R+L =J v.135

[Ygritte]

Perhaps Ned made it more difficult for people to actually show the child's existence when he had been long gone from Dorne. Perhaps, only when he had reached the heights of KL. Or even further north in his journey. If people never see a child, until Ned reaches a certain castle, in everyone's mind, the child will have come from somewhere around that castle..

And as people believe that the mother could have been either from the south (Ashara/Wylla), or north (Fisherman's daughter), it would appear that no one knows exactly where Ned first appeared with a baby.. Had Jon been seen in Dorne by Ned's men, or had Ned had Jon with him when he arrived from Dorne at KL, or wherever he first went, people would have thought that Ned already had the baby when boarding his ship.. It appears they don't (that's why there is the fisherman's daughter story, I guess), so Ned had succeeded in keeping it vague as to when he claimed Jon, and where that was.

Rhaella had Viserys crowned on Dragonstone, so of course Viserys and Dany see/saw Viserys as Viserys III :)

Viserys was Viserys III, but Aegon would have been Aegon VI.

And by the time Ned is returning to Winterfell with the baby, it's a really small party: him, Howland, baby!Jon, and probably a wet nurse. I think they could have traveled without attracting a lot of notice if they needed to.

Robert probably should have put it together, but IMO he's blinded by his own vices. He doesn't second guess Ned's war bastard because of course everybody has a war bastard or five. ;) Ned couldn't count on that, but it ended up working.

[Lord Varys]

We have no reason to believe that Ned brought Jon with him back to KL when he returned with Lyanna's corpse. That would have been ... unwise. Robert may be stupid but others are clearly more perceptive.

I don't think he mentioned the child to anyone at that time, but hushed it up as bastards usually are. If I remember correctly, then Wylla is with Jon already at Winterfell when Cat arrives there, suggesting that somebody else - Howland Reed? - accompanied them there before Ned/Cat even began their journey home. The Trident cannot have been all that far away when Ned rode into battle after his wedding - which means that Cat had to remain at Riverrun/in the South for at least nine months before she began her journey North. Clearly Jon was not with Ned during that time.

Ned would also have concocted a story to obscure the precise age and birthday of the boy, to prevent people from drawing the right conclusion. Since Cat thinks Robb is older than Jon - when this may in fact not be the case -, he may have let her believe he fathered the child after their marriage - but the people on the Three Sisters clearly believe otherwise, making it likely that no clear date was ever given. In fact, people may have begun to tell and invent tales about Eddard Stark's bastard all by themselves, as it it was unclear who the mother was - making it easy for some people to add a little meat to a story about Ned Stark.

[sj4iy]

We have no reason to believe that Ned brought Jon with him back to KL when he returned with Lyanna's corpse. That would have been ... unwise. Robert may be stupid but others are clearly more perceptive.

I don't think he mentioned the child to anyone at that time, but hushed it up as bastards usually are. If I remember correctly, then Wylla is with Jon already at Winterfell when Cat arrives there, suggesting that somebody else - Howland Reed? - accompanied them there before Ned/Cat even began their journey home. The Trident cannot have been all that far away when Ned rode into battle after his wedding - which means that Cat had to remain at Riverrun/in the South for at least nine months before she began her journey North. Clearly Jon was not with Ned during that time.

Ned would also have concocted a story to obscure the precise age and birthday of the boy, to prevent people from drawing the right conclusion. Since Cat thinks Robb is older than Jon - when this may in fact not be the case -, he may have let her believe he fathered the child after their marriage - but the people on the Three Sisters clearly believe otherwise, making it likely that no clear date was ever given. In fact, people may have begun to tell and invent tales about Eddard Stark's bastard all by themselves, as it it was unclear who the mother was - making it easy for some people to add a little meat to a story about Ned Stark.

Actually, we know Ned didn't bring Jon back with him...as you said, he sent Jon ahead with a wetnurse while he did other things, and Cat found Jon with his wetnurse installed at Winterfell when she returned from Riverrun with Robb.

[Ygritte]

We have no reason to believe that Ned brought Jon with him back to KL when he returned with Lyanna's corpse. That would have been ... unwise. Robert may be stupid but others are clearly more perceptive.

I don't think he mentioned the child to anyone at that time, but hushed it up as bastards usually are. If I remember correctly, then Wylla is with Jon already at Winterfell when Cat arrives there, suggesting that somebody else - Howland Reed? - accompanied them there before Ned/Cat even began their journey home. The Trident cannot have been all that far away when Ned rode into battle after his wedding - which means that Cat had to remain at Riverrun/in the South for at least nine months before she began her journey North. Clearly Jon was not with Ned during that time.

