Sansa is not a Stark

[sweetsunray]

Fabulous post!

Empathy is defined as being able to understand and share the feelings of another. While Sansa is becoming more empathetic, her start is definitely not defined by her being able to understand the feelings of another. In fact, it is quite the opposite. She doesn't truly begin to show this until she begins to interact with Sandor and here, she does indeed do a good job of understanding his feelings. This spreads to others but before him, being empathetic is hardly her defining trait. It is her lack of it that defines her when we first meet her and it was perhaps purposefully done this way to make her empathy and acceptance of Sandor and Dontos - people who have been shunned by everyone else - more prolific.

Thank you, On the Sansa-Arya dynamic in aGoT I'd like to expand on that with the following...

Originally we meet both sisters in the WF household, with Arya failing at the basic lady tasks and being mocked by Jeyne and her sister for it, and berated by the Septa. She seeks refuge with those who do not condemn her (her borthers, especially Jon). Eventually she ends up being punished with extra stitch work (and perhaps some extra) by her mother and the Septa. At WF Arya's upbringing and punishment/reward is controlled by the women (her mother and the Septa), who are both southern women of the faith of the 7. Neither Catelyn and the Septa are familiar with tomboyish noble girls, nor tolerate it in their home-culture. Sansa does well in that expectation, and never gets to question it. BTW likewise Ned, the maester and his master of arms are responsible of the upbringing of the sons.

But then there's a swithcheroo: the boys remain at WF with their mother (for the short time she remains there), and the girls are under the care of their father in KL. Though originally Catelyn foresees KL as the environment for her girls to become true ladies, and doesn't suppose Ned will interfere with this, as the Septa is going along, the switcheroo of parental influence has a significant impact. Though Ned is initially surprised with Arya's interest in fighting, with this cultural background (she-wolves of WF), he sees no harm in it, and is the first in control of the upbringing to allow and invest in Arya's interest and talent. He basically disarms the Septa of having any further control over Arya's upbringing, because she has her dancing classes.

While at a first glance, Sansa seems vindictive of Arya allowed to run more free and not being punished anymore for skipping embroidery, out of spite of the loss of Lady, it can also be seen how much of a shock it is to her preconceptions instilled into her by the Septa and to a lesser extent by her mother. All her life she has been taught that she's the good daughter and Arya the bad daughter, and that Arya needs to be punished for not doing her lady's duties. But her father does not regard his daughters from a narow preconceived notion of what a girl should be like, and appreciates both their identities. Though, Ned in no way thinks less of Sansa, because he sees a talent in Arya, for Sansa it feels that way. To Sansa the logic at WF was that she's perfect, her sister is a failure. So if in the eyes of Ned her sister is not a failure at KL, then Sansa is less perfect. It's not surprising that Sansa would be resentful of that idea, and would try to hold on to the earlier idea (she's perfect, Arya is a failure and bad girl). And Sansa can perceive that she hasn't changed, Arya hasn't changed, nor has the Septa changed. The sole change in the dynamics is her father being the parent, instead of her mother, and who before this had little say or control over her upbringing. In order to hold on to the original image of herself in relation to her sister and femininity, she therefore must question her father's ability to be a parent. Add the fact that she's a teen who naturally start to question their parent's choices, and we have the basis why she does not only question her father's decision to remove Arya and Sansa from KL, but actively attempts to sabotage it by turning to Cersei and reveal Ned's intentions to move the household from KL to WF again. Sure, her infatuation with Joffrey, Cersei and the court are her conscious motivators, but still it seems also out of character that a good daughter and lady like Sansa would act against her father's command and decisions. It's a very very bold move by Sansa, not even one that the Septa would have approved of. But psychologically she replaces her mother's role (as the one normally having parental power over the lives of the daughters) in her mind, an equal to her father and therefore having the power and the right to question his parental guidance and decisions and even act against them.

BTW from this perspective it becomes clear why Catelyn feels she can leave her sons behind. While she has a mother's feelings and does wish to have them close, especially when they're sick, she does not perceive herself to be their upbringer. Even with Ned gone, the maester and other men are there to be their parental guide. She sees no need for herself to be there as a parental guide to them. Catelyn is solely contronfted with the necessity of it, when she faces her eldest son already on the march down to the Riverlands.

