R+L =J v.135

[Ygrain]

I must say whilst this theory holds immense support amongst the show watchers(mostly) and book readers I am more inclined to lean towards the R+L=D theory and the B+A=J theory. There are numerous pieces of evidence, and apart from this the relation fits almost to well into such a diverse unpredictable series. Such a popularised theory almost cheapens such a dynamic world in my opinion and is way too typical of an ending to such a clearly devoted mystery.The textual evidence does in my mind point towards this theory but also lends itself to R+L=J which is such a great thing about the series. Not all the evidence points to one theory. You can probably bet the show will head towards R+L= J though as little if any know who Ashara is. Therefore I understand R+L=D and B+A=J to be more likely.

I must admit I have problem understanding what you are trying to say. Which evidence points towards which theory, and what does the direction of the show have to do with the way GRRM wrote his story?

[Tom_Pigott]

If I made myself unclear what I mean to say is that bits of evidence for the Tower of Joy and prior context can be interpreted to support either theory, myself stating that the evidence moreso points towards Daenerys being the daughter of Rhaegar and Lyanna. What I meant by the show was merely providing perspective on the two different entites; the show will adopt a simpler easier ending whilst GRRM I understand will provide a more detailed and unforeseen one.

[Ygrain]

You do realize, though, that Dany was born way after Lyanna died, right?

Also, R+L is not as easy to catch as its current popularity may seem to indicate, prior the beans were spilt, not many people figured it on their own.

[Tom_Pigott]

Hence yes the popularity being one of the show watchers. The time frames are a bit muddled though Jon being conceived at the beginning of the rebellion seems feasible. When do you suggest Daenerys was born and where?

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

Hence yes the popularity being one of the show watchers. The time frames are a bit muddled though Jon being conceived at the beginning of the rebellion seems feasible. When do you suggest Daenerys was born and where?

Jon towards the end of 283 AC, Dany close to the middle of 284 AC, with some 8 to 9 months in between. By the time Dany was born, Lyanna had been dead for months.

And Dany, it is stated, was born on Dragonstone

[Ygrain]

Hence yes the popularity being one of the show watchers. The time frames are a bit muddled though Jon being conceived at the beginning of the rebellion seems feasible. When do you suggest Daenerys was born and where?

Dany was born on Dragonstone, 9 months after the Sack of King's Landing. Per GRRM, Jon was born about 8-9 months before Dany, i.e. around the time of the Sack or somewhat later. The Rebellion lasted for about a year, which places his conception a couple of months into the Rebellion.

[WeaselPie]

Three-eyed dragon? :()

lol, oh well, you know what I meant (I hope). I must have been thinking of something else while typing that obvious error. Cheers.

[ReleaseTheHound]

"Lysa's apartments opened over a small garden, a circle of dirt and grass planted with blue flowers and ringed on all sides by tall white towers"

I just reread this in AGOT could be a hint to jon being surrounded/protected by the kingsguard someone has probably pointed it out but idk

[Jon Weirgaryen]

"Lysa's apartments opened over a small garden, a circle of dirt and grass planted with blue flowers and ringed on all sides by tall white towers"

I just reread this in AGOT could be a hint to jon being surrounded/protected by the kingsguard someone has probably pointed it out but idk

No, that one was new to me, albeit I must have read it more than once... still, white towers may be a weirwood tree grove, and some people have foretold Jon's body might be brought into one. Now they've got some theory fodder :)

[ReleaseTheHound]

No, that one was new to me, albeit I must have read it more than once... still, white towers may be a weirwood tree grove, and some people have foretold Jon's body might be brought into one. Now they've got some theory fodder :)

Actually yeah that would make more sense as the wording is plant and garden related I just saw "blue flowers" and tried to find any small significance

[Mithras]

Various quotes related to the sadness about R+L=J:

“Ah, Arya. You have a wildness in you, child. ‘The wolf blood,’ my father used to call it. Lyanna had a touch of it, and my brother Brandon more than a touch. It brought them both to an early grave.” Arya heard sadness in his voice; he did not often speak of his father, or of the brother and sister who had died before she was born.

“No,” Ned said with sadness in his voice. “Now it ends.”