Ned would also have concocted a story to obscure the precise age and birthday of the boy, to prevent people from drawing the right conclusion. Since Cat thinks Robb is older than Jon - when this may in fact not be the case -, he may have let her believe he fathered the child after their marriage - but the people on the Three Sisters clearly believe otherwise, making it likely that no clear date was ever given. In fact, people may have begun to tell and invent tales about Eddard Stark's bastard all by themselves, as it it was unclear who the mother was - making it easy for some people to add a little meat to a story about Ned Stark.

Yeah, I don't think he took the baby to KL at all.

Claiming to be Ned Stark's baby mama might have been a common boast among young ladies of the time :lol:

Actually, we know Ned didn't bring Jon back with him...as you said, he sent Jon ahead with a wetnurse while he did other things, and Cat found Jon with his wetnurse installed at Winterfell when she returned from Riverrun with Robb.

Ah yes, forgot that. Even easier, then, I think--Howland takes the baby and the wetnurse and they can pose as a family on their travels. Howland goes out rarely enough that I don't think he's all that recognizable to most people.

[Alia of the knife]

http://www.ew.com/article/2015/03/10/this-weeks-cover-game-thrones-season-5

Is that Arya on one of the covers? Makeup? Photoshop? It doesn't look like Maisie to me.

Emilia is gorgeous but her eyebrows have a life of their own.

Jon looks like... he was electrocuted (Hair) and a little bit constipated.

Tyrion's photo is decent, I guess.

Yes, it is Maisie.

There is a head shot of Maisie and Emilia looking up and straight, and they almost look like the same person minus the hair color, (though Emilias hair is quite dark), but yes, their eyebrows are off the chain. :P

[markg171]

We have no reason to believe that Ned brought Jon with him back to KL when he returned with Lyanna's corpse. That would have been ... unwise. Robert may be stupid but others are clearly more perceptive.

I don't think he mentioned the child to anyone at that time, but hushed it up as bastards usually are. If I remember correctly, then Wylla is with Jon already at Winterfell when Cat arrives there, suggesting that somebody else - Howland Reed? - accompanied them there before Ned/Cat even began their journey home. The Trident cannot have been all that far away when Ned rode into battle after his wedding - which means that Cat had to remain at Riverrun/in the South for at least nine months before she began her journey North. Clearly Jon was not with Ned during that time.

Ned would also have concocted a story to obscure the precise age and birthday of the boy, to prevent people from drawing the right conclusion. Since Cat thinks Robb is older than Jon - when this may in fact not be the case -, he may have let her believe he fathered the child after their marriage - but the people on the Three Sisters clearly believe otherwise, making it likely that no clear date was ever given. In fact, people may have begun to tell and invent tales about Eddard Stark's bastard all by themselves, as it it was unclear who the mother was - making it easy for some people to add a little meat to a story about Ned Stark.

Well it's ambiguous as to when Cat returned to Winterfell

He did more than that. The Starks were not like other men. Ned brought his bastard home with him, and called him “son” for all the north to see. When the wars were over at last, and Catelyn rode to Winterfell, Jon and his wet nurse had already taken up residence.

Cat says that she rode to Winterfell when the wars were over. But the war didn't end until Stannis took Dragonstone, which was 9 months after the Sack. Which means she stayed in Riverrun for 18 months after Ned left if we go by when all the wars ended like Catelyn says. But if she meant that she stayed there until Robert was on the throne, i.e the Sack, then yeah she only stayed in Riverrun for like 9 months.

I'm inclined to believe that she stayed until Dragonstone was taken though as otherwise she should have beat Ned home but she didn't, but we don't know what she means by "when the wars were over"

Actually, we know Ned didn't bring Jon back with him...as you said, he sent Jon ahead with a wetnurse while he did other things, and Cat found Jon with his wetnurse installed at Winterfell when she returned from Riverrun with Robb.

Wrong.

He did more than that. The Starks were not like other men. Ned brought his bastard home with him, and called him “son” for all the north to see. When the wars were over at last, and Catelyn rode to Winterfell, Jon and his wet nurse had already taken up residence.

[IceFire125]

Regarding Ned's plan in having Howland and Wylla bringing Jon (the truth, the secret) to Winterfell.

It struck him suddenly that he might return to Winterfell by sea. Ned was no sailor, and ordinarily would have preferred the kingsroad, but if he took ship he could stop at Dragonstone and speak with Stannis Baratheon. Pycelle had sent a raven off across the water, with a polite letter from Ned requesting Lord Stannis to return to his seat on the small council. As yet, there had been no reply, but the silence only deepened his suspicions. Lord Stannis shared the secret Jon Arryn had died for, he was certain of it. The truth he sought might very well be waiting for him on the ancient island fortress of House Targaryen.

And when you have it, what then? Some secrets are safer kept hidden. Some secrets are too dangerous to share, even with those you love and trust.

“A quiet day,” he told Jon. “Nothing to report, except the wrong-way rangers.”

