she adopted that (and buying into the central tenets of society is the big part of Sansa's worldview).

Now, once she'd bought into that worldview, her attempts to reconcile that with dissonant events could take on a form of self-deception, in terms of clinging to the bill of goods she'd been sold (for obvious reasons, since it's a very attractive bill).

[Hoffa]

You don't have to be willfully ignorant to believe things that are inconsistent with other details you know about on some level. Her parents, tutors and society taught her a certain way and she adopted that (and buying into the central tenets of society is the big part of Sansa's worldview).

Now, once she'd bought into that worldview, her attempts to reconcile that with dissonant events could take on a form of self-deception, in terms of clinging to the bill of goods she'd been sold (for obvious reasons, since it's a very attractive bill).

Arya had them pegged pretty fast.

[kimim]

Not quite. Arya's change is on more deeper psychological level. FM are literally trying to turn her into "No one" while LF is role-playing with Sansa. Arya's PTSD is a fertile soil for such change, while Sansa might prove to be more resilient. At the end, I doubt either FM or LF will be successful. Stark kids showed extraordinary resilience to changing or forgetting their identities.

I hope so, as I like them both. Also, yes, Arya's hell has been horrific, and she needs Nymeria and Needle if she is to resist FM. There has to be some point to Sasa's loss, though. The wolves appeared magically, right number, right gender. It's almost as if they were meant to accompany the Stark kids, so losing one has to have consequences.

[James Arryn]

You don't have to be willfully ignorant to believe things that are inconsistent with other details you know about on some level.

That's almost a good working definition of willful ignorance, imo.

Her parents, tutors and society taught her a certain way and she adopted that (and buying into the central tenets of society is the big part of Sansa's worldview).

Not sure I can agree with this. Ned says 'Winter is Coming' almost as punctuation. She is raised in the same society as her siblings, none of whom seem anywhere near as selective. Bran has romantic aspirations, but it doesn't go so far as blinding him to what he'd prefer to not see. Old Nan loves telling stories about death and monsters and betrayal. Her father goes off to chop off heads every so often. Her mother openly resents the evidence of what Ned did in the war. Etc.

I'd agree she IS fed a lot of romance, but only a choice can make it a steady diet in her situation.

Edit: also, personally speaking, Sansa being who she is as a result of a combination of factors including personal choice and temperament is a much more interesting narrative than her being the unconscious bi-product of fairy tales.

[Colonel Green]

Arya had them pegged pretty fast.

And? Arya and Sansa are different people, with completely different views and experiences of Westerosi social norms and gender roles.

That's almost a good working definition of willful ignorance, imo.

"Willful" indicates purposefully ignoring other things, which I don't think Sansa did, at first. Critical thinking is a skill you develop gradually.

Not sure I can agree with this. Ned says 'Winter is Coming' almost as punctuation. She is raised in the same society as her siblings, none of whom seem anywhere near as selective. Bran has romantic aspirations, but it doesn't go so far as blinding him to what he'd prefer to not see. Old Nan loves telling stories about death and monsters and betrayal. Her father goes off to chop off heads every so often. Her mother openly resents the evidence of what Ned did in the war. Etc.

I'd agree she IS fed a lot of romance, but only a choice can make it a steady diet in her situation.

Edit: also, personally speaking, Sansa being who she is as a result of a combination of factors including personal choice and temperament is a much more interesting narrative than her being the unconscious bi-product of fairy tales.

I don't disagree with the general idea that it's a combination, but each person experiences things differently, and it's worth noting that Sansa's whole education is geared very differently from her brothers, by comparison (no mandatory field trips to witness executions, for starters).

[Mladen]

Not sure I can agree with this. Ned says 'Winter is Coming' almost as punctuation. She is raised in the same society as her siblings, none of whom seem anywhere near as selective. Bran has romantic aspirations, but it doesn't go so far as blinding him to what he'd prefer to not see. Old Nan loves telling stories about death and monsters and betrayal. Her father goes off to chop off heads every so often. Her mother openly resents the evidence of what Ned did in the war. Etc.

Oh, you mean Ned wasn't being delusional about who Robert is, despite all Cat's talk, or that Arya wasn't also deluding herself about her being just as any other Jane Do of the Brotherhood (until of course they taught her she isn't). Robb wasn't deluding himself that everything would be OK with Freys? I mean, Sansa trusting Cersei and not seeing the malice is not that far from what many members of her family did.

I hope so, as I like them both. Also, yes, Arya's hell has been horrific, and she needs Nymeria and Needle if she is to resist FM. There has to be some point to Sasa's loss, though. The wolves appeared magically, right number, right gender. It's almost as if they were meant to accompany the Stark kids, so losing one has to have consequences.

Certainly. But, we can even argue that it did have a consequence. Sansa was left alone, surrounded by enemies, lone she-wolf without any pack.