[DireWolfSpirit]

@SweetSR

Thanks for posting,

you're a joy to read.

[Qhorin Halfhand and Yoren]

Thank you, On the Sansa-Arya dynamic in aGoT I'd like to expand on that with the following...

snip

Very good analysis, it actually enriched my understanding of the characters.

[Ser Pounce FTW]

BTW from this perspective it becomes clear why Catelyn feels she can leave her sons behind. While she has a mother's feelings and does wish to have them close, especially when they're sick, she does not perceive herself to be their upbringer. Even with Ned gone, the maester and other men are there to be their parental guide. She sees no need for herself to be there as a parental guide to them. Catelyn is solely contronfted with the necessity of it, when she faces her eldest son already on the march down to the Riverlands.

Another amazing post and great analysis of the girls' motivations and reactions. Your comments are very insightful of the actual text. However I do not agree that Cat does not perceive herself to be the boys' upbringer. I do believe she may feel that her role with them is different than her role with the girls but her interactions with Bran make me believe she consider her interactions with and rearing of the boys important. I think she remains with Robb because her primary task given to her by Ned is to aid Robb in being the Lord of Winterfell in his absence. This is most likely why she interprets this to mean she should be with Robb on the road rather than governing Winterfell. Or why she was willing to leave Rickon and Bran with the servants.

[joluoto2]

Of course Sansa is a Stark. She might also be a Stork, but I don't think so, but definitely a Stark.

[Ser Pounce FTW]

goodness!

I just wanted to let you know how much I have enjoyed your two posts on the dynamics of the Stark sisters. I don't know how much time you have available but I'm sure you know that some posters start threads analyzing aspects and themes of ASOIAF characters and plot and I think if you considered doing this, you'd get quite a following. Many people on the board would find it truly refreshing to read an analysis based solely in textual fact without the skew of personal preferences and wishes. Just something for you to consider :)

[The Ned's Little Girl]

{snipped the post, but it's right up there; read it!}

Brilliant analysis and a thorough joy to read. Thank you!

I just wanted to let you know how much I have enjoyed your two posts on the dynamics of the Stark sisters. I don't know how much time you have available but I'm sure you know that some posters start threads analyzing aspects and themes of ASOIAF characters and plot and I think if you considered doing this, you'd get quite a following. Many people on the board would find it truly refreshing to read an analysis based solely in textual fact without the skew of personal preferences and wishes. Just something for you to consider :)

:agree: I echo this heartily.

[sweetsunray]

Ok, I'll try to pour it into an OP of an analyses thread, but I must say that I could not have come up with those insights myself without several particular comments made about first the evidence of empathy in both of them, as well as questioning the deeper motivations for Sansa distancing herself from her family and in a way even betrays her father, without having any idea what the consequences could be. Ideas and insights can't come without having the questions posed, as they were in this thread, and without the interaction of others. So, thank you. I learned something about both Arya and Sansa myself.

[Mladen]

Thank you, On the Sansa-Arya dynamic in aGoT I'd like to expand on that with the following...

snip

Interesting post, although I do find your Catelyn assessment a bit off. You are right, Catelyn and Septa Mordane are in charge of the girls and until the road to KL, they are those who look after them and have the main role in upbringing the girls. However, Catelyn is far from the regular Southorn lady. To say that she enforced her daughters to be perfect ladies in contrast to what Ned wanted is something text clearly denies, given the fact that Catelyn is none less passionate than Arya to show the entire system a finger when she wants to protect those she love.

If you would allow me to elaborate. Ned is the one demanding that Arya goes to KL, because it is time for her "to be taught the ways of Southorn court". This is something that people constantly forget. It was Ned's desire, not Catelyn's. Cat agrees with that, because she knows that Arya will eventually have to "tame" her wild nature, being full at how the system works. Catelyn is nothing if not pragmatic. These southern customs are not something she is titally comfortable with, as shown many times, especially in ACOK when she is faced with glitz and glory of Renly's army. We see it when she speaks to Brienne and how she understands what the girl like Brienne must have suffered. Catelyn's "is there more sad creature than the ugly girl" is not shallow, but very astute perception of how the world functions. So, when it comes to her daughters, Cat (fully supported by Ned) prepares her daughters to be wives and mothers. Ned, in no way, is less traditionalist than Catelyn given how he continues with the same practice and when he confronts Sansa about Joffrey and tells her "I will find you someone strong and kind", he shows that unlike Catelyn, who was ready to break every single norm known to Westeros and imprison Tyrion, he is someone who is without any doubt a patriarchal traditionalist in heart. Because, no one here can argue that for all Ned's leniency towards Arya's hobbies, he wouldn't have expected of her the same thing he expected from Sansa.