“The wrong-way rangers?” Jon asked.

Kedge grinned. “A pair of knights. Went riding off an hour ago, south along the kingsroad. When Dywen saw them buggering off, he said the southron fools were riding the wrong way.”

“I see,” said Jon.

He found out more from Dywen himself, as the old forester sucked down a bowl of barley broth in the barracks. “Aye, m’lord, I saw them. Horpe and Massey, it were. Claimed Stannis sent ’em out, but never said where or what for or when they would be back.”

Ser Richard Horpe and Ser Justin Massey were both queen’s men, and high in the king’s councils. A pair of common freeriders would have served if all that Stannis had in mind was scouting, Jon Snow reflected, but knights are better suited to act as messengers or envoys. Cotter Pyke had sent word from Eastwatch that the Onion Lord and Salladhor Saan had set sail for White Harbor to treat with Lord Manderly. It made sense that Stannis would send out other envoys. His Grace was not a patient man.

Whether the wrong-way rangers would return was another question. Knights they might be, but they did not know the north. There will be eyes along the kingsroad, not all of them friendly. It was none of Jon’s concern, though. Let Stannis have his secrets. The gods know that I have mine.

[Ser Creighton]

Yes, it is Maisie.

There is a head shot of Maisie and Emilia looking up and straight, and they almost look like the same person minus the hair color, (though Emilias hair is quite dark), but yes, their eyebrows are off the chain. :P

How about this shot of Mercy?

http://www.cnet.com/news/arya-stark-gets-lady-like-makeover-in-game-of-thrones-season-5/

It has recently been revealed by a fellow poster that what ever cast members say must be true. Well I have a video showing that this must in fact be true and it comes from EW which is a legit source.

Dink is dead on in his understanding of the show and Emilia reveals the biggest secret. Oh and Kit knows nothing.

[corbon]

OK, a question. Why would Aerys appoint Viserys his heir over Aegon? Neither of them is remotely old enough to rule. Rhaegar is dead. What's the point?

I'd suggest that it was to do with his suspicions towards Dorne. He believed that the Dornish had betrayed him at the Trident, and he was keeping Elia and her children hostage to Dornish good behaviour. Disinheriting Aegon is a way to limit (imagined) Dornish ambition.

I agree. At least, I too can't see any other feasible reason.

With that idea, it would make no sense for Aerys not to ensure that the news of the change was not widely known.

Can anyone think of an alternative reason for Aerys switching heirs where it would make any sense for him not to spread the news widely?

If he is paranoid, why spread the news - its only going to piss off the Dornish?

Not sure thats a solid argument, but its not terribly bad either.

However, even if Aerys did intend to 'disseminate the news', would he disseminate it to everyone? Was he rational enough by this time? Why does no other source comment on this?

I still don't see any reason why the KG at ToJ would have got this news. They are in an isolated location and won't be getting news often, easily, or unless one of the few people that know where they are decides they need to know. The news they have is clearly post-sack, and thus more likely to have originated with the victorious rebels disseminating their news, which is highly relevant to the ToJ, whereas Viserys' few extra weeks of heirship is not really relevant or interesting for the rebels.

When you name a new heir it's not something you want to keep secret. It seems unlikely they would know all about the Sack and Viserys' flight to Dragonstone and not know about this.

Not at all. Its all about their source. We know they have news from post-sack. We know the (ex)rebels will certainly be disseminating news of their victory and the fate of the Targaryens as fast and as wide as possible. Its very likely therefore that the (ex)rebel pronouncements are the originating source of the KG's data (brought to them by their hidden allies), and those wouldn't include the irrelevance of Viserys' earlier heirship.

While I certainly entertain the idea that the trio don't know about the decree, I don't think we can say that is likely. They have heard the news of the Trident and the sack. They know where Viserys is. The know after the surrender of the Tyrells and the Redwynes at Storm's End that the war is lost and Viserys needs their help. Why do we assume they have not heard the news of the decree? It looks to be clutching at straws to me.

Its not straws. Its thinking.

How do they get (any) news at ToJ? Someone personally goes there who knows they are there, to tell them. Which probably happens rarely (very very rarely).

They must have a secret support, logistically (the Daynes?). Who is that someone? Are they a Rhaegar supporter? Are they at court? What information do they have access to?

Who do we know is definitely going to be disseminating information about the sack and the fates of the Targaryens far and wide at speed and with many resources? And is Viserys' early heirship relevant for those people?

All of this was in my personal 'most likely' narrative (it has plenty of internal options, not a strict lineal story) long before TWoIaF came out. Nothing in it has so far made any significant change to that narrative necessary. I didn't, and still don't, think that the information the KG at ToJ had originated with Aerys - it includes his death for goodness sake!

