R+L =J v.135

[Ygritte]

Not at all. Its all about their source. We know they have news from post-sack. We know the (ex)rebels will certainly be disseminating news of their victory and the fate of the Targaryens as fast and as wide as possible. Its very likely therefore that the (ex)rebel pronouncements are the originating source of the KG's data (brought to them by their hidden allies), and those wouldn't include the irrelevance of Viserys' earlier heirship.

I think this is a really important point; as you (I think it was you) mentioned earlier, by the time the ToJ guys heard Viserys was the heir, he would have already appeared to be the heir (at least to anyone who didn't know about Jon). Because by that point, everybody else was dead anyway. It's likely they got all this news at once. Whoever was telling them, whether that was Ned or someone else, would not necessarily have gone into the details about the heirship because it didn't matter. He would have appeared to be the heir anyway.

[Ser Creighton]

Yessssssss, its all coming together......bwahahahaha

Hold onto your hat as I said above, legit source on tape with a conformation at the end of this 1 minute video. The stars know all.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=n4SYWyRuXW4

[Ygritte]

Hold onto your hat as I said above, legit source on tape with a conformation at the end of this 1 minute video. The stars know all.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=n4SYWyRuXW4

"Blood. Death. Boobs." :lol:

[BearQueen87]

Hold onto your hat as I said above, legit source on tape with a conformation at the end of this 1 minute video. The stars know all.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=n4SYWyRuXW4

Death death death death REVENGE death

Daenerys Wins.

[Han Snow]

"Blood. Death. Boobs." :lol:

That about sums it up.

And no offense dear Ygritte...but...khmm, that avi of yours reminds me of this:

http://www.prestoimages.net/store30/rd10335/10335_pd1872166_7.jpg

Funny and disconcerting at the same time. :blushing:

[Ser Creighton]

Death death death death REVENGE death

Daenerys Wins.

You can't leave out the middle, Tyrion becomes a science chem teacher and meets a guy named Jesse they get an RV and then Fried Chicken, which appears to make Jon get progressively more upset. Which makes sense because you can't stay fast lean and in shape if you are eating Fried Chicken, yet Tyrion is using the fried chicken to take over the throne, but Dany is in Essos and takes the fried chicken from Tyrion and Jesse is all like Yo Bitch, that is my fried chicken, I make fried chicken just as good as Tyrion. But Tyrion is all like Dany I will cook for you. I hope Jessie and Tyrion make up.

[BearQueen87]

You can't leave out the middle, Tyrion becomes a science chem teacher and meets a guy named Jessie they get an RV and then Fried Chicken, which appears to make Jon get progressively more upset. Which makes sense because you can't stay fast lean and in shape if you are eating Fried Chicken, yet Tyrion is using the fried chicken to take over the throne, but Dany is in Essos and takes the fried chicken from Tyrion and Jessie is all like Yo Bitch, that is my fried chicken, I make fried chicken just as good as Tyrion. But Tyrion is all like Dany I will cook for you. I hope Jessie and Tyrion make up.

You gotta have faith, friend. Jesse and Tyrion make up, introduce Fried Chicken to Essos, there is some more death to be had (probably because of undercooked fried chicken), some boobs (which pair nicely with fried chicken), Daenerys wins by virtue of saying so (she also know the secret family recipe for fried chicken) and Jon Snow still doesn't know anything because...Jon Snow.

[Ser Creighton]

You gotta have faith, friend. Jesse and Tyrion make up, introduce Fried Chicken to Essos, there is some more death to be had (probably because of undercooked fried chicken), some boobs (which pair nicely with fried chicken), Daenerys wins by virtue of saying so (she also know the secret family recipe for fried chicken) and Jon Snow still doesn't know anything because...Jon Snow.

Yeah but Jon is baby blue, so love story with ummm fried chicken.

[MtnLion]

<snip>

The idea of searching out the new king, Viserys III, in this whole scenario is difficult if they had received a standing order by Rhaegar and felt honor-bound to obey that order. The mind of a KG is not wiped clean or reset when the old king dies. In a monarchy, a succession is always a difficult time, full of uncertainty and potential chaos, as the king is the thing which holds everything together. It would be up to interpretation what to do, but it is clear that our guys decided to continue to obey Rhaegar's order.

<snip>

On the contrary they state that they are obeying their vow. Their first priority is the king's defense and protection, many of them state so openly in the text. Some want it to be obey, but that is not the case. Fuck Rhaegar's orders if the king needs protection.

[MtnLion]

We have no reason to believe that Ned brought Jon with him back to KL when he returned with Lyanna's corpse. That would have been ... unwise. Robert may be stupid but others are clearly more perceptive.

True, but we don't even know that Ned took Lyanna's bones or corpse to King's Landing. The logical course is for Ned to hire passage on a ship travelling north. Chance has provided him with a navigator for the swamp lands, in Howland Reed. (Next stop the floating cities.)

