R+L =J v.135

[sj4iy]

Was this before or after Han crashed his plane on a golf course?

He only crashed because R2-D2 and C3P0 were stabbing him to death.

[BearQueen87]

It just occurs to me that in our own world, Lucifer was also referred as Lightbringer/bearer, I wonder what the implications are in aSoIaF and AA?

It's a good question. There are two less than happy references with LB. There's the Lucifer one that you just wrote of, and then Moorcock's Strombringer springs to mind. That....was not a happy sword. But at the same time, Lucifer was once the most beautiful angel in heaven and there has been a lot of "sympathy for the devil" material written, like Milton. And Elric wouldn't be able to do some of the stuff he does without Stormbringer.

[Kingmonkey]

Yes, Ned probably feels guilt over Ashara's tragic death but I doubt he is the one that dishonored her. And I got the impression that that was what KingMonkey was implying. My point is that if Ned had an affair with Ashara which got her pregnant, and he then abandons her for Cat, and finally she kills herself, we would have some indication of this in Ned's thoughts. Ned is not someone who can forget the past, in fact he is tormented by it.

Considering who it is that gives us the word "dishonoured" we should be careful what we assume it means. Could be as simple as having sex with.

Ned doesn't think about Ashara, but then he also doesn't think about who Jon's parents are. If GRRM wants us to keep guessing about this, he'd obviously have to avoid Ned thinking about Ashara, so that argument just doesn't really work out. It would be a literary necessity to NOT have Ned thinking about Ashara. There's an awful lot that Ned doesn't think about, really. This many books in, could R+L=J really have remained a secret if Ned was still alive and POVing? Ned got the chop so that GRRM could keep his secrets.

However, we do have reasons to think see a link between Ned and Ashara. The KoTLT story suggests that Ned was strongly attracted to her, Edric Dayne believes that Ashara and Ned had an affair, and Ned demands that Ashara's name is never mentioned in Winterfell, which is frankly very odd if there wasn't something going on between them.

What's the argument for Brandon? Ultimately it mostly seems to rely on Brandon not being able to keep his pants on around any attractive woman. That's not really much to go on. Pretty much the only good reason for thinking Brandon rather than Ned is that we're given more evidence for Ned so it's gotta be a red herring. Isn't that an argument most people really hate when it's used as a counter to R+L=J?

[Alia of the knife]

It's a good question. There are two less than happy references with LB. There's the Lucifer one that you just wrote of, and then Moorcock's Strombringer springs to mind. That....was not a happy sword. But at the same time, Lucifer was once the most beautiful angel in heaven and there has been a lot of "sympathy for the devil" material written, like Milton. And Elric wouldn't be able to do some of the stuff he does without Stormbringer.

Look at you reading Elric. :) Good points and very true.

There is also the burden power brings.

[Alia of the knife]

Considering who it is that gives us the word "dishonoured" we should be careful what we assume it means. Could be as simple as having sex with.

Ned doesn't think about Ashara, but then he also doesn't think about who Jon's parents are. If GRRM wants us to keep guessing about this, he'd obviously have to avoid Ned thinking about Ashara, so that argument just doesn't really work out. It would be a literary necessity to NOT have Ned thinking about Ashara. There's an awful lot that Ned doesn't think about, really. This many books in, could R+L=J really have remained a secret if Ned was still alive and POVing? Ned got the chop so that GRRM could keep his secrets.

However, we do have reasons to think see a link between Ned and Ashara. The KoTLT story suggests that Ned was strongly attracted to her, Edric Dayne believes that Ashara and Ned had an affair, and Ned demands that Ashara's name is never mentioned in Winterfell, which is frankly very odd if there wasn't something going on between them.

What's the argument for Brandon? Ultimately it mostly seems to rely on Brandon not being able to keep his pants on around any attractive woman. That's not really much to go on. Pretty much the only good reason for thinking Brandon rather than Ned is that we're given more evidence for Ned so it's gotta be a red herring. Isn't that an argument most people really hate when it's used as a counter to R+L=J?

But, I think it's also the clues/tactics that the author uses.

The info., we get on Brandon followed chapters later by the info., on Ashara just seems theres a pattern to his hint-dropping.

[Kingmonkey]

It just occurs to me that in our own world, Lucifer was also referred as Lightbringer/bearer, I wonder what the implications are in aSoIaF and AA?

Lucifer is a latin rendering of the Hebrew name Heylel ben Shahar, by a roundabout route. It means bringer or bearer of light, but is a reference to the morning star. Heylel ben Shahar apparently translates to "shining one son of morning" which is taken to indicate the morning star, Venus.

