R+L =J v.135

[Greymoon]

I see how I might have sounded ignorant. Well B+A=J seems likely enough at least as Brandon and Ashara both were in Kings Landing at a similar time and it wouldn't have been beyond Brandon to 'fall in love' with Ashara. Have you ever considered that perhaps Lyanna threw herself from the tower after birthing a stillborn child, riddled with the guilt of setting half the realm to war? Of course this doesn't explain the promise but it does the blood. The alternative of course is that she was wounded by someone; I think it unlikely though that Rhaegar would have done this or a catspaw on his order. It also doesn't quite explain why Ned sets a disproportionate part of his thought to Daenerys; it is more than just his morals toying with him. And then there is the Ned/Ashara promise which makes sense in regards to Jon's parentage if he was fathered by Brandon.

What Ned/Ashara promise?

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

I see how I might have sounded ignorant. Well B+A=J seems likely enough at least as Brandon and Ashara both were in Kings Landing at a similar time and it wouldn't have been beyond Brandon to 'fall in love' with Ashara. Have you ever considered that perhaps Lyanna threw herself from the tower after birthing a stillborn child, riddled with the guilt of setting half the realm to war? Of course this doesn't explain the promise but it does the blood. The alternative of course is that she was wounded by someone; I think it unlikely though that Rhaegar would have done this or a catspaw on his order. It also doesn't quite explain why Ned sets a disproportionate part of his thought to Daenerys; it is more than just his morals toying with him. And then there is the Ned/Ashara promise which makes sense in regards to Jon's parentage if he was fathered by Brandon.

Actually, we don't know exactly where Ashara was.. Elia seems to have been on Dragonstone though, so if Ashara was still in service of the court, like BearQueen said, she would have been on Dragonstone.

And while Brandon might have been in KL, he was in jail.... I doubt he was thinking about anything but his life at that time.

[Tom_Pigott]

Yes the theory does hinge on a number of variables but I doubt Ashara was still in service of Elia at the beginning of the rebellion. As for Brandon yes he was in jail for the most part before he was executed but he may have had a chance in those early months to see Ashara.

[Tom_Pigott]

I see your reasoning.

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

Yes the theory does hinge on a number of variables but I doubt Ashara was still in service of Elia at the beginning of the rebellion. As for Brandon yes he was in jail for the most part before he was executed but he may have had a chance in those early months to see Ashara.

In those "early months", though, he doesn't appear to have been anywhere near KL... At least, there's no textual evidence for it. ;)

Edit: Ah, we're speaking about the early months of the rebellion.. The rebellion is dated from the moment Jon Arryn raised his banners, which he did after Brandon had died..

[BearQueen87]

Yes the theory does hinge on a number of variables but I doubt Ashara was still in service of Elia at the beginning of the rebellion. As for Brandon yes he was in jail for the most part before he was executed but he may have had a chance in those early months to see Ashara.

The time between Brandon's execution and the actual start of the Rebellion is a few months in order for Ned to get back to WF and call his banners and Robert to get to SE's. Therefore, if Brandon fathered Jon he would have to be born in the late middle of Robert's Rebellion, before the Sack. Jon was not.

[markg171]

There's a new trailer for the show seeing as some of you were discussing what to expect this season

[Alia of the knife]

My take was Ashara was long gone and back in Starfall when Brandon went to KL.

[Ser Creighton]

My take was Ashara was long gone and back in Starfall when Brandon went to KL.

Well Martin did say she was not nailed down to Dorne. So that is probably where she was when things went crazy.

[BearQueen87]

Ashara's movements as understood by BQ:

--Was at HH. Got pregnant.

--Went back to DS with Elia

--Pregnancy discovered

--Sent packing in disgrace by Elia back to Starfall

--Stayed in Starfall but was clued into what happening at the TOJ

Open to possibility:

--Either made her way to KL or SE and told Ned about Lyanna at the TOJ (If it was, in fact, her that told) (I go back and forth on that one)

[Alia of the knife]

There's a new trailer for the show seeing as some of you were discussing what to expect this season

Very cool, thanks.

Well Martin did say she was not nailed down to Dorne. So that is probably where she was when things went crazy.

Agreed.

Ashara's movements as understood by BQ:

--Was at HH. Got pregnant.