Also, about your essay, I like the "adolescent" argument and questioning parenting decisions. Fresh approach. :)

[sweetsunray]

Another amazing post and great analysis of the girls' motivations and reactions. Your comments are very insightful of the actual text. However I do not agree that Cat does not perceive herself to be the boys' upbringer. I do believe she may feel that her role with them is different than her role with the girls but her interactions with Bran make me believe she consider her interactions with and rearing of the boys important. I think she remains with Robb because her primary task given to her by Ned is to aid Robb in being the Lord of Winterfell in his absence. This is most likely why she interprets this to mean she should be with Robb on the road rather than governing Winterfell. Or why she was willing to leave Rickon and Bran with the servants.

Initially, Catelyn only attempts to guide the boys who are still children (Bran and Rickon), and even then she normally asks Ned to punish them, whereas she punishes Arya herself, without asking Ned. It's actually a very common feature of patriarchal societies that mothers give the parental upbringing guidance to her boys up till the age of 7-8. After that, they will care for the sons when they're sick and show them supportive affection, but leave the upbringing from boys into men by the men.

This is the switcheroo Catelyn does after Ned leaves for KL with the girls. At first she is the bereft mother at Bran's sickbed, but then she takes matters in her own hands, and leaves her son's sickbed and her toddler son; the otherwise traditional mother role. And like she asked Ned to take parental responsibility of her girls, Ned asks her to take parental responsibility of the son who's nearly a man. Once she does that, she is in constant conflict between her "traditional mother role" and the more "tradiional father role". I'm not judging her with this observation, but just making an observation that there is a parental role switch for both Catelyn and Ned.

[sweetsunray]

Interesting post, although I do find your Catelyn assessment a bit off. You are right, Catelyn and Septa Mordane are in charge of the girls and until the road to KL, they are those who look after them and have the main role in upbringing the girls. However, Catelyn is far from the regular Southorn lady. To say that she enforced her daughters to be perfect ladies in contrast to what Ned wanted is something text clearly denies, given the fact that Catelyn is none less passionate than Arya to show the entire system a finger when she wants to protect those she love.

If you would allow me to elaborate. Ned is the one demanding that Arya goes to KL, because it is time for her "to be taught the ways of Southorn court". This is something that people constantly forget. It was Ned's desire, not Catelyn's. Cat agrees with that, because she knows that Arya will eventually have to "tame" her wild nature, being full at how the system works. Catelyn is nothing if not pragmatic. These southern customs are not something she is titally comfortable with, as shown many times, especially in ACOK when she is faced with glitz and glory of Renly's army. We see it when she speaks to Brienne and how she understands what the girl like Brienne must have suffered. Catelyn's "is there more sad creature than the ugly girl" is not shallow, but very astute perception of how the world functions. So, when it comes to her daughters, Cat (fully supported by Ned) prepares her daughters to be wives and mothers. Ned, in no way, is less traditionalist than Catelyn given how he continues with the same practice and when he confronts Sansa about Joffrey and tells her "I will find you someone strong and kind", he shows that unlike Catelyn, who was ready to break every single norm known to Westeros and imprison Tyrion, he is someone who is without any doubt a patriarchal traditionalist in heart. Because, no one here can argue that for all Ned's leniency towards Arya's hobbies, he wouldn't have expected of her the same thing he expected from Sansa.

