R+L =J v.135

[Mithras]

The first duty of the Kingsguard was to defend the king from harm or threat. The white knights were sworn to obey the king’s commands as well, to keep his secrets, counsel him when counsel was requested and keep silent when it was not, serve his pleasure and defend his name and honor. Strictly speaking, it was purely the king’s choice whether or not to extend Kingsguard protection to others, even those of royal blood. Some kings thought it right and proper to dispatch Kingsguard to serve and defend their wives and children, siblings, aunts, uncles, and cousins of greater and lesser degree, and occasionally even their lovers, mistresses, and bastards. But others preferred to use household knights and men-at-arms for those purposes, whilst keeping their seven as their own personal guard, never far from their sides.

If the queen had commanded me to protect Hizdahr, I would have had no choice but to obey. But Daenerys Targaryen had never established a proper Queensguard even for herself nor issued any commands in respect to her consort. The world was simpler when I had a lord commander to decide such matters, Selmy reflected.

Does this mean that Gerold Hightower hailed Rhaegar as his King although Aerys was alive? We know that Rhaegar wanted to remove Aerys and make changes. Perhaps, he started doing those changes right with the three KG at ToJ, who probably bent knee to him as the king. The allegiances of the KG are known to change. There are many examples.

[BearQueen87]

The first duty of the Kingsguard was to defend the king from harm or threat. The white knights were sworn to obey the king’s commands as well, to keep his secrets, counsel him when counsel was requested and keep silent when it was not, serve his pleasure and defend his name and honor. Strictly speaking, it was purely the king’s choice whether or not to extend Kingsguard protection to others, even those of royal blood. Some kings thought it right and proper to dispatch Kingsguard to serve and defend their wives and children, siblings, aunts, uncles, and cousins of greater and lesser degree, and occasionally even their lovers, mistresses, and bastards. But others preferred to use household knights and men-at-arms for those purposes, whilst keeping their seven as their own personal guard, never far from their sides.

If the queen had commanded me to protect Hizdahr, I would have had no choice but to obey. But Daenerys Targaryen had never established a proper Queensguard even for herself nor issued any commands in respect to her consort. The world was simpler when I had a lord commander to decide such matters, Selmy reflected.

Does this mean that Gerold Hightower hailed Rhaegar as his King although Aerys was alive? We know that Rhaegar wanted to remove Aerys and make changes. Perhaps, he started doing those changes right with the three KG at ToJ, who probably bent knee to him as the king. The allegiances of the KG are known to change. There are many examples.

I don't think so because Hightower tells Ned in the dream that Aerys would still be sitting on the Iron Throne if they were at KL during the Sack. So Hightower considered Aerys to be King if he had lived through the Sack. Arthur and Whent are a different story, I think.

[Ygrain]

I don't think so because Hightower tells Ned in the dream that Aerys would still be sitting on the Iron Throne if they were at KL during the Sack. So Hightower considered Aerys to be King if he had lived through the Sack. Arthur and Whent are a different story, I think.

Right.

[SFDanny]

Bear queen makes a very good point, but it's not only that. We have from numerous references in the text the fact that Aerys HAD extended the duties of his Kingsguard beyond just his own protection to that of Rhaegar, Rhaella and Viserys. They would have to follow the orders of those people as long as the orders didn't contradict Aerys's own.

[Mithras]

I don't think so because Hightower tells Ned in the dream that Aerys would still be sitting on the Iron Throne if they were at KL during the Sack. So Hightower considered Aerys to be King if he had lived through the Sack. Arthur and Whent are a different story, I think.

“When King’s Landing fell, Ser Jaime slew your king with a golden sword, and I wondered where you were.”

“Far away,” Ser Gerold said, “or Aerys would yet sit the Iron Throne, and our false brother would burn in seven hells.”

Why did he say just Aerys instead of King Aerys? And if you read carefully, all of the things he said would still be true even if he denounced Aerys. Surely they would not allow Jaime slay Aerys even if he was no longer their kings.

[BearQueen87]

“When King’s Landing fell, Ser Jaime slew your king with a golden sword, and I wondered where you were.”

“Far away,” Ser Gerold said, “or Aerys would yet sit the Iron Throne, and our false brother would burn in seven hells.”

Why did he say just Aerys instead of King Aerys? And if you read carefully, all of the things he said would still be true even if he denounced Aerys. Surely they would not allow Jaime slay Aerys even if he was no longer their kings.

Aerys is sitting on the iron Throne in this scenario, according to Hightower. How else is Aerys going to be sitting on the IT if not as King?? "We don't consider him a king anymore, but he can totes keep that chair!"