--Went back to DS with Elia

--Pregnancy discovered

--Sent packing in disgrace by Elia back to Starfall

--Stayed in Starfall but was clued into what happening at the TOJ

Open to possibility:

--Either made her way to KL or SE and told Ned about Lyanna at the TOJ (If it was, in fact, her that told) (I go back and forth on that one)

Thats what I think, and thanks for the bullet points. :D

[markg171]

Very cool, thanks.

Definitely a lot of interesting things in there

- The High Sparrow will be a major force

- Something happens to Selyse

- Stannis will ride for Winterfell

- Brienne and Pod head north

- Meereen will rebel against Dany

- Drogon is MASSIVE

[Ser Creighton]

Definitely a lot of interesting things in there

- The High Sparrow will be a major force

- Something happens to Selyse

- Stannis will ride for Winterfell

- Brienne and Pod head north

- Meereen will rebel against Dany

- Drogon is MASSIVE

Slavers are rebelling aginsst Dany, you can see Freemen fighting slavers in two different clips.

Oh and Sansa is in exactly where Ran said she would be. Looks like she is filling in for Babs and the Mandy's.

There is a shot where Brie looks like she is at the Wall, not sure but if I am not mistaken I have a KG in the North and South now. Well I said one of them would be heading to Jon way back when, though I thought for sure it would be Jaime. Then again a Blue Sapphire in the north works just as well for the symbolism, if not a bit concerning. Night's watch and the Evanstar. Should of thought of that. All the sunny stuff heading south all the night stuff heading north. Hmmmmmmmmmmm, I should right a theory about something like that. Or maybe I did and D&D are clearly ripping me off. Oh and the inverse is totally happening, ahahahahahahaha, my evil genius knows no bounds.

I need a cat to stroke while act all evil. Alia? I need a cat, preferably one that will not cut off the circulation to my legs if he sits son my lap. Evanstar in the north, Vale of the moon in the north, Blue eyed king in the north. Dorne the sun in the south, Jaime the golden lion in the south (Leo is the sun), though I really could use FAegon in the south, stupid casting.

[IceFire125]

Sansa in the crypts of Winterfell? :o

[Ser Creighton]

Sansa in the crypts of Winterfell? :o

Yup, wonder what she finds? Some book fans are really angry about this and the absence of irrelivant characters. I need to go read more of their posts, they are funny, it's a protest. Either they want Lemon cake freed or Arianna's boobs reinstated, not a joke. Oh and they want FAgon and Euron who are clearly the most important characters ever. Oh and D&D suck and don't know what they are doing even though Martin said they know what they are doing. So angry, can't just enjoy the show for the show and the books for the books. Lots of Theory panic too, I guess talking shit for years is starting set home on some people with, oh fuck what if I am wrong. Strangly feeling very secure these days myself.

Since it's the show and it would not make sense to burn their books over the show, do you think they will burn their tv's or maybe buy the DVD's and then burn them as a symbolic statement? They could just skip the show but that probably won't happen.

Were you here for the mild panic when Kit cut his hair? That was funny too, "Jon's dead, he's dead, why god, whyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy?" "Fuck you D&D, fuck you!" Not a single episode of this season has aired and it's the worst thing to ever happen, ever because of 60 second trailer with next to no context.

Besides it's not like they can't make Tryst Aegon, Arbor gold is a tough sell to a national audience. Put him with his Uncle and you can make a stronger case for his authenticity. He eventually ends up in Dorne anyway, and who is to say Jaime does not hear about Aegon in winds and go investigate, he did have that dream about Rhaegar in the books and the topic clearly crosses his mind. The producers did not want anyone mentioning Aegon at Comic Con, it was taboo. So they skip the pole boat ride, JonCon and Arbor Gold. May even send the Sand Snakes to Dany instead of Quin. 3 Dornish sent from the ruling house is 3 Dornish from the ruling house. Maybe to try and ge help for Aegon.

[corbon]

Compare

with

Ned has a cover story -- Wylla. He's not happy talking about her, and hates lying, but if necessary he will. When Cat asks him about Ashara, he tries to stop speculation about Jon, but he is ALSO clearly upset about Ashara's name being brought into it.