Also, about your essay, I like the "adolescent" argument and questioning parenting decisions. Fresh approach. :)

Yes, it's Ned's suggestion to take Arya south, and for Catelyn to take on the lord's job basically, both over the sons as well as leading the council, involving Robb in it. And while it seems traditional to want to take Arya laong to get acquainted with southron ways, he also shows a not so traditional perception of a woman's role. He shows he considers women as able to council and make decisions as a man. The same can be said about his arguments about Arya: her tomboyishness does not make her any less feminine to him. It would be very close minded to consider a tomboy girl as not ever growing up into a woman who can fall in love and wishes to marry. Tomboy girls are still girls who develop into women just as much as little princesses do, just a different woman.

Until Robert's visit, Ned hadn't considered the marriages of his daughters yet. He's still quite shocked that his 11 year old Sansa is suddenly engaged. Sansa being promised to Joffrey, suddenly makes him realize that in a few years men will vie for a marriage arrangement with Arya. And him being the Hand in KL will increase the likelihood for lords to seek the hand of his second daughter. Add the fact that Robert's visit also reminds him of how badly a marriage arrangement went with Lyanna, and Ned has all the motivation to wants to be prepared and plan for such an arrangement differently than with Sansa and Lyanna. Sansa always dreamed of tourneys, courts, princes, princesses, lords and ladies. To settle an arranged marriage on her is quite easy: the crown prince, handsome boy. It wouldn't be so with Arya. Ned recognizes Lyanna in Arya. Lyanna was a tomboy, always kept at WF until the tourney of Harrenhal, and by then she was already promised to Robert. And Lyanna didn't want him. And yet, Lyanna was just as much a woman who fell in love and ran off/was seduced by the man she fell in love with. And it brought disaster over the 7 kingdoms: full scale war and lots of death of good men and women at both sides. With that history in mind, leaving Arya in WF until she's bethrothed to a man she never met before would be a very bad idea to Ned. At least growin gup in KL, she would have ample chances to meet the sons and lords before being engaged to any of them.

I realize this isn't explicitly mentioned in the text as Ned's motivation, for good reasons. It's way too early in the series to dump the info to what actually happened between Lyanna, Robert and Rhaegar onto the reader AND Ned wouldn't betray all the dirty on Lyanna/Rhaegar to his wife nor the maester. But if you keep that history in the back of your mind, the reading of the chapter where first Catelyn and Ned discuss him becoming the Hand and Sansa's marriage between themselves and then later on with Maester Luwin, it's not far off to suspect that Ned had other reasons for taking Arya (and initially Bran) along. When he privately expresses his doubts about Joffrey being a good match for Sansa as well as his shock at how young she still is, Catelyn reminds him that she was engaged to be married to Brandon at the age of 12. He bitterly responds to how it all should have gone to Brandon, not him. So, it's safe to assume the incidents that led to Brandon being dead and not lord of WF and married to Catelyn is foremost on his mind... as well as all that happened during the sacking of KL and what role the Lannisters played in that. To Ned it only advocates how he should refuse to be the Hand, and then when shortly after Luwin enters the room and the content of Lysa's message is known he's even more sure of it. Master Luwin's raasoning and Catelyn's appeal to his love for Robert eventually makes him agree to it, though he hates it. He must be the Hand, live at the viper's nest of KL, and Sansa must marry Joffrey. And he thinks of all that happened at KL when last a Stark Lord visited it. Once the decision is made, with the past very much at the top of his mind - no doubt including Lyanna - he decides that Arya must come along as well as Brandon, for there is bad blood between Robb and Joffrey (a possible Brandon-Rhaegar-Vaerys in the making), and Bran is to smoothe out the relations between the Baratheon boys and the Stark boys. But Bran falls almost to his death, so only Arya and Sansa come along to KL.

[Dya of Oldstones]

Great analysis sweetsunray. :bowdown:

I would like to chime in a little bit on Septa Mordane, since I think she actually bullied both Stark girls but was much more subtle with Sansa, more like a good cop bad cop routine. Sansa got heaps of praise for fitting into the narrow box of what passed for Southern gentility, but was harshly rebuked when she tried to stop outside of that box even in a small way. That included expressing herself or asserting herself even in a traditionally feminine manner, which in some ways was worse than what Arya got. At least in Arya's case, it's much easier to identify, but in Sansa's case it's much more insidious and may not be caught until years or decades later. I found an old thread on Septa Mordane as well.

http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/69881-septa-mordane-worst-teacher-in-westeros/?hl=%20septa%20%20mordane

If we go by the OP's logic, we may as well go all the way and say Rickard Stark was not a true Stark. He was the one who originally had the Southern ambitions with arranging marriages between two of his children into Southern LP families and two generations later, it's still biting his House in the ass. Just ask Barbrey Dustin.