[Mithras]

Aerys is sitting on the iron Throne in this scenario, according to Hightower. How else is Aerys going to be sitting on the IT if not as King?? "We don't consider him a king anymore, but he can totes keep that chair!"

Because Rhaegar, who was supposed to dethrone the Mad King was dead. They could not dethrone Aerys themselves, neither Rhaegar's babies.

[BearQueen87]

Because Rhaegar, who was supposed to dethrone the Mad King was dead. They could not dethrone Aerys themselves, neither Rhaegar's babies.

Why could they not dethrone Aerys themselves? Jaime did it. And Hightower condemned him for it, saying he was false and would burn in hell.

[Mithras]

Why could they not dethrone Aerys themselves? Jaime did it. And Hightower condemned him for it, saying he was false and would burn in hell.

Killing Aerys was never an option. Surely Rhaegar would not allow that. Without Rhaegar, they didnot have the legal authority or public support by themselves to dethrone Aerys.

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

If they saw Rhaegar as the true king, they wouldn't suddenly see Aerys as the true king because Rhaegar had died. They would look at Rhaegar's heirs, and Aerys wad not Rhaegars heir.

As Hightower still seems to have considered Aerys the true king, I guess he didn't see Rhaegar as his king, ever.

[BearQueen87]

If they saw Rhaegar as the true king, they wouldn't suddenly see Aerys as the true king because Rhaegar had died. They would look at Rhaegar's heirs, and Aerys wad not Rhaegars heir.

As Hightower still seems to have considered Aerys the true king, I guess he didn't see Rhaegar as his king, ever.

Yes exactly. If Hightower saw Rhaegar as his new king, he wouldn't suddenly switch back to Aerys. He'd look to baby boy Jon, present him as the new king and fight like mad get baby boy Jon his crown. The only reason Hightower is doing all this in the text is because the King and Rhaegar are dead.

[Mithras]

Yes exactly. If Hightower saw Rhaegar as his new king, he wouldn't suddenly switch back to Aerys. He'd look to baby boy Jon, present him as the new king and fight like mad get baby boy Jon his crown. The only reason Hightower is doing all this in the text is because the King and Rhaegar are dead.

The most important thing about this exchange is that it was a pissing contest. Even if Gerold managed to kill Jaime before he slew Aerys, he could do nothing against an army and Aerys would still be killed by somebody else. So, Aerys would not sit on the IT as Gerold boasted.

The KG can never put the lives of their kings in danger. So, going into the throne room and telling Aerys that he should step down because the baby in their arms was the true king is not something they could do.

Instead of hypothetical scenarios during a pissing contest, we should focus on what the three KG were doing at that particular place. Did Aerys command them to stay there? If not, who told them to stay and by what authority?

[Lord Varys]

I imagine that Gerold meant that if he and the others had been back in KL Rhaegar would not have lost at the Trident.

[Ygrain]

Instead of hypothetical scenarios during a pissing contest, we should focus on what the three KG were doing at that particular place. Did Aerys command them to stay there? If not, who told them to stay and by what authority?

There is a SSM stating that Rhaegar indeed had the authority to order the KG to stay.

[BearQueen87]

The KG can never put the lives of their kings in danger. So, going into the throne room and telling Aerys that he should step down because the baby in their arms was the true king is not something they could do.

Well, no because that would be ludercrious and not the idea I had in mind. fAegon has the life Jon would have had. I'm sure the 3KG were coming up with some sort of plan that involved presenting Jon as true King.

Instead of hypothetical scenarios during a pissing contest, we should focus on what the three KG were doing at that particular place. Did Aerys command them to stay there? If not, who told them to stay and by what authority?

We've discussed this multiple times I think but brief rundown of what I can remember:

-Hightower tells R to go back to KL because WAR

--Rhaegar agrees to go

--Dayne and Whent refuse to let R travel alone because WAR and he is, at least, their prince and they are his sworn shields.

--R, D, and W travel to either KL or somewhere with a large army that can take R the rest of the way (say, SE)

--Hightower is left at the TOJ, a cunning plan on R's part because guess who is in that TOJ--the new wife of the crown prince and what does she have in her belly? A baby. Someone has to protect them. R forces H's hand.

--D and W make it back to the TOJ from delivering R

--There is probably a lot of arguing over what has been happening during this whole time that R and L were hiding out

--Very soon after they get the news that R, Aerys, Aegon, are all dead.

--L gives birth

--Hello Baby Boy Jon

--Oh shit we have a new king. Oh shit oh shit we are KG. Oh shit Priority #1 kicks in: protect the boy!

--Oh hi Ned. 'Sup

--DEATH

[Mithras]

I imagine that Gerold meant that if he and the others had been back in KL Rhaegar would not have lost at the Trident.