No that doesn't demand they had an affair, but it fits better with them having an affair that Ned simply feeling a little bad about a vague one-time acquaintance being subject to rumours.

I disagree.

He is icily angry about discussion of Jon's origins, not Ashara.

He doesn't even mention Ashara himself, or ask any details about the discussion of her - she is only mentioned as possibly Jon's mother by Catelyn.

He has no interest in Ashara's name, what he wants Catelyn to divulge is the source of the rumour.

His entire and only goal indicated in that text is to stop anyone discussing Jon's origins. He displays no interest whatsoever in Ashara in that text.

What's the argument for Brandon? Ultimately it mostly seems to rely on Brandon not being able to keep his pants on around any attractive woman. That's not really much to go on. Pretty much the only good reason for thinking Brandon rather than Ned is that we're given more evidence for Ned so it's gotta be a red herring. Isn't that an argument most people really hate when it's used as a counter to R+L=J?

Thats a painfully bad mischaracterisation of the data.

Argument for Brandon consists roughly equally of at least 4 parts.

1. Barristan's thoughts that young girls always choose fire men over mud men - and Barristan's known experience of young girls being Dany and... Ashara, since he was around at Harrenhal and no doubt paying close attention to his personal crush-from-afar.

2. Ned's general characterisation and complete lack of thought of or interest in Ashara

3. Brandon's general characterisation and history

4. Barristan's displayed respect for Ned.

and in a way...

5. Complete lack of anything solid pointing to Ned once the data that appears to point to N+A is examined closely

The KotLT story provides minor, but not unimportant details.

[Ygrain]

Thats a painfully bad mischaracterisation of the data.

Argument for Brandon consists roughly equally of at least 4 parts.

1. Barristan's thoughts that young girls always choose fire men over mud men - and Barristan's known experience of young girls being Dany and... Ashara, since he was around at Harrenhal and no doubt paying close attention to his personal crush-from-afar.

2. Ned's general characterisation and complete lack of thought of or interest in Ashara

3. Brandon's general characterisation and history

4. Barristan's displayed respect for Ned.

and in a way...

5. Complete lack of anything solid pointing to Ned once the data that appears to point to N+A is examined closely

The KotLT story provides minor, but not unimportant details.

Amen.

[Alia of the knife]

Yup, wonder what she finds? Some book fans are really angry about this and the absence of irrelivant characters. I need to go read more of their posts, they are funny, it's a protest. Either they want Lemon cake freed or Arianna's boobs reinstated, not a joke. Oh and they want FAgon and Euron who are clearly the most important characters ever. Oh and D&D suck and don't know what they are doing even though Martin said they know what they are doing. So angry, can't just enjoy the show for the show and the books for the books. Lots of Theory panic too, I guess talking shit for years is starting set home on some people with, oh fuck what if I am wrong. Strangly feeling very secure these days myself.

Since it's the show and it would not make sense to burn their books over the show, do you think they will burn their tv's or maybe buy the DVD's and then burn them as a symbolic statement? They could just skip the show but that probably won't happen.

Were you here for the mild panic when Kit cut his hair? That was funny too, "Jon's dead, he's dead, why god, whyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy?" "Fuck you D&D, fuck you!" Not a single episode of this season has aired and it's the worst thing to ever happen, ever because of 60 second trailer with next to no context.

Besides it's not like they can't make Tryst Aegon, Arbor gold is a tough sell to a national audience. Put him with his Uncle and you can make a stronger case for his authenticity. He eventually ends up in Dorne anyway, and who is to say Jaime does not hear about Aegon in winds and go investigate, he did have that dream about Rhaegar in the books and the topic clearly crosses his mind. The producers did not want anyone mentioning Aegon at Comic Con, it was taboo. So they skip the pole boat ride, JonCon and Arbor Gold. May even send the Sand Snakes to Dany instead of Quin. 3 Dornish sent from the ruling house is 3 Dornish from the ruling house. Maybe to try and ge help for Aegon.

Should Sansa be there for Petes sake? Sansa isn't my favorite, but thats a little too close to Ramsey.

I knew that Ariannes boobs not putting in an appearance was going to cause a shit storm.

Did we see a fake Arya?, I guess she and Ramsey will be carrying the torch for the Bonnie and Clyde of the North.

