The Astronomy Behind the Legends of Planetos

[King of Vaes Tolorro]

The rider who followed the comet hit the home run, representing the successful forging of Lightbringer. Jogho returns with three fairly creepy strangers in tow, two of which turn out to have intentions of stealing Dany's dragons (Pyat Pree and Xaro Xoan Daxos) and the third, Quaithe, may be bad news as well (at least I certainly think so). I believe this idea of Lightbringer leading to three death-associated things is indicative of the exploded moon leading to three Planetos impacts, as well as the infamous "three heads has the dragon." We will see this pattern crop up several times. The fact that she is twice noted as standing above these three represents the fact that the elf moon, grandmother of dragons, was up in the sky, and the three chunks fell down to the planet. This also matches with the three directions the riders went: southeast, south, and southwest. South is an allusion to falling.

Pyat Pree sought to help Dany and let her dragons fluorish. He sent her to the Warlocks so she could ask for aid. When she burned them, he turned on her.

[Waters Gate]

The planet's axis would be my first guess. Moon, sun, and planets rise and set further north in summer and further south in winter.

The issue is that it's being seen up north but not south. Normaly it should simply occur more along the equator. Youre explenation is a good one, but then the extend the moon will rise further north depends on just how much axial tilt there is, suggesting more pronounced natural seasons and an artic circle that is up more north. There are 4 places its spotted, kingslanding, riverrun, The eyrie and north of the wall. This moon should be witnessed mroe from southern locations rather than up north. Granted we don't have that many p.o.v's in the southern parts of the map.

[LmL]

Pyat Pree sought to help Dany and let her dragons fluorish. He sent her to the Warlocks so she could ask for aid. When she burned them, he turned on her.

You might need to reread that section. They were biting her all over her body, including her throat, and even licking trying to eat her eye - sorry, but that just doesn't wash as "trying to help."

Everything about the Warlocks is twisted and wrong.

[Avlonnic]

Oh bingo! You found one! I was hoping for this - other little dramas that fit the pattern that I had missed. Absolutel bingotastic! You just earned yourself a mighty hat tip when I use that example. Huzzah!

I'll have to re-read that chapter and examine the details to see what it might say about the 3 forgings, which is one of the foggier parts of the interpretation I / we are trying to make.

Notable that it's Brienne in this scene....

You made my day! It did catch my attention with the forgings. Brienne is there with the water and with a lion...and with someone she will begin to care about. So, it is a start. Not as elegant as the Alleras/apple but I am grinning. Thanks!

[White Ravens]

Are you sure you're not confusing local hours and solar hours ? Midnight is here a solar hour, meant to be the middle of the night. If the sun sets after 10 pm, then it must rises before 2 am, and the night lasts less than four hours, that seems extreme, even for a solstice summer night.

But it rises another question. At the end of Dance, we're at the winter solstice, so the nights are longest. How long do you think the night lasts in Westeros, according to what can be hinted in the story ?

I double checked and I do admit that it is still light out after ten, but the sun sets here at around 9:15 at summer solstice. Regardless, I was making the point that the half moon of the third quarter rises after the stars come out. It is not at all impossible as stated up thread.

And, since GRRM has stated that Planetos orbits its sun every year we are back to the seasons having little to do with science and much to do with magic. If the planet has a tilt to its axis there will still be a summer and winter solstice with the path of the sun passing higher and lower in the sky. But the Maesters probably don't use the term summer and winter when they refer to the solstices since the summers and winters ignore the annual fluctuations of the sun's path through the sky and last for years rather than months. For all I know the moon behaves in magical ways that contradict science as well, but for now my belief is that GRRM mostly refers to the moon in the night sky because so do most authors. He is mentioning the moon to establish time of day and to enhance his descriptions of darkness and night rather than trying to make ASOIAF an ephemeris or a farmers almanac. At the end of Dance the white ravens herald the arrival of winter, but since the seasons last for years it is hard to make any determination about the length of days and nights. I will go with the assumption that as Planetos makes its annual trek around its sun the length of the days and nights will follow an annual fluctuation similar to ours, but the season just simply don't care about that and do their own magical thing.

[LmL]

I double checked and I do admit that it is still light out after ten, but the sun sets here at around 9:15 at summer solstice. Regardless, I was making the point that the half moon of the third quarter rises after the stars come out. It is not at all impossible as stated up thread.

And, since GRRM has stated that Planetos orbits its sun every year we are back to the seasons having little to do with science and much to do with magic. If the planet has a tilt to its axis there will still be a summer and winter solstice with the path of the sun passing higher and lower in the sky. But the Maesters probably don't use the term summer and winter when they refer to the solstices since the summers and winters ignore the annual fluctuations of the sun's path through the sky and last for years rather than months. For all I know the moon behaves in magical ways that contradict science as well, but for now my belief is that GRRM mostly refers to the moon in the night sky because so do most authors. He is mentioning the moon to establish time of day and to enhance his descriptions of darkness and night rather than trying to make ASOIAF an ephemeris or a farmers almanac. At the end of Dance the white ravens herald the arrival of winter, but since the seasons last for years it is hard to make any determination about the length of days and nights. I will go with the assumption that as Planetos makes its annual trek around its sun the length of the days and nights will follow an annual fluctuation similar to ours, but the season just simply don't care about that and do their own magical thing.