The thought of Jon filled Ned with a sense of shame, and a sorrow too deep for words. If only he could see the boy again, sit and talk with him … pain shot through his broken leg, beneath the filthy grey plaster of his cast.

“I dreamed about the crow again last night. The one with three eyes. He flew into my bedchamber and told me to come with him, so I did. We went down to the crypts. Father was there, and we talked. He was sad.”

“And why was that?” Luwin peered through his tube.

“It was something to do about Jon, I think.” The dream had been deeply disturbing, more so than any of the other crow dreams.

They were almost at the end now, and Bran felt a sadness creeping over him. “And there’s my grandfather, Lord Rickard, who was beheaded by Mad King Aerys. His daughter Lyanna and his son Brandon are in the tombs beside him. Not me, another Brandon, my father’s brother. They’re not supposed to have statues, that’s only for the lords and the kings, but my father loved them so much he had them done.”

He went to the window seat, picked up a harp, and ran his fingers lightly over its silvery strings. Sweet sadness filled the room as man and wife and babe faded like the morning mist, only the music lingering behind to speed her on her way.

Meera strapped the wicker basket to Hodor’s back and helped lift Bran into it, easing his useless legs through the holes. He had a queer flutter in his belly. He knew what awaited them above, but that did not make it any less fearful. As they set off, he turned to give his father one last look, and it seemed to Bran that there was a sadness in Lord Eddard’s eyes, as if he did not want them to go.

Ned's sad ghost is waiting for Jon down there.

[sj4iy]

I must say whilst this theory holds immense support amongst the show watchers(mostly) and book readers I am more inclined to lean towards the R+L=D theory and the B+A=J theory. There are numerous pieces of evidence, and apart from this the relation fits almost to well into such a diverse unpredictable series. Such a popularised theory almost cheapens such a dynamic world in my opinion and is way too typical of an ending to such a clearly devoted mystery.The textual evidence does in my mind point towards this theory but also lends itself to R+L=J which is such a great thing about the series. Not all the evidence points to one theory. You can probably bet the show will head towards R+L= J though as little if any know who Ashara is. Therefore I understand R+L=D and B+A=J to be more likely.

The textual evidence and the author himself has Dany being born 9 months after Lyanna dies.

And RLJ is pretty much accepted amongst the book readers, not just the show watchers (really, the only show watchers who know the theory have picked it up from the books because they're isn't really enough evidence in the show to support it at this point).

Believe what you want, but it's not true.

[MtnLion]

Hence yes the popularity being one of the show watchers. The time frames are a bit muddled though Jon being conceived at the beginning of the rebellion seems feasible. When do you suggest Daenerys was born and where?

Hello, Tom, welcome to the forums. I doubt that you have read many of the reasons for our belief, based upon your comments, thus far. Might I suggest that you go to page one to read up on the support for the case?

[Kingmonkey]

Ned's anger at Ashara's name being mentioned may not imply that he had an affair with her that resulted in her getting pregnant. It may simply be because he had feelings for Ashara at one point or because he didn't want to tarnish her name anymore that it already had been. Another reason probably is that Ned wanted to end the discussion/gossip about Jon's mother in WF once and for all.

Compare

"Her name was Wylla," Ned replied with cool courtesy, "and I would sooner not speak of her."

"Wylla. Yes." The king grinned. "She must have been a rare wench if she could make Lord Eddard Stark forget his honor, even for an hour. You never told me what she looked like . . . "

Ned's mouth tightened in anger. "Nor will I. Leave it be, Robert, for the love you say you bear me. I dishonored myself and I dishonored Catelyn, in the sight of gods and men."

with

That was the only time in all their years that Ned had ever frightened her. "Never ask me about Jon," he said, cold as ice. "He is my blood, and that is all you need to know. And now I will learn where you heard that name, my lady." She had pledged to obey; she told him; and from that day on, the whispering had stopped, and Ashara Dayne's name was never heard in Winterfell again.

Ned has a cover story -- Wylla. He's not happy talking about her, and hates lying, but if necessary he will. When Cat asks him about Ashara, he tries to stop speculation about Jon, but he is ALSO clearly upset about Ashara's name being brought into it.