[teej6]

I disagree.

He is icily angry about discussion of Jon's origins, not Ashara.

He doesn't even mention Ashara himself, or ask any details about the discussion of her - she is only mentioned as possibly Jon's mother by Catelyn.

He has no interest in Ashara's name, what he wants Catelyn to divulge is the source of the rumour.

His entire and only goal indicated in that text is to stop anyone discussing Jon's origins. He displays no interest whatsoever in Ashara in that text.

Thats a painfully bad mischaracterisation of the data.

Argument for Brandon consists roughly equally of at least 4 parts.

1. Barristan's thoughts that young girls always choose fire men over mud men - and Barristan's known experience of young girls being Dany and... Ashara, since he was around at Harrenhal and no doubt paying close attention to his personal crush-from-afar.

2. Ned's general characterisation and complete lack of thought of or interest in Ashara

3. Brandon's general characterisation and history

4. Barristan's displayed respect for Ned.

and in a way...

5. Complete lack of anything solid pointing to Ned once the data that appears to point to N+A is examined closely

The KotLT story provides minor, but not unimportant details.

Exactly!

[teej6]

Yup, wonder what she finds? Some book fans are really angry about this and the absence of irrelivant characters. I need to go read more of their posts, they are funny, it's a protest. Either they want Lemon cake freed or Arianna's boobs reinstated, not a joke. Oh and they want FAgon and Euron who are clearly the most important characters ever. Oh and D&D suck and don't know what they are doing even though Martin said they know what they are doing. So angry, can't just enjoy the show for the show and the books for the books. Lots of Theory panic too, I guess talking shit for years is starting set home on some people with, oh fuck what if I am wrong. Strangly feeling very secure these days myself.

Since it's the show and it would not make sense to burn their books over the show, do you think they will burn their tv's or maybe buy the DVD's and then burn them as a symbolic statement? They could just skip the show but that probably won't happen.

Were you here for the mild panic when Kit cut his hair? That was funny too, "Jon's dead, he's dead, why god, whyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy?" "Fuck you D&D, fuck you!" Not a single episode of this season has aired and it's the worst thing to ever happen, ever because of 60 second trailer with next to no context.

Besides it's not like they can't make Tryst Aegon, Arbor gold is a tough sell to a national audience. Put him with his Uncle and you can make a stronger case for his authenticity. He eventually ends up in Dorne anyway, and who is to say Jaime does not hear about Aegon in winds and go investigate, he did have that dream about Rhaegar in the books and the topic clearly crosses his mind. The producers did not want anyone mentioning Aegon at Comic Con, it was taboo. So they skip the pole boat ride, JonCon and Arbor Gold. May even send the Sand Snakes to Dany instead of Quin. 3 Dornish sent from the ruling house is 3 Dornish from the ruling house. Maybe to try and ge help for Aegon.

Okay you are being a bit unfair. Not all book fans complaints over D&D's adaptation is completely baseless. I agree that some nitpick over nonsensical issues but there are the others who have valid concerns. I'm not a Stannis fan but even I admit that D&D butchered Stannis' character on the show. And up until last season, the Wall storyline was handled rather poorly IMO.

I can understand and appreciate that D&D cannot have all the secondary characters from the books on the show but they aren't giving the North its proper dues. I do feel that most readers (at least most posters on this forum) agree that Manderly and his frey pies were one of the best fist pumping scenes in terms of Northmen's revenge. And if they mean to cut that and have Sansa do something instead, I feel, it will be totally out of character for Sansa, and the loss of one of the best secondary characters in the books.

As for GRRM saying that D&D knows what they are doing, do you honestly think he's going to say any different? He sold them the rights and the show has become a monstrous hit, of course he's going to defend them whether he likes their changes or not. After the first season, which I still think is the best, he was all about the butterfly effect for killing a very minor character. I feel now, even if he had reservations about the show, he won't make such a fuss about it.

I actually do like most of the show but when they have time for a Greyworm/Missandei love story and then state that they are cutting this character/storyline for a lack of time, that's what annoys me. Also, I am apprehensive about S5 becoz until now D&D did have the books to develop the characters and now they have to do it on their own. And I'm not too confident in their skills.