[Harry the Hair]

1) I addressed that, seeing as the only people who can pressure her into marriage are her younger brothers. Moreover, if Rickon or whoever becomes Lord of Winterfell, Sansa would most likely be one of the major influences on him as he grows up. No threat there.

2) Irrelevant, seeing as we're not discussing right now. We're talking about the end of the story, where the High Septon is probably incinerated when Cersei blows up King's Landing.

We're not debating whether her belief was sensible (or even, for that matter, especially plausible in terms of character; I've always found that one of GRRM's less-convincing character details). The point is that she had it, and you would have to completely disregard Sansa's own POVs to believe otherwise.

1) Sansa might feel pressured by fellow bannermen. And to refuse them and marry someone of low birth can be viewed as an insult. Going back to my original point; Sansa says that everyone will only want to marry her for her claim, no one would marry her for love. Alayne Stone stands a better chance of getting married for love.

2) The current High Septon matters because while he's alive and Sansa isn't proven innocent she has to remain hidden... and who knows for how long that would last.

[Ser Pounce FTW]

Oh, you mean Ned wasn't being delusional about who Robert is, despite all Cat's talk, or that Arya wasn't also deluding herself about her being just as any other Jane Do of the Brotherhood (until of course they taught her she isn't). Robb wasn't deluding himself that everything would be OK with Freys? I mean, Sansa trusting Cersei and not seeing the malice is not that far from what many members of her family did.

Ned thinking he knew his friend isn't delusional. What's more, once he saw how Robert behaved at the Trident, he was no longer under the impression that Robert would automatically side with him or follow his council. Also Arya hoping to hide out with the Brotherhood is far from delusional. How many people would they come across who woudl recognize her? But, yes, Robb was definitely not thinking when he assumed he could smooth things over with the Freys. I suppose the only defense for his actions is he didn't really know Walder Frey but even that is a weak defense. No one would settle for the Lord of the Riverlands if they were promised the King of the North and Riverlands.

Having said that, I agree with all of this:

Not sure I can agree with this. Ned says 'Winter is Coming' almost as punctuation. She is raised in the same society as her siblings, none of whom seem anywhere near as selective. Bran has romantic aspirations, but it doesn't go so far as blinding him to what he'd prefer to not see. Old Nan loves telling stories about death and monsters and betrayal. Her father goes off to chop off heads every so often. Her mother openly resents the evidence of what Ned did in the war. Etc.

I'd agree she IS fed a lot of romance, but only a choice can make it a steady diet in her situation.

Edit: also, personally speaking, Sansa being who she is as a result of a combination of factors including personal choice and temperament is a much more interesting narrative than her being the unconscious bi-product of fairy tales.

Even though she was raised to be a genteel lady, she does seem extremely unconnected to the harsher tone of the North in a way that is hard to explain. I think Martin was too eager to have her be different from the others in this. It is a bit hard to believe that she could be so oblivious to life not being a song and that winter was always coming when no one else in Winterfell is. Even Cat who was reared in the South seems to understand the North is a different beast and acts accordingly. She should have been more aware of what was around her. I agree she willfully chooses to ignore it because of personal choice and temperment.

[Harry the Hair]

But you can't argue that she wasn't surrounded by information about the harsh realities of life; her home is literally built on top of a family grave.

She knew what her father's duties were and what was expected of a lady and a dutiful wife. If you read Cat's thoughts about her she says that Sansa was a lady at the age of 3 and was always eager to please. And Tyrion says that she is nothing if not dutiful, clearly all her education was directed towards being an obedient wife. No harsh realities of life were taught here. As for her home being built on top of a family grave... all that teaches is that all men must die.

[Alayne's Shadow.]

She knew what her father's duties were and what was expected of a lady and a dutiful wife. If you read Cat's thoughts about her she says that Sansa was a lady at the age of 3 and was always eager to please. And Tyrion says that she is nothing if not dutiful, clearly all her education was directed towards being an obedient wife. No harsh realities of life were taught here. As for her home being built on top of a family grave... all that teaches is that all men must die.

Moreover, I highly doubt Ned had started 'Family History' lessons by stating everything that had happened the generation before. I think it's rather obvious the Stark children are sheltered to a high degree: That explains Arya's wild behavior, Sansa's dreams of Princes and Queens, Bran's Knightly Goals, Jon's romantic views on the Night's Watch and Robb's political naiveté. I don't think Ned and Cat were "bad" parents - I just don't think they were expecting their children to go on the journeys they eventually went.

[Avlonnic]

Fair warning : Mladen is coming

That was just excellent. I actually snorted out loud.

[Harry the Hair]

Moreover, I highly doubt Ned had started 'Family History' lessons by stating everything that had happened the generation before. I think it's rather obvious the Stark children are sheltered to a high degree: That explains Arya's wild behavior, Sansa's dreams of Princes and Queens, Bran's Knightly Goals, Jon's romantic views on the Night's Watch and Robb's political naiveté. I don't think Ned and Cat were "bad" parents - I just don't think they were expecting their children to go on the journeys they eventually went.