[addicted to snow]

The 3 Kingsgaurds were ordered by Rhaegar to stay @ the Tower long before Jon was born & his sex was known... Rhaegar ordered them to stay @ the tower in order to keep them out of King's Landing while he overthrew the Mad King so their integrity would not be questioned...

They broke protocol when R headed north & they stayed at the tower, long before Jon's Birth... Therefore Jon's Birth could not have been a factor...

---

All this BS about Viserys being declared heir is nothing but a means of inciting intrigue in order to sell more TWOIAF Books... The ASOIAF Novels are a standalone series, meaning that nothing that is in TWOIAF matters.

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

I don't think he mentioned the child to anyone at that time, but hushed it up as bastards usually are. If I remember correctly, then Wylla is with Jon already at Winterfell when Cat arrives there, suggesting that somebody else - Howland Reed? - accompanied them there before Ned/Cat even began their journey home. The Trident cannot have been all that far away when Ned rode into battle after his wedding - which means that Cat had to remain at Riverrun/in the South for at least nine months before she began her journey North. Clearly Jon was not with Ned during that time.

There isn't much to give hints about how much time passed between Neds wedding and the Trident, but the little bit that we have suggests a timeframe close to 9 months.

There is nothing that suggests only a short time..

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

Well it's ambiguous as to when Cat returned to Winterfell

Cat says that she rode to Winterfell when the wars were over. But the war didn't end until Stannis took Dragonstone, which was 9 months after the Sack. Which means she stayed in Riverrun for 18 months after Ned left if we go by when all the wars ended like Catelyn says. But if she meant that she stayed there until Robert was on the throne, i.e the Sack, then yeah she only stayed in Riverrun for like 9 months.

I'm inclined to believe that she stayed until Dragonstone was taken though as otherwise she should have beat Ned home but she didn't, but we don't know what she means by "when the wars were over"

No. Not at all. Cat spend the entire pregnancy at Riverrun. With the pregnancy starting in the first two weeks of marriage.

Catelyn also says that she and Ned spend the first year of their marriage apart. A period or 18 months or more wouldn't be described as a year, I'd say.

Why would Ned stay until Dragonstone was taken? He had no force at sea... No ships... Nothing that could help Stannis..

The war ended with the Sack as the final battle, I think, with Roberts coronation shortly thereafter... Despite Dragonstone not yet having been taken. In the same sense that the War of Conquest ended in 1 AC, despite 4 AC - 13 AC being a war to complete the Conquest, as well as 157 - 161 AC...

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

double post

[corbon]

Where is ToJ described as an abandoned watchtower? Is it in the App?

[Alia of the knife]

How about this shot of Mercy?

http://www.cnet.com/news/arya-stark-gets-lady-like-makeover-in-game-of-thrones-season-5/

It has recently been revealed by a fellow poster that what ever cast members say must be true. Well I have a video showing that this must in fact be true and it comes from EW which is a legit source.

Dink is dead on in his understanding of the show and Emilia reveals the biggest secret. Oh and Kit knows nothing.

Yessssssss, its all coming together......bwahahahaha

[addicted to snow]

Where is ToJ described as an abandoned watchtower? Is it in the App?

Well, there could not have been much to it, If 2 people & some horses pulled it down... Just a small, 2-story, unmortered stone structure...

[Alia of the knife]

In terms of news getting to the TOJ, why would the assumption be that "they" waited for news?

They wouldn't send one of their people out and about in disguise as a scout into town to actually gather news?

News usually travelled not jusy by Martins ravens, but traveling minstrels, i.e., "singers."

[IceFire125]

In terms of news getting to the TOJ, why would the assumption be that "they" waited for news?

They wouldn't send one of their people out and about in disguise as a scout into town to actually gather news?

News usually travelled not jusy by Martins ravens, but traveling minstrels, i.e., "singers."

Which also adds Rhaegar to also have his 'little' spies in the region as well. If Rhaegar had the will and plan to have Lyanna be hidden from everyone, it's not far-fetched that he definitely knew Varys was very much active during his time being away. And thus must have also had spies in his employment, if not, servants who knew little about Rhaegar's plans and where abouts (so not to risk being known by outside people) and only be summoned by Rhaegar and or the two Kingsguards (to give them news).

[Lord Varys]

I think we should assume that Ned stayed at least at KL for Robert's coronation and the subsequent wedding (it is very unlikely that Ned was not at Robert's side when he finally married). They apparently also had some bonding and mourning time together, which could mean that he stayed around a year or so in the South following his parting from Catelyn at Riverrun. And Cat may have attended the royal wedding, too.

It may be that Catelyn later on traveled North from Riverrun whereas Ned took a ship at KL. It really seems they did not arrive there together, as Catelyn apparently chanced on Wylla and Jon without Ned.

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

The first time Cat saw Moat Cailin, didn't Ned had to reassure her it was safe? That means they traveled north together..