No, they claimed that if they were at the Trident, they would win the battle and Robert would be slain. Later, they claimed that if they were at the KL during the Sack, they would save Aerys and repel the traitors so that Aerys would still sit on the IT.

[Ygrain]

Well, no because that would be ludercrious and not the idea I had in mind. fAegon has the life Jon would have had. I'm sure the 3KG were coming up with some sort of plan that involved presenting Jon as true King.

We've discussed this multiple times I think but brief rundown of what I can remember:

-Hightower tells R to go back to KL because WAR

--Rhaegar agrees to go

--Dayne and Whent refuse to let R travel alone because WAR and he is, at least, their prince and they are his sworn shields.

--R, D, and W travel to either KL or somewhere with a large army that can take R the rest of the way (say, SE)

--Hightower is left at the TOJ, a cunning plan on R's part because guess who is in that TOJ--the new wife of the crown prince and what does she have in her belly? A baby. Someone has to protect them. R forces H's hand.

--D and W make it back to the TOJ from delivering R

--There is probably a lot of arguing over what has been happening during this whole time that R and L were hiding out

--Very soon after they get the news that R, Aerys, Aegon, are all dead.

--L gives birth

--Hello Baby Boy Jon

--Oh shit we have a new king. Oh shit oh shit we are KG. Oh shit Priority #1 kicks in: protect the boy!

--Oh hi Ned. 'Sup

--DEATH

Lol, love your summary :D

[SFDanny]

--Dayne and Whent refuse to let R travel alone because WAR and he is, at least, their prince and they are his sworn shields.

--R, D, and W travel to either KL or somewhere with a large army that can take R the rest of the way (say, SE)

--Hightower is left at the TOJ, a cunning plan on R's part because guess who is in that TOJ--the new wife of the crown prince and what does she have in her belly? A baby. Someone has to protect them. R forces H's hand.

--D and W make it back to the TOJ from delivering R

It's important to note that while we have nothing to suggest this is precisely how it went - particularly who would have traveled with Rhaegar back to King's Landing and then back to the tower - it makes perfect sense that Rhaegar doesn't travel alone. I think probably either Dayne or Whent are more likely to have stayed with Hightower at the tower, because simply they are the two we know are closest to Rhaegar, and likely to Lyanna at this point. Hightower staying by himself at the tower has both advantages and disadvantages for Rhaegar, so, my speculation would be Whent travels with Rhaegar, and Dayne stays with Hightower and Lyanna. Having a Dornishmen in Dorne certainly makes sense for the needs of the tower, and Dayne is the most likely person Rhaegar would trust with Lyanna. Having Whent travel all the way to King's Landing and back also brings up the possibility of what or who he could bring back with him, but that's another thread. That is not to say your theory is wrong, BQ, it works as well. Good post!

[MtnLion]

No, they claimed that if they were at the Trident, they would win the battle and Robert would be slain. Later, they claimed that if they were at the KL during the Sack, they would save Aerys and repel the traitors so that Aerys would still sit on the IT.

Is this based upon the idea that the Kingsguard act alone? Jaime was in command of forces in the Red Keep that protected the Red Keep and Aerys, he didn't have to do it on his own. At the Trident the Kingsguard were in command of the army under Rhaegar's direction. Arthur Dayne is cited as being a particular picky military commander.

[Alia of the knife]

I actually do like most of the show but when they have time for a Greyworm/Missandei love story and then state that they are cutting this character/storyline for a lack of time, that's what annoys me. Also, I am apprehensive about S5 becoz until now D&D did have the books to develop the characters and now they have to do it on their own. And I'm not too confident in their skills.

Now this I agree with.

And all joking aside, they did some things that I don't really can't fathom, like:

- Robb bringing his pregnant wife into hostile territory. I think they did that just to add more shock value to an already shocking event, (which Martin based upon an actual event callled the Black Dinner that took place in Medieval Scotland when the young king invited some of the members of clan Douglas with guarentees of safe passage, then slaughtered them in the end).

- Turning Loras into a stereotype, (Sansa and Loras discussing their wedding in a "what not to wear" moment).

- Oberyn's sex life was a factor, but not the focus in the book. A prince of Dorne taking up residence in kingpin LF brothels was a little too much like a scene from Deadwood, making him look more debauched than dangerous.

- In the books, Jaimes character breaking from Cersei is a huge part of his redemption arc in terms of his liberation.

And this was with the books as their guide. I predict it will fall somewhere between Deadwood and Rome, which alone, were fabulous productions, but they aren't GOT, so I'm concerned they fall into the pattern of what was successful in the moment for HBO when the first two productions weren't really handled well in the end.

However, thats my rant, back to KG thread, I mean, topic.