I suspect that GRRM just borrowed the phrase as a cool way to describe the morning star. House Dayne seem to have both Swords of the Morning and Swords of the Evening, and of course Venus gets referred to as both the Morning Star and the Evening Star.

[Kingmonkey]

But, I think it's also the clues/tactics that the author uses.

The info., we get on Brandon followed chapters later by the info., on Ashara just seems theres a pattern to his hint-dropping.

Yeah I do get what you mean there, and I certainly wouldn't dismiss Brandon as a possibility. If it is Brandon though, what's the explanation for Ned being so angered by Ashara's name even being mentioned? That speaks to me much more of a personal involvement.

[Ser Creighton]

It just occurs to me that in our own world, Lucifer was also referred as Lightbringer/bearer, I wonder what the implications are in aSoIaF and AA?

Well it depends, what's in a name? This thread is sometimes called shinny when new, in Hebrew Lucifer means Shining One. So clearly the thread is evil, I blame BQ, I warned her about this. The Latin Vulgate name for Venus is Lucifer, the Morning Star. It is also means bringer of dawn. I don't know if Martin is going to follow the bible. The watch is the light that Brings the Dawn.

I would say that it's really not about a name or a weapon, that it is man that is the real danger. Doesn't really matter what your name is, Ramsey means garlic, I love Garlic though the character, really would not mind offing him.

See there are some really weird things in the book, take Asshai, they worship the light. Yet they live in a land of Darkness, shadow, poison, toxic water and darkness, the heart of Asshai is called the Shadow heart. Very concerned about the evil Darkness yet they live in Darkness and come on shadow babies and burnings and blood sacrifice and lots of horrible shit.

Then you got the Others and the Knight king and they are pretty bad too, yet they live in a land of all white, and near a wall of light. Yet Darkness is their gig. Dragons have been compared to it, and alluded too, but so has a sword. Chances are the sword is wrong and so are the dragons, I think both will actually allude to the true lightbringer, but it may also come down to perspective. You know if you are religious which Martin is not, but if you were it may bother you. It could be he just likes the name, Lucifer is Venus and Venus is the Morning Star, and it also mean love. So I guesss maybe perspective, to someone like Xaro Dany and her dragons might me mean the devil. To the Knight King Jon might mean Demon who greets with fire, but to Shireen he might mean Morning Star. And to Dany he might mean you know whatever.

So I think perspective is the answer. You go with roman or greek history Venus, is not bad, morning star is not bad. Yet they all mean lucifer.

[Kingmonkey]

So I think perspective is the answer. You go with roman or greek history Venus, is not bad, morning star is not bad. Yet they all mean lucifer.

Yep, but the Satan = Morning star thing is essentially an invention of the vulgate translation. The original Hewbrew passage is referring to a Babylonian king, and only by parallel to any fallen angel / adversary / whatever. Bizarre but true: the two people actually referred to in the Bible as the Morning Star are that Babylonian king of uncertain identity, and Jesus. Poor Venus has an undeserved bad rep!

[Ser Creighton]

He only crashed because R2-D2 and C3P0 were stabbing him to death.

And I just got the joke. Yep it took me that long to get it, I know you would think me "lightbulb" but no... literally just got it.

[Ser Creighton]

Yep, but the Satan = Morning star thing is essentially an invention of the vulgate translation. The original Hewbrew passage is referring to a Babylonian king, and only by parallel to any fallen angel / adversary / whatever. Bizarre but true: the two people actually referred to in the Bible as the Morning Star are that Babylonian king of uncertain identity, and Jesus. Poor Venus has an undeserved bad rep!

Well Venus has got a couple of reps as far as I know, none of them are really that good, but one of them is a hell of a lot of fun.

Finally watching Broadchurch season 2, episode one nobody say anything. About the show or Venus, I mean I just did, but that's different, I saw this thing on TMZ about her so consider myself well informed and unbiased.

[sj4iy]

And I just got the joke. Yep it took me that long to get it, I know you would think me "lightbulb" but no... literally just got it.

Hey, as long as you get there :)

[teej6]

Yeah I do get what you mean there, and I certainly wouldn't dismiss Brandon as a possibility. If it is Brandon though, what's the explanation for Ned being so angered by Ashara's name even being mentioned? That speaks to me much more of a personal involvement.

Ned's anger at Ashara's name being mentioned may not imply that he had an affair with her that resulted in her getting pregnant. It may simply be because he had feelings for Ashara at one point or because he didn't want to tarnish her name anymore that it already had been. Another reason probably is that Ned wanted to end the discussion/gossip about Jon's mother in WF once and for all.

[BearQueen87]

Well it depends, what's in a name? This thread is sometimes called shinny when new, in Hebrew Lucifer means Shining One. So clearly the thread is evil, I blame BQ, I warned her about this.