Anyone who says that's ridiculous, I'll agree but it's a shoe that fits better on him than on Sansa.

ETA: There's actually a lot I like about Ned and Cat's marriage, but I consider it a bright spot in the whole thing.

[James Arryn]

Although I can see the temptation to delineate Stark parenting along gender lines, I don't think it really holds up in the text.

Firstly, we don't really see either parent the older boys at all before the family splits up. Ned does no more than Cat; arguably less. By the time we see them he's already acting more like a commander towards Robb/Jon than a parent. He issues orders or judgments and leads by example. Their recollections of his actually talking to them tends to centre more on issues of how to command than how to behave. They care about his opinion and strive to meet his expectations, but we don't ever see him doing the gender equivalent of what he's forced to do in KL. He may have or that may always have been Cat/Nan/Lewyn's province, it's hard to say. Either works in terms of fish out of water with regards the girls in KL, before which his parenting is almost entirely devoid of addressing behavioural issues. We don't contrast him dealing with Sansa & Arya's tempers etc. with anything of the kind for a Robb & Jon. Whenever a parent is referenced with regards to behavioural issues for a kid of either gender, it's Cat doing the parenting. Cat telling Bran not to climb or Arya to sew or w/e. Ned deals with functions, Cat with behaviour.

Which is why he's more comfortable with Arya; not that she's more masculine, but rather that the solution is functional. It's more linear problem solving like a commander is accustomed to. His solution is the go-to of every military commander ever: basic training. It really doesn't go much further than that. His talk with her could even fall under the heading of 'troop morale and cohesion', ie we're in this dangerous situation together, we need to watch each other's backs.

He doesn't have the same option with Sansa, hence he doesn't know what to do. We don't get the sense he addressed similar issues with Robb or w/e, but more that this kind of stuff usually doesn't happen around him.

[John Doe]

I read Sansa is not a shark... I think I'm ready for bed now.

[Colonel Green]

As far as gender dynamics amongst the Stark parents, in some respects Ned's approach with Arya up until the final months of her life was a worst-of-both-worlds thing.

By which I mean, Ned raised Arya within an extremely traditional educational framework and set of expectations (expectations and such that are not new or anything, mind you) but at the same time, he consistently fails to follow through and enforce his own rules. The resulting message is basically "There's only one way to be a lady, and you suck at it, but I love you anyway." Which, it's nice that when push comes to shove he seems inclined to let Arya follow her heart, but it's not really great for her self-esteem, as we can see from her POVs that she is always painfully aware that she's not living up to expectations. Realistically, he either needed to start expanding his notions about the sort of role and lifestyle she was allowed to formally pursue (and to actually tell her, and others, that this is fine), or he needed to double-down on conformity. Taking Arya to KL seems like it was heading down the path of doing the latter, but he ultimately settled on the former, with the sword-training; we'll unfortunately never know how far he would have gone down this road had he gotten the chance to parent her into her teenage years.

[sweetsunray]

Great analysis sweetsunray. :bowdown:

I would like to chime in a little bit on Septa Mordane, since I think she actually bullied both Stark girls but was much more subtle with Sansa, more like a good cop bad cop routine. Sansa got heaps of praise for fitting into the narrow box of what passed for Southern gentility, but was harshly rebuked when she tried to stop outside of that box even in a small way. That included expressing herself or asserting herself even in a traditionally feminine manner, which in some ways was worse than what Arya got. At least in Arya's case, it's much easier to identify, but in Sansa's case it's much more insidious and may not be caught until years or decades later. I found an old thread on Septa Mordane as well.

http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/69881-septa-mordane-worst-teacher-in-westeros/?hl=%20septa%20%20mordane

If we go by the OP's logic, we may as well go all the way and say Rickard Stark was not a true Stark. He was the one who originally had the Southern ambitions with arranging marriages between two of his children into Southern LP families and two generations later, it's still biting his House in the ass. Just ask Barbrey Dustin.