If I had seen any hypothetical moon scenario that seems plausible for George to be thinking of, I would be into it. The observations about the moon rising after sunset are valid and detailed, I just tend to agree with you, White Corvus, it's just poetic license. Just because he imagined two moons and a comet splitting and destroying one moon doesn't mean he's taken the astronomy in this thing to a modern day, scientifically accurate level. It's somewhere in between, and it's certainly very subjective. I feel like this inquiry into the moon that everyone has done on the last few pages was very exhaustive and thorough, and done by folks with pretty good layman astronomical knowledge. I think if there was a scenario that explained the weird moonrise, we would have sniffed it out. But we keep coming back to the problem of the moon having consistent phases. It's just not working. But we tried - really, really,hard. I feel satisfied it's just poetic liscense, I don't see any other answer. It's likely he chooses the phase of the moon for the symbolic connotations that fit a given scene more than anything else.

[Mychel_Redfort]

I double checked and I do admit that it is still light out after ten, but the sun sets here at around 9:15 at summer solstice.

That makes the night last 5,5 hours, that's already more reasonable. And you spoke of Canada, at which latitude are you?

Regardless, I was making the point that the half moon of the third quarter rises after the stars come out. It is not at all impossible as stated up thread.

I said a half moon should rise in the middle of the night, not at the beginning. Look how the text flows : Will, Waymar and Gared ride to the wildling camp. The sky darkens, the stars come out, the half moon rises. Does it look like three hours passed ? And that would be in the most favorable case of the summer solstice.

I will go with the assumption that as Planetos makes its annual trek around its sun the length of the days and nights will follow an annual fluctuation similar to ours, but the season just simply don't care about that and do their own magical thing.

I'm not sure of the source, but I'm under the impression that the maesters do indeed measure the length of day. How else could they determine when the seasons begin?

[Mychel_Redfort]

I feel satisfied it's just poetic liscense, I don't see any other answer. It's likely he chooses the phase of the moon for the symbolic connotations that fit a given scene more than anything else.

I would rather go with a magical reason like for the seasons, but I agree there doesn't seem to be a rational answer. So, to get back on topic : astronomy behind the legends on Earth is a subject that fascinates me since I learned of an example that really blowed my mind. I'll speak of it later, but do others here have good examples to share?

[Waters Gate]

I would rather go with a magical reason like for the seasons, but I agree there doesn't seem to be a rational answer. So, to get back on topic : astronomy behind the legends on Earth is a subject that fascinates me since I learned of an example that really blowed my mind. I'll speak of it later, but do others here have good examples to share?

You made me very curious, i want to read it when you post it. Youre absolutly welcome to notify me of it.

I agree of the fact that one should beware to go not to scientific, ive mentioned that myself when posting theory's when stuff got "too scientific". nevertheless just like Mychel i have a strong conviction that "celestial matters" matter, in part because GRRM does put quite some attendtion to it.

[Han Snow]

Why not ask George on his notablog if there is significance for Moon rising after sunset and all that jazz you're discussing here. Maybe he answers?!

[White Ravens]

That makes the night last 5,5 hours, that's already more reasonable. And you spoke of Canada, at which latitude are you?

I said a half moon should rise in the middle of the night, not at the beginning. Look how the text flows : Will, Waymar and Gared ride to the wildling camp. The sky darkens, the stars come out, the half moon rises. Does it look like three hours passed ? And that would be in the most favorable case of the summer solstice.

I'm not sure of the source, but I'm under the impression that the maesters do indeed measure the length of day. How else could they determine when the seasons begin?

Like most Canadians, I live below the 49th Parallel.

48° 26' 0" N

Somewhere it is stated that it is the Maesters that keep track of the seasons and that they send the white ravens throughout Westeros to herald when they change. Who knows how they do it because... magic.

[Avalatis]

I have to say it was an interesting post, but a bit far fetched in some areas. The people of planetos aren't going to know what a comet is made out of. So your whole explanation for the "water" part of the legend doesn't make sense as the people are the ones who created the legend wouldn't have had the knowledge to even come up with that aspect of story.

[LmL]

I have to say it was an interesting post, but a bit far fetched in some areas. The people of planetos aren't going to know what a comet is made out of. So your whole explanation for the "water" part of the legend doesn't make sense as the people are the ones who created the legend wouldn't have had the knowledge to even come up with that aspect of story.

Admittedly, the exact nature of the first forging is one of the less certain aspects of the theory. But, I have provided a reason the people on the ground would have viewed it this way: the tails. The tails are what makes the comet look like a sword - and if the first tail was blue and white, that alone may have reminded them of water.