So, when did Ned and Robert patch up their row? Likely during either Cersei's wedding, when Ned admits being overcome with grief when he found his sister dead, and taking her straight back to Winterfell for interment.

[MtnLion]

I think we should assume that Ned stayed at least at KL for Robert's coronation and the subsequent wedding (it is very unlikely that Ned was not at Robert's side when he finally married).

Yes, it is clear that Ned was present for the coronation. Now, when was the wedding? We know that Ned left because of how Robert forgave Jaime: His sword helped taint the throne you sit on, Ned thought, but did not permit the words to pass his lips. "He swore a vow to protect his king's life with his own. Then he opened that king's throat with a sword." And because of the gifts (Rhaenys, Aegon, and Elia) that Tywin presented to Robert. When that happened Jon Arryn just barely avoids a war between Robert and Ned in King's Landing. I am pretty sure that the wedding is going to be some months off, as Tywin seeks to improve his ties to the throne.

[Ser Creighton]

True, but we don't even know that Ned took Lyanna's bones or corpse to King's Landing. The logical course is for Ned to hire passage on a ship travelling north. Chance has provided him with a navigator for the swamp lands, in Howland Reed. (Next stop the floating cities.)

So, when did Ned and Robert patch up their row? Likely during either Cersei's wedding, when Ned admits being overcome with grief when he found his sister dead, and taking her straight back to Winterfell for interment.

I always thought Ned was the one who brought the bones home, seems like it from what Babs said.

“Ned Stark returned the horse to me on his way back home to Winterfell. He told me that my lord had died an honorable death, that his body had been laid to rest beneath the red mountains of Dorne. He brought his sister’s bones back north, though, and there she rests”

[Ygritte]

I always thought Ned was the one who brought the bones home, seems like it from what Babs said.

“Ned Stark returned the horse to me on his way back home to Winterfell. He told me that my lord had died an honorable death, that his body had been laid to rest beneath the red mountains of Dorne. He brought his sister’s bones back north, though, and there she rests”

So let's see...Robert ascends the throne, Ned gets angry about the children and goes to life the siege on Storm's End, he does so, and then breaks off with a small handful of people to find Lyanna. ToJ happens. Then either Ned and Howland come back together with both the baby and the body, or they split up. If they split up and Reed gets back first, that accounts for Cat's mention of the baby and wet nurse etc. (Do we know for sure Ned wasn't there too when Cat arrived? I can't remember.) Splitting up also might be safer. If someone runs into one of the groups on the road, they'll either see just a baby or just Lyanna's bones and not put them together as easily.

[markg171]

No. Not at all. Cat spend the entire pregnancy at Riverrun. With the pregnancy starting in the first two weeks of marriage.

Catelyn also says that she and Ned spend the first year of their marriage apart. A period or 18 months or more wouldn't be described as a year, I'd say.

Why would Ned stay until Dragonstone was taken? He had no force at sea... No ships... Nothing that could help Stannis..

The war ended with the Sack as the final battle, I think, with Roberts coronation shortly thereafter... Despite Dragonstone not yet having been taken. In the same sense that the War of Conquest ended in 1 AC, despite 4 AC - 13 AC being a war to complete the Conquest, as well as 157 - 161 AC...

I never said that Ned stayed until Dragonstone was taken, I said that Catelyn did. She's the one who says in the same paragraph that she stayed in Riverrun until the wars were over (which only ended when Dragonstone was taken) and returned to Winterfell to find that Ned had brought Wylla and Jon with him.

Whether Catelyn went back to Winterfell after the Sack or the taking of Dragonstone, she got there after Ned, Jon, and Wylla did. Which doesn't make any sense if she left after the Sack as Ned stayed in the south for awhile as he still had to take Storm's End, fight at the TOJ, go to Starfall, and return to KL. But according to Catelyn, Ned beat her home. Which is why her staying till the taking of Dragonstone makes more sense than if she returned after the Sack.

[BearQueen87]

So let's see...Robert ascends the throne, Ned gets angry about the children and goes to life the siege on Storm's End, he does so, and then breaks off with a small handful of people to find Lyanna. ToJ happens. Then either Ned and Howland come back together with both the baby and the body, or they split up. If they split up and Reed gets back first, that accounts for Cat's mention of the baby and wet nurse etc. (Do we know for sure Ned wasn't there too when Cat arrived? I can't remember.) Splitting up also might be safer. If someone runs into one of the groups on the road, they'll either see just a baby or just Lyanna's bones and not put them together as easily.

I think HR and Ned split up because no one in the army or Robert ever see the baby, right?

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

I never said that Ned stayed until Dragonstone was taken, I said that Catelyn did. She's the one who says in the same paragraph that she stayed in Riverrun until the wars were over (which only ended when Dragonstone was taken) and returned to Winterfell to find that Ned had brought Wylla and Jon with him.

Whether Catelyn went back to Winterfell after the Sack or the taking of Dragonstone, she got there after Ned, Jon, and Wylla did. Which doesn't make any sense if she left after the Sack as Ned stayed in the south for awhile as he still had to take Storm's End, fight at the TOJ, go to Starfall, and return to KL. But according to Catelyn, Ned beat her home.[/b[ Which is why her staying till the taking of Dragonstone makes more sense than if she returned after the Sack.

