R+L =J v.135

[BearQueen87]

How do you conclude that Aegon was born after the Tourney?

I don't think we have enough evidences to say so.

Because she was bed ridden after birthing Aegon, not up and traveling to tourneys.

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

How do you conclude that Aegon was born after the Tourney?

I don't think we have enough evidences to say so.

Two pregnancies + six month bedrest.. = 24 months.. that since 280 AC, with all completed by the start (first few weeks of) 282 AC

[Lord Varys]

Mithras,

the math is really easy with the Aegon thing.

Tywin:

We have no reason to believe Rhaegar needed Tywin for the money issues, nor is there any indication that Rhaegar was close to Tywin or wanted to marry Cersei. Thus I doubt that this was the case. Nothing in Cersei's mind ever suggests she was close to Rhaegar and interacted with him in a way that could suggest that he was interested in her romantically.

Aerys came to believe that Rhaegar and Tywin were conspiring against him - and this does not sound completely unreasonable - but there is no evidence for this.

The fact that Rhaegar needed complete secrecy for his covert Great Council idea also argues against involving Tywin in the whole thing. But I imagine that Lord Walter personally invited Tywin and all the Lords of the West to the tourney because Rhaegar asked him to do just that, and Tywin only decided to stay at home after Aerys suddenly announced that he would be there, too - explaining why all the Westermen came but Tywin did not.

[Mithras]

Two pregnancies + six month bedrest.. = 24 months.. that since 280 AC, with all completed by the start (first few weeks of) 282 AC

It was probably not exactly 6 months bed rest. It might be a figure of speech. And we know that a comet was sighted in the night of Aegon's conception. In that case, Rhaegar would not miss the chance and the conception of Aegon might have taken place during the bed rest period.

[Lord Varys]

We know Rhaenys was born late in 180 AC, as Rhaegar and Elia only married early in that year. Aegon's conception must have then been in the early months of 281 AC, in March or April. The tourney could have been in the summer months, early enough in Elia's pregnancy to travel.

Aegon cannot have been born before the tourney, as he was not much older than a year when he died in 283 AC. If he had been born before the tourney, the chronology would be a total mess. Not to mention that he is first mentioned after the tourney, on Dragonstone, shortly before Rhaegar takes off into the Riverlands.

The Lyanna abduction thing is caused by Aegon's birth, as only the birth of a male child led Rhaegar to the conclusion that the comet heralded the coming of the true promised prince. He could not have known the gender of the child before its birth. And Elia only became barren after Aegon's birth, making it impossible for Rhaegar to try to father another child with her. And Elia was much worse after the second birth, since that nearly killed her. She would not have gone to Harrenhal shortly after that.

In fact, if Aegon had already been born at Harrenhal despite everything, we should have expected Rhaegar to claim/run away with Lyanna at the tourney, as this was clearly the time when their romantic attraction formed, and with Aegon already born and Elia barren Rhaegar would then have been highly motivated to take Lyanna then and there, rather than wait. In fact, back then he may have been able to control himself and remain faithful to his wife, but when the promised prince was born and Elia no longer capable of bearing children he may have concluded that this was 'a sign of the gods' that he had to/was allowed to conceive the third head of the dragon with the woman that he had fallen in love with.

[Mithras]

After Elia's second birth, it is not mentioned that she had months of bed rest. It is only said that she nearly died.

[SFDanny]

have to look something up, I just thought of. Be back later. sorry

[Lord Varys]

That's not the issue. The issue is that she could not have conceived a child immediately after Rhaenys birth as

- she was recovering from Rhaenys' birth for six months

- Aegon would be too old if he was conceived six months earlier.

This thing has been long settled.

SFDanny,

using real world biology and the tendency of Westerosi noblewomen to breastfeed their own children, it is very likely that Elia could not conceive for quite some time while recovering from Rhaenys' birth.

And considering that Rhaegar was not in love with Elia we should be pretty sure that he allowed her to recover, as their sex would have been duty rather than passion. Not to mention that Rhaegar - possibly without Elia - went to KL to present young Rhaenys to Aerys and Rhaella, making him unable to share her bed.

It seems that Aegon may have been conceived during the KL visit, though, as the comet in the night of Aegon's conception - another sign that Rhaegar and Elia did not have sex often, as that could have complicated the issue of dating the conception of Aegon. Then we should assume that Rhaegar and Elia traveled together to KL after she had recovered to present their daughter to the king and queen.

[Mithras]

Aegon might have some sort of developmental syndrome and he might look not so different than such a kid during the Sack. Or perhaps he had a heart defect that reduced his development. Rhaenyra's daughter Visenya had a hole in her chest where her heart should have been.