There's a good alternate idea proposed in the comments having to do with the constellation that the comet appears out of. It's very common practice in the real world for man to name a comet or meteor shower after whatever constellation is in that part of the sky that the meteors seem to be coming from. Thus, it may have first appeared in the sky overtop a water-related constellation, and then overtop a lion-related constellation as it swung around the sun and headed back towards the planet and moon.

Lastly I will say, "don't underestimate ancient man." We are constantly discovering evidence that ancient man was more knowledgeable about the world that we used to think. They were VERY good at astronomy and navigation. It's not impossible that they have an idea that cold iron or rock is at the center of a comet, especially if they have ever dug up a meteorite.

But really, the two simplest options to explain the idea of the three forgings are the "constellation of origin" idea and the "naming the forgings after the tail's appearance" idea. I'm certainly open-minded towards ideas I haven't thought of to explain the three attempts to temper Lightbringer, so I'm all ears if you have a new idea in this regard.

Thanks for taking the time to check out the theory, even if you don't agree with some or all of it. :)

[Mychel_Redfort]

Like most Canadians, I live below the 49th Parallel.

48° 26' 0" N

Far enough from the arctic circle then. I'm a little souther than you in the South of France.

Somewhere it is stated that it is the Maesters that keep track of the seasons and that they send the white ravens throughout Westeros to herald when they change. Who knows how they do it because... magic.

From Game 21 :

The Lord Commander did not seem amused. "You are not fool enough to belive that, my lord. Already the days grow shorter. There can be no mistake, Aemon has had letters from the Citadel, findings in accord with his own. The end of summer stares us in the face."

This quote shows the days are shortening during summer, like on Earth and despite the irregular seasons. Brienne also notices the days are growing shorter in Feast 20, some time before the winter solstice. And Cressen tells us in Clash's Prologue :

"They are larger than other ravens, and more clever, bred to carry only the most important messages. This one came to tell us that the Conclave has met, considered the reports and measurements made by masters all over the realm, and declared this great summer done at last. Ten years, two turns, and sixteen days it lasted, the longest summer in living memory."

So clearly the Conclave use the measurements made by maesters all over Westeros to determine when the summer ends, and what else could the maesters measure but the lengths of day, or where on the horizon the sun rises or sets, or how high it is at noon.

So yes, the reason for the irregular seasons is clearly magical, but the seasons still obey to some astronomical facts.

[LmL]

^^^ those are good quote pulls, Mychel Redfort. I was thinking of those but forget where they were. Nice job.

[Frey family reunion]

Far enough from the arctic circle then. I'm a little souther than you in the South of France.

From Game 21 :

This quote shows the days are shortening during summer, like on Earth and despite the irregular seasons. Brienne also notices the days are growing shorter in Feast 20, some time before the winter solstice. And Cressen tells us in Clash's Prologue :

So clearly the Conclave use the measurements made by maesters all over Westeros to determine when the summer ends, and what else could the maesters measure but the lengths of day, or where on the horizon the sun rises or sets, or how high it is at noon.

So yes, the reason for the irregular seasons is clearly magical, but the seasons still obey to some astronomical facts.

I think we are given an inkling as to what measurements the Maesters are making based on what we can see in Maester Luwin's chambers:

Maester Luwin's turret was so cluttered that it seemed to Bran a wonder that he ever found anything. Tottering piles of books covered tables and chairs, rows of stoppered jars lined the shelves, candle stubs and puddles of dried wax dotted the furniture, the bronze Myrish lens tube sat on a tripod by the terrace door, star charts hung from the walls, shadow maps lay scattered among the rushes, papers, quills, and pots of inks were everywhere, and all of it was spotted with droppings from the ravens in the rafters.

So perhaps star positions and whatever shadow maps may be? Perhaps measurements of shadows cast to show a change in position of the sun?

[Waters Gate]

I think we are given an inkling as to what measurements the Maesters are making based on what we can see in Maester Luwin's chambers:

So perhaps star positions and whatever shadow maps may be? Perhaps measurements of shadows cast to show a change in position of the sun?

Thats well done, good find, indeed it does make one think why Grrm goes to discribe those things and mention something like a "shadow maps" which i guess are more his own invention. Shadow maps are about eclipses?

[LmL]

Yep, nice catch Frey Family Reunion.

[Voice]

Yes, sounds good to me FFR.

The length of days change, solstices come and go, and this the Maesters know. But, the comings and goings of seasons are not dependent on these changes, as they are on Earth.

The Maesters make their measurements, because that's what maesters do, but rather than foretell the coming season, they can only bear witness once it is upon them.

They then scratch out their observations and raven them to the Citadel, white wings fly from Oldtown, and the grey mice inform their lords.

I also stumbled upon this today, the banner of House Karstark. While it isn't an explicit reference, maybe it is?...I think it may also point to my idea of an eclipse being the cause of the sun hiding its face, rather than cloud cover, in the long night...

[Mychel_Redfort]

Actually, the shadow map could be the measures of the shadow cast by a gnomon. If every day at noon, when the sun is on the meridian, you measure the shadow cast by the gnomon, the shadow is shortest the day of the summer solstice, so this could be used to determine the beginning of summer. And when the shadow is longest, it's the beginning of winter.