Where does she say that?

History counts Robert's Rebellion as having officially begun at Jon Arryn raising the banners, until he fall of KL about a year later.

[Lord Varys]

MtnLion,

the point is, we don't know what they were thinking or how they interpreted the oath - if they did it. They could have just obeyed. They certainly did obey and stayed at tower while Rhaegar and Aerys were still alive, no?

And if we enter into legal technicalities and personal honor than we have to consider that oaths of fealty are binding persons to persons, not persons to institution. When a knight joins the KG he swears what he will and will not do (hold no lands, father no children etc.), and that he'll protect and obey 'the king'. But this would always be a personal oath of the KG knight to the king who is alive at this point. For instance, the KG of Viserys I swear their oaths to Viserys I, and then split up their loyalties between Rhaenyra and Aegon - Steffon Darklyn even defected from Aegon to Rhaenyra. This strongly suggests that a KG knight is only again bond by oath to a new king if he renews his oath of fealty to that king and thus recognizing him as his new king.

Barristan would have done something similar after he recovered from his wounds and accepted Robert's pardon.

With all that in mind there is no reason to believe that the knights at the tower had made up their mind who the new king was - if we go with a literal interpretation of the dream (which I do not):

- the knights obeyed Rhaegar's last command to guard the tower and the people in it at all costs and had no intention to leave it sooner or later.

- the knights guarded the tower and obeyed Rhaegar's command until they received the news about what happened and were making preparations to leave after Lyanna's death.

They may also have considered Rhaegar's child by Lyanna 'the true king' now, but since Rhaegar (and thus possibly by extension King Aerys himself) had commanded them to protect this women/princess-by-marriage and her (unborn) child (possibly a prince of the blood) they were now the sworn shields of this branch of the royal family, and not necessarily allowed to reappoint themselves to other members of the royal family after they heard of the death of the other Targaryens. Rhaella and Viserys III could easily make new KG on Dragonstone, could they not?

Lyanna's bones:

Considering that Ned's bones are still returning to Winterfell via the Kingsroad I'd assume that Lyanna traveled the same route. Didn't Ned and Robert fall out immediately after the Sack of King's Landing before he continued his way south? He took charge of Storm's End etc. because he could not bear to be in Robert's presence anymore.

Robert's wedding:

Yandel states that Robert's first act as king was to take Cersei Lannister to wife. This could be a hint that the coronation and the wedding were sort of combined, and Tywin and Jon Arryn were hammering out the terms immediately after the Sack of KL. And I'm pretty sure Tywin was keep to glue the coronation and Cersei's installation as queen together, so that the Lannisters appeared about as royal as Robert's family. I'd also assume that Ned enjoyed a place of huge honor at the coronation and wedding feast, effectively sidelining Stannis. Part of Stannis' issues with Ned should go back to the childhood friendship between the two - Robert not wanting to hang out with his real brother but rather with 'the brother he chose' - but he not necessarily all of them.

[Ygritte]

I think HR and Ned split up because no one in the army or Robert ever see the baby, right?

Nope. I think both groups--if they did split--completely avoided the army on their way north, FWIW. Ned would want both bones and baby safely ensconced at Winterfell before running into Robert.

How does Robert find out Lyanna died, that's another question. We know they made up their quarrel in their grief. So does Ned just write a letter from Winterfell, or does he go back to KL for a while afterward?

[BearQueen87]

Nope. I think both groups--if they did split--completely avoided the army on their way north, FWIW. Ned would want both bones and baby safely ensconced at Winterfell before running into Robert.

How does Robert find out Lyanna died, that's another question. We know they made up their quarrel in their grief. So does Ned just write a letter from Winterfell, or does he go back to KL for a while afterward?

I think Ned went back to KL to deliver the news and mourn his sister with Robert, while sending HR and the baby north. If Barbery is telling the truth then it sounds like Ned escorted Lyanna's bones northward.

[Ygritte]

Robert's wedding:

Yandel states that Robert's first act as king was to take Cersei Lannister to wife. This could be a hint that the coronation and the wedding were sort of combined, and Tywin and Jon Arryn were hammering out the terms immediately after the Sack of KL. And I'm pretty sure Tywin was keep to glue the coronation and Cersei's installation as queen together, so that the Lannisters appeared about as royal as Robert's family. I'd also assume that Ned enjoyed a place of huge honor at the coronation and wedding feast, effectively sidelining Stannis. Part of Stannis' issues with Ned should go back to the childhood friendship between the two - Robert not wanting to hang out with his real brother but rather with 'the brother he chose' - but he not necessarily all of them.

And I think the marriage was in the year following the year the war ended. A formal coronation need not happen the moment the king becomes king--monarchs in our world would sometimes put it off for a while. Possibly because of the logistics of planning a huge event.