[BearQueen87]

Aegon might have some sort of developmental syndrome and he might look not so different than such a kid during the Sack.

And the evidence for this is....?

[Lord Varys]

Mithras,

you should really try to be god. He/she can will things into existence that aren't there. You can't, or else we would all have read about this 'development syndrome' ;-).

[SFDanny]

Lord Varys, sorry it's not true about what you view of real world biology. Breastfeeding does not work as birth control. And, while, nowadays it is normally recommended to women not to engage in sex after the trauma of birth to give time to heal, that too is no guarantee a new pregnancy will not occur if sex takes place. This is totally dependent on when a new mother begins to ovulate again, and that varies from woman to woman. The are many real world examples of this taking place in shorter periods than six months. Please note I removed my quote because I want to search for something in the text, not that any of the above isn't true. Have to leave, but I'll be back soon

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

It was probably not exactly 6 months bed rest. It might be a figure of speech. And we know that a comet was sighted in the night of Aegon's conception. In that case, Rhaegar would not miss the chance and the conception of Aegon might have taken place during the bed rest period.

I assume it wasn't exactly 6 months... But, it won't have been much less... 5 would be the minimum, if you ask me, otherwise there would be no reason to describe the period as half a year.

Also, we don't know when the wedding took place, only that it was early.

It should be very, very clear that the time schedule was very tight. Aegon was born in the final weeks of 281 AC, or the first few of 282 AC, before Rhaegar left.

Lord Varys,

I don't think the SSM stating Aegon wad between 12 months and 14 months old at the Sack is correct anymore. That should place Aegons death in early 283 AC, and that is not when the Sack occurred. So he was a few months older.

[BearQueen87]

Mithras,

you should really try to be god. He/she can will things into existence that aren't there. You can't, or else we would all have read about this 'development syndrome' ;-).

bahahahahahahahahahahahahaha

[Mithras]

And the evidence for this is....?

Aegon was never said to be a healthy, normal kid;

Elia had hard pregnancies;

Targaryen babies are known to have such problems;

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

Aegon was never said to be a healthy, normal kid;

Elia had hard pregnancies;

Targaryen babies are known to have such problems;

Was he ever said to have been sick? No. So there is no evidence for anything regarding Aegons health.

[Lord Varys]

SFDanny,

aren't women supposed to produce hormones that prevent to ovulate again while they are breastfeeding? I thought that this was the case, although it would certainly not be an effective/trustworthy way of birth control.

Rhaenys,

but the war still is supposed to be 'about a year', is it not? I'm with you that we don't know when exactly the war began, and that it extended somewhat into 283 AC, but I doubt it was much longer. The crucial thing is that we don't know how much time passed between Rhaegar leaving and Rickard/Brandon's deaths and Jon Arryn raising his banners. 14-15 months for Aegon at his death should be the far end of the scale.

And if we went with an earlier birth he would have to be much older.

[BearQueen87]

Aegon was never said to be a healthy, normal kid;

Elia had hard pregnancies;

Targaryen babies are known to have such problems;

1) The text not being explicit does not mean it's true. You are hearing hoof beats and thinking flying aquatic mammal instead of horses. It's never mentioned that he was sick either.

2) And...? Rhaenys was healthy. Many women in Westeros had hard pregnancies. Do all their babes end up with developmental syndrome?

3) And many Targ babies are not problematic. Such as Rhaegar himself, Viserys, Dany, and Rhaenys.

[Consigliere]

I don't think the SSM stating Aegon wad between 12 months and 14 months old at the Sack is correct anymore. That should place Aegons death in early 283 AC, and that is not when the Sack occurred. So he was a few months older.

The ssm is still valid as I understand it. The actual wording is: At the time of the Sack, Aegon Targaryen was, "Still a babe at the breast. A year old, give or take a turn or two." I take this to mean that he was anywhere from 10-14 months old.

[Alia of the knife]

I think you could enjoy this meta about why Aerys chose Elia to be Rhaegar's bride. Racism (or xenophobia, more like, since according to GRRM the Dornish are still pretty white) may come into it.

In fact, it does. Rhaegar's line was disinherited and another child of Aerys still survives. If you go by Aerys' decree, Daenerys is the true heir... unless you attempt to skip her because she's female. It presents a great opportunity for Dany to present herself as the heir, not Aegon (while the real reason why she fights Aegon will likely be that she suspects he's not who he claims he is).

In other words DotD 2.0. A female claimant appointed by the last king (sort of) vs. a male claimant who would become the king automatically had it not been for the last king's decree. GRRM loves his paralels. Rhaenyra vs Aegon II and Daenerys vs fAegon.

Definitely agree with the latter, but as for the first and the meta, a couple of observations.