Does this mean I don't get any John Stamos when we hit 200 threads?

[Ser Creighton]

Hey, as long as you get there :)

Yeah well the short bus don't travel that fast apperantly but it does get there.

[Ser Creighton]

Does this mean I don't get any John Stamos when we hit 200 threads?

You can have whats left of him right after I introduce him to Jon as Lord Walder Frey.

Question? Aside from the obvious Snow White jokes and Jon, what is with the Little red riding hood imagery, the wolf and the red head? I think we have an idea where Jon and Mel are headed.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=YtcJ7gvJP0Q

Like I am not sure if it is actual video from the show but it seems legit.

[sj4iy]

Does this mean I don't get any John Stamos when we hit 200 threads?

I will get you John Stamos if it's revealed before 200.

[markg171]

Considering who it is that gives us the word "dishonoured" we should be careful what we assume it means. Could be as simple as having sex with.

Ned doesn't think about Ashara, but then he also doesn't think about who Jon's parents are. If GRRM wants us to keep guessing about this, he'd obviously have to avoid Ned thinking about Ashara, so that argument just doesn't really work out. It would be a literary necessity to NOT have Ned thinking about Ashara. There's an awful lot that Ned doesn't think about, really. This many books in, could R+L=J really have remained a secret if Ned was still alive and POVing? Ned got the chop so that GRRM could keep his secrets.

However, we do have reasons to think see a link between Ned and Ashara. The KoTLT story suggests that Ned was strongly attracted to her, Edric Dayne believes that Ashara and Ned had an affair, and Ned demands that Ashara's name is never mentioned in Winterfell, which is frankly very odd if there wasn't something going on between them.

What's the argument for Brandon? Ultimately it mostly seems to rely on Brandon not being able to keep his pants on around any attractive woman. That's not really much to go on. Pretty much the only good reason for thinking Brandon rather than Ned is that we're given more evidence for Ned so it's gotta be a red herring. Isn't that an argument most people really hate when it's used as a counter to R+L=J?

I haven't seen many people bring this up, but the best evidence is this IMO

“Under Harren’s roof he ate and drank with the wolves, and many of their sworn swords besides, barrowdown men and moose and bears and mermen. The dragon prince sang a song so sad it made the wolf maid sniffle, but when her pup brother teased her for crying she poured wine over his head. A black brother spoke, asking the knights to join the Night’s Watch. The storm lord drank down the knight of skulls and kisses in a wine-cup war. The crannogman saw a maid with laughing purple eyes dance with a white sword, a red snake, and the lord of griffins, and lastly with the quiet wolf... but only after the wild wolf spoke to her on behalf of a brother too shy to leave his bench.

“Amidst all this merriment, the little crannogman spied the three squires who’d attacked him. One served a pitchfork knight, one a porcupine, while the last attended a knight with two towers on his surcoat, a sigil all crannogmen know well.”

“The Freys,” said Bran. “The Freys of the Crossing.”

“Then, as now,” she agreed. “The wolf maid saw them too, and pointed them out to her brothers. ‘I could find you a horse, and some armor that might fit’, the pup offered. The little crannogman thanked him, but gave no answer. His heart was torn. Crannogmen are smaller than most, but just as proud. The lad was no knight, no more than any of his people. We sit a boat more often than a horse, and our hands are made for oars, not lances. Much as he wished to have his vengeance, he feared he would only make a fool of himself and shame his people. The quiet wolf had offered the little crannogman a place in his tent that night, but before he slept he knelt on the lakeshore, looking across the water to where the Isle of Faces would be, and said a prayer to the old gods of north and Neck...”

On the night that Ned danced with Ashara, Howland slept in his tent. So Ned wasn't getting laid that night unless he and Ashara went elsewhere to do the deed.

[Ser Creighton]

Wait we got Jon Snow white who is in a death like state and we know what woke up Snow White. We got Little Red with him and Yiggy and the Wolf, and Jon has a vision of himself in glass like armor. Cinderfells's glass slipper? If that is right that is to funny.

[Tom_Pigott]

I must say whilst this theory holds immense support amongst the show watchers(mostly) and book readers I am more inclined to lean towards the R+L=D theory and the B+A=J theory. There are numerous pieces of evidence, and apart from this the relation fits almost to well into such a diverse unpredictable series. Such a popularised theory almost cheapens such a dynamic world in my opinion and is way too typical of an ending to such a clearly devoted mystery.The textual evidence does in my mind point towards this theory but also lends itself to R+L=J which is such a great thing about the series. Not all the evidence points to one theory. You can probably bet the show will head towards R+L= J though as little if any know who Ashara is. Therefore I understand R+L=D and B+A=J to be more likely.