Anyone who says that's ridiculous, I'll agree but it's a shoe that fits better on him than on Sansa.

ETA: There's actually a lot I like about Ned and Cat's marriage, but I consider it a bright spot in the whole thing.

You are correct that she chides Sansa, and constantly reminding her that something is not ladylike, even if Ned approved of it. She does neither Arya, nor Sansa any good, not in the "present", not in the "long run".

[sweetsunray]

Although I can see the temptation to delineate Stark parenting along gender lines, I don't think it really holds up in the text.

Firstly, we don't really see either parent the older boys at all before the family splits up. Ned does no more than Cat; arguably less. By the time we see them he's already acting more like a commander towards Robb/Jon than a parent. He issues orders or judgments and leads by example. Their recollections of his actually talking to them tends to centre more on issues of how to command than how to behave. They care about his opinion and strive to meet his expectations, but we don't ever see him doing the gender equivalent of what he's forced to do in KL. He may have or that may always have been Cat/Nan/Lewyn's province, it's hard to say. Either works in terms of fish out of water with regards the girls in KL, before which his parenting is almost entirely devoid of addressing behavioural issues. We don't contrast him dealing with Sansa & Arya's tempers etc. with anything of the kind for a Robb & Jon. Whenever a parent is referenced with regards to behavioural issues for a kid of either gender, it's Cat doing the parenting. Cat telling Bran not to climb or Arya to sew or w/e. Ned deals with functions, Cat with behaviour.

Which is why he's more comfortable with Arya; not that she's more masculine, but rather that the solution is functional. It's more linear problem solving like a commander is accustomed to. His solution is the go-to of every military commander ever: basic training. It really doesn't go much further than that. His talk with her could even fall under the heading of 'troop morale and cohesion', ie we're in this dangerous situation together, we need to watch each other's backs.

He doesn't have the same option with Sansa, hence he doesn't know what to do. We don't get the sense he addressed similar issues with Robb or w/e, but more that this kind of stuff usually doesn't happen around him.

Well it's problematic to make any assessment on Ned's parental guidance with his older sons. Aside from Bran's memory of Ned making Bran think about his climbing habbits in the godswood (and Bran ending up sleeping in a tree) and Theon's memoryof a trashing he received by Ned after being insolent to an old servant we can barely see him interact with his sons or wards.... Ned's separated from the boys within 4-5 chapters, and bound to go hunting with Robert and so on. I get the impression that neither Catelyn nor Ned are parental guides in the modern sense on a daily basis. The Lords and Ladies in the middle ages weren't constant, daily parental guides to their children either. It were specifically hired servants who were left to do the daily upbringnig, with the lady mother or lord father only called in when the children required punishment (with the extension of the lady mother being at the sick bed). We see imo exactly something similar at WF. What is the gigantic difference imo is that the girls only have one person teaching them, the septa, whereas the boys are taught by several men (maester, master at arms, steward, kennel master, stable master, septon, ...). Even if one of the male adults raising and teaching them picks on one of the sons constantly, unfailry and harshly, there's plenty of other male adults to balance that out. Not so at all for the girls. They're basically bound to one woman teaching them about being a woman, and their mother only enters the scene when a punishment is required. Aside from the maester and the septon, all the other men in charge of the daily upbringing of the boys are Norhtmen. And the girls have a septa who's infatuated with KL court without any respect or knowledge of the North.

[Colonel Green]

I get the impression that neither Catelyn nor Ned are parental guides in the modern sense on a daily basis. The Lords and Ladies in the middle ages weren't constant, daily parental guides to their children either.

While the Starks obviously have more people helping them than the average family, on this point I disagree: GRRM definitely paints the Starks as the closest thing we see in Westeros to a traditional nuclear family, and that includes parental involvement to a degree far beyond what would have been typical in the period.

[LongRider]

bump

[sweetsunray]

While the Starks obviously have more people helping them than the average family, on this point I disagree: GRRM definitely paints the Starks as the closest thing we see in Westeros to a traditional nuclear family, and that includes parental involvement to a degree far beyond what would have been typical in the period.

, Yes they are more involved than others are... but still it's not the same as modern parents.