From GRRM, the Dornish are a hybrid culture of Moorish Spain, and Wales with some Mediterranean influences. And in appearance the European Spanish, like the Dornish range from dark to light, with the latter having blonde hair and light eyes.

Catherine of Aragon, Henry VIII's first wife actually was the fair one. She had red/gold hair and blue eyes, while Anne Boleyn was dark skinned with dark hair and eyes.

The Welsh like the Dornish would have fought the English until they died, so like the Dornish, they married the English to bring them into the kingdom. In fact, if you look at Prince Lewyns name it looks a lot like this:

"Llywelyn the Great (Welsh: Llywelyn Fawr, [ɬəˈwɛlɨn vaur]), full name Llywelyn ap Iorwerth, (c. 1172 11 April 1240) was a Prince of Gwynedd in north Wales and eventually de facto ruler over most of Wales. By a combination of war and diplomacy he dominated Wales for 40 years.

During Llywelyn's boyhood, Gwynedd was ruled by two of his uncles, who split the kingdom between them, following the death of Llywelyn's grandfather, Owain Gwynedd, in 1170. Llywelyn had a strong claim to be the legitimate ruler and began a campaign to win power at an early age. He was sole ruler of Gwynedd by 1200 and made a treaty with King John of England that year.

Llywelyn's relations with John remained good for the next ten years. He married John's natural daughter Joan in 1205, and when John arrested Gwenwynwyn ab Owain of Powys in 1208, Llywelyn took the opportunity to annex southern Powys. In 1210, relations deteriorated, and John invaded Gwynedd in 1211. Llywelyn was forced to seek terms and to give up all lands east of the River Conwy, but was able to recover them the following year in alliance with the other Welsh princes. He allied himself with the barons who forced John to sign the Magna Carta in 1215. By 1216, he was the dominant power in Wales, holding a council at Aberdyfi that year to apportion lands to the other princes." - Wiki.

The original kingdoms of England before the Norman invasion looked alot like the current seven kingdoms in Westeros. They were:

- Northumbria

- Mercia

- East Anglia

- Essex

- Kent

- Sussex

- Wessex

There is even a Narrow Sea.

While I think that meta is written well,I find it unlikely. After all, this is a story essentially set in England and Europe based upon those wars and familial civil wars. (Rhaenyra vs. Aegon II = Matilda Anjou, daughter of Henry I, vs. her cousin Stephen of Blois).

The Dornish embraced their ties to the Tarygaryens and were quite proud of their own dragons blood. In fact, to be fair, when they first came to Westoros, Dornish pride is one of the things they brought with them, and likely one of the things that was off-putting in their relations with the rest of the Westerosi.

This media piece narrated by Pedro Pascal is a beautiful breakdown of the history.

https://video.search.yahoo.com/video/play;_ylt=A2KLqIXuivhUXywArOT7w8QF;_ylu=X3oDMTByNDY3bGRuBHNlYwNzcgRzbGsDdmlkBHZ0aWQDBGdwb3MDNQ--?p=pedro+pascal+narrates+elia&vid=28a96db935b21988510497163b828685&l=4%3A44&turl=http%3A%2F%2Fts3.mm.bing.net%2Fth%3Fid%3DVN.607988321004356738%26pid%3D15.1&rurl=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.youtube.com%2Fwatch%3Fv%3Dm-Ep6gyLdvw&tit=Game+of+Thrones+Season+4+Lore+Robert%26%2339%3Bs+Rebellion&c=4&sigr=11btbp5me&sigt=11kc0qd41&sigi=11riggfps&age=1424102400&fr2=p%3As%2Cv%3Av&hsimp=yhs-001&hspart=mozilla&tt=b

While Aerys was a "purist," he was purist in the tradition of the Egyptian Pharohs who married their own blood because they were considered "gods," at one point. We see the Starks also somewhat purists, which in this story and in this context, has a direct relationship to their own particular magic, dragons/warg.

As I said, my take on the story is that Elias mother appoached Aerys to spite Twyin for not marrying their children to one another, (which Elia later paid dearly for), and that she subtly suggested the loss of Dorne if a marriage didn't take place, (again, that GOT), to strenghten those ties.

We also know that Aerys was furious because he thought the Dornish may have betrayed Rhaegar, so he expected their support and wanted it. The reason he passed over Aegon may have been because of the betrayal that he thought took place as much as that Aegon was Dornish. (And lets not forget Aerys himself has Dornish blood, as well as every other kind of blood in the kingdom).

Aerys looked down upon on "all the beasts of the fields," and I imagine that would have also included the Starks and Lyanna, because that "pale girl from the north with ice in her veins like all her people," as Oberyn states, would likely have been no more welcomed and considered "other" or a foreigner as much as Elia would have been.