No that doesn't demand they had an affair, but it fits better with them having an affair that Ned simply feeling a little bad about a vague one-time acquaintance being subject to rumours.

[Suzanna Stormborn]

Rhaegar put the crown on Lyanna's lap.

Rhaegar put the crown on Lyanna's knees.

See the difference?

I was just wondering why it would be written 2 different ways like that when describing the tombs?

Any thoughts on whether we are getting any hints at Jon's lineage this season?

There's got to be hints soon. From the preview we obviously get that past scene of Cersei, presumably when she gets her prophecy read. Plus for those of who believe AJT, Tywin has mentioned 3 times that he questions Tyrion's parentage on the show including his dying words. I believe that was left in for a reason as well.

Han shot first!

Oh def he shot first. I've never understood it, where was Greedo even aiming, Han is 3 ft from you, how did you miss him? And why would a laser shot bounce off the wall? Also isn't 'parsec' a unit of space and not a unit of time?

[Kingmonkey]

I haven't seen many people bring this up, but the best evidence is this IMO

On the night that Ned danced with Ashara, Howland slept in his tent. So Ned wasn't getting laid that night unless he and Ashara went elsewhere to do the deed.

If that's the best evidence, it rather makes my point. It's not like Ned couldn't have been visiting her tent. Or that they might not have slept together the first night they met. Or indeed you could use it as evidence that Ned was indeed sleeping with Ashara and thus had a spare bed in his tent that he wasn't using.

[sj4iy]

There's got to be hints soon. From the preview we obviously get that past scene of Cersei, presumably when she gets her prophecy read. Plus for those of who believe AJT, Tywin has mentioned 3 times that he questions Tyrion's parentage on the show including his dying words. I believe that was left in for a reason as well.

It seems that they did film at a remote tower sometime this past season. But no one knows what it was for. We can hope, though.

[sandpiper]

Ned has a cover story -- Wylla. He's not happy talking about her, and hates lying, but if necessary he will.

The wording ned uses, "Nor will I. Leave it be, Robert, for the love you say you bear me.I dishonored myself and I dishonored Catelyn, in the sight of gods and men"

Oh but he really did. He took part in a war which killed half the kingdom to punish Rhaegar for what he had done, when all he did was elope with Lyanna. That might be kinda tough to live with. And the absolute last thing Robert wants to know is that he fought a war to win back a woman who had run away from him.

[Tom_Pigott]

I see how I might have sounded ignorant. Well B+A=J seems likely enough at least as Brandon and Ashara both were in Kings Landing at a similar time and it wouldn't have been beyond Brandon to 'fall in love' with Ashara. Have you ever considered that perhaps Lyanna threw herself from the tower after birthing a stillborn child, riddled with the guilt of setting half the realm to war? Of course this doesn't explain the promise but it does the blood. The alternative of course is that she was wounded by someone; I think it unlikely though that Rhaegar would have done this or a catspaw on his order. It also doesn't quite explain why Ned sets a disproportionate part of his thought to Daenerys; it is more than just his morals toying with him. And then there is the Ned/Ashara promise which makes sense in regards to Jon's parentage if he was fathered by Brandon.

[BearQueen87]

I see how I might have sounded ignorant. Well B+A=J seems likely enough at least as Brandon and Ashara both were in Kings Landing at a similar time and it wouldn't have been beyond Brandon to 'fall in love' with Ashara. Have you ever considered that perhaps Lyanna threw herself from the tower after birthing a stillborn child, riddled with the guilt of setting half the realm to war? Of course this doesn't explain the promise but it does the blood. The alternative of course is that she was wounded by someone; I think it unlikely though that Rhaegar would have done this or a catspaw on his order. It also doesn't quite explain why Ned sets a disproportionate part of his thought to Daenerys; it is more than just his morals toying with him. And then there is the Ned/Ashara promise which makes sense in regards to Jon's parentage if he was fathered by Brandon.

Ashara was on Dragnstone, not in KL when Brandon was. Ashara was tied to Elia who lived on DS with Rhaegar. The Rebellion took around a year. Thus, there is no way that Brandon and Ashara could have fathered Jon