:agree:

[Liz Stark-Targaryen]

Totally disagree with the OP's choice to steal take an entire essay from another site and start a thread here with it, instead of linking it and then using it as a springboard to add their own content. Bad form, and rude to lay all these accusations and charges against an essay writer who isn't here to defend or discuss what she's written. If it had been my Tumblr post plagiarized copied like that, I'd be quite angry. Childish, rude, and wrong to do this.

Of course, Sansa is a Stark. I follow the person who actually wrote that meta, and she's a Stark fan. One of my favorite essays by her is about how Arya and Sansa are both essential to the story, and that wars between Sansa and Arya fans are silly.

Context is everything.

[AryaNymeriaVisenya]

You know that you're talking about an eleven year old right? All Sansa knew at the time was that the Queens are always noble, beautiful and kind... which is what her parents taught her btw.

I think you are looking at Mordane's stupidity there. See how sycophantic she was to Myrcella?

[Colonel Green]

1) Sansa might feel pressured by fellow bannermen. And to refuse them and marry someone of low birth can be viewed as an insult. Going back to my original point; Sansa says that everyone will only want to marry her for her claim, no one would marry her for love. Alayne Stone stands a better chance of getting married for love.

2) The current High Septon matters because while he's alive and Sansa isn't proven innocent she has to remain hidden... and who knows for how long that would last.

1) By the time this story ends, after the zombie apocalypse, etc, I think the surviving Starks (and everybody else) will have far more significant things to focus on, and Sansa will have more than enough clout to just say no. Nobody can force her. It's not a meaningful consideration.

2) The High Septon is just one political actor among many. She's not hiding from him, in particular; she's hiding from the Lannister regime. And, again, irrelevant to the series' endgame, particularly when she'll most likely be in the North and nobody will care about who killed Joffrey anymore, with his whole regime overthrown.

[AryaNymeriaVisenya]

Nor will anyone in the North care about the High Septon except the Manderleys. Maybe Bran could talk through the tree and annul it. If she wanted to go south, there is always Hoster Blackwood to marry her without the High Septon's annulment.

[Harry the Hair]

1) By the time this story ends, after the zombie apocalypse, etc, I think the surviving Starks (and everybody else) will have far more significant things to focus on, and Sansa will have more than enough clout to just say no. Nobody can force her. It's not a meaningful consideration.

2) The High Septon is just one political actor among many. She's not hiding from him, in particular; she's hiding from the Lannister regime. And, again, irrelevant to the series' endgame, particularly when she'll most likely be in the North and nobody will care about who killed Joffrey anymore, with his whole regime overthrown.

1) We don't know that. By the time the story ends the North might be devastated with very little food supplies left for Winter, Sansa Stark would then need to marry out of duty and for the good of her people.

2) I agree that he's just a political actor amongst many. And ultimately the faith will be appeased but we really don't know when that would happen. Thus far they've only been getting stronger so it's not unreasonable to assume they'll hang in there for quite a while. For all we know a Westrosi style inquisition might be coming.

I'm not saying that this will happen; I'm just suggesting what Lady's death may have foreshadowed. Lady's death may have simply been used to kick start Sansa's breaking away from her father and siblings thus prompting her to turn to the Queen when an escape plan was being hatched.

[SacredOrderOfGreenMen]

This thread needs be locked, first because it's a total misreading of that meta, second because it doesn't even appear that the poster asked permission of the writer, and three because this whole conversations is the kind of trash that needs be banned from the worg.

[kimim]

...

Even though she was raised to be a genteel lady, she does seem extremely unconnected to the harsher tone of the North in a way that is hard to explain. I think Martin was too eager to have her be different from the others in this. It is a bit hard to believe that she could be so oblivious to life not being a song and that winter was always coming when no one else in Winterfell is. Even Cat who was reared in the South seems to understand the North is a different beast and acts accordingly. She should have been more aware of what was around her. I agree she willfully chooses to ignore it because of personal choice and temperment.

Ned and Cat are not Tywin. They respect their kids, especially Ned, who goes so far as to get Arya a dancing master. Cat later thinks sadly of telling Sansa that there'd be song and music at KL, that Ned would get her a teacher for the high harp. She had respected Sansa's fantasies, and embellished them.

Sansa is not the only Stark living in a made up world. Ned warns Cersei and trusts LF, as he's as blind to the nature of KL as his daughter is. He realizes too late, in the dungeons, the way Sansa realizes too late, after Joff beheads Ned. Even then, you could argue that her hopes were more realistic than Ned's: Ned had no hope of getting Cersei to leave KL with her kids, but we know that there was good reason for Sansa to believe Joff would spare Ned's life. His beheading comes as a shock to Cersei and Varys, not just to Sansa.

[Beks1650]

I will just say this: Sansa is my favourite Stark.

I'll second that.