One God, Two Gods, Red God Blue God: Melisandre and the Night's Queen

[Durran Durrandon]

What's interesting to me about that passage is this is the first we've heard anyone from the Red Faith talk about an eschatological re-making and re-ordering of the world. Melisandre notably doesn't talk about this. She doesn't say that stopping the Great Other (in this case she interprets the White Walkers to be his children) will bring about a glorious new Planetos.

True, has anyone scoured for eschatological end-games regarding TPtwP?

[LmL]

What's interesting to me about that passage is this is the first we've heard anyone from the Red Faith talk about an eschatological re-making and re-ordering of the world. Melisandre notably doesn't talk about this. She doesn't say that stopping the Great Other (in this case she interprets the White Walkers to be his children) will bring about a glorious new Planetos.

Bennero is quite the optimist, it seems

I agree with Durran that a victory for either side would be a nightmare. That’s the thing about monotheism, they don’t understand true duality.

[Associate Maester]

Bennero is quite the optimist, it seems

I agree with Durran that a victory for either side would be a nightmare. That’s the thing about monotheism, they don’t understand true duality.

It isn't that monotheism doesn't understand dualism it is just a different set of religious beliefs (and even monotheistic faiths retain certain dualistic beliefs). R'hllorianism is not a monotheistic faith. It is monolatrial. They worship R'hllor while believing that the Great Other is his opposite. Moqorro also notes that the Drowned God and all other gods are slaves ("thralls") to the Great Other. It isn't a case of R'hllor being the only god. He's the only good god.

Duality lies right at the fiery heart of R'hllorianism. They have R'hllor and the Great Othe locked in eternal combat. Melisandre talks such duality, "The truth is all around you, plain to behold. The night is dark and full of terrors, the day bright and beautiful and full of hope. One is black, the other white. There is ice and there is fire. Hate and love. Bitter and sweet. Male and female. Pain and pleasure. Winter and summer. Evil and good...death and life. Everywhere, opposites. Everywhere the war."

[LmL]

It isn't that monotheism doesn't understand dualism it is just a different set of religious beliefs (and even monotheistic faiths retain certain dualistic beliefs). R'hllorianism is not a monotheistic faith. It is monolatrial. They worship R'hllor while believing that the Great Other is his opposite. Moqorro also notes that the Drowned God and all other gods are slaves ("thralls") to the Great Other. It isn't a case of R'hllor being the only god. He's the only good god.

Duality lies right at the fiery heart of R'hllorianism. They have R'hllor and the Great Othe locked in eternal combat. Melisandre talks such duality, "The truth is all around you, plain to behold. The night is dark and full of terrors, the day bright and beautiful and full of hope. One is black, the other white. There is ice and there is fire. Hate and love. Bitter and sweet. Male and female. Pain and pleasure. Winter and summer. Evil and good...death and life. Everywhere, opposites. Everywhere the war."

I agree with everything you said, I guess I was alluding to a more subtle concept without doing it justice. Most monotheistic religions seem to have a dualistic element - Christianity has the devil and hell - but in monotheism (and maybe your terminology is more correct), the existence of the “other” is a bad thing, and the salvation of the world comes from the inevitable victory of God (who is more powerful) over the devil (who is weaker and destined to lose). True dualism, as you said, is all about the harmonious balancing of opposite forces, both of which are necessary and neither of which is “evil” in the way of the Christian devil. Melissandre seems to embrace dualism, but she wants to stamp out the Great Other and create a nevending summer, as does Bennero, and that is NOT the answer we are looking for. We are looking for a re-balancing of the forces... I’m sure we agree on that.

[Avlonnic]

I don't see much of any light at all coming from Asshai by the Shadow or any of the spellcasters who draw their magical art from there. It's all shadow. Sure, light has a shadow aspect, but it shouldn't be overwhelmingly stronger than the light aspect. It's Asshai by the Shadow, and the sun never really shines fully there. It's all darkness. That's the definition of corrupted fire magic.

Just a thought: when Bran approaches the heart of winter during his coma vision, he looks north, north, north to a "to the curtain of light at the end of the world." GOT p. 163 So perhaps the curtain of light is the balance to the darkness of the Shadow.

[LmL]

Just a thought: when Bran approaches the heart of winter during his coma vision, he looks north, north, north to a "to the curtain of light at the end of the world." GOT p. 163 So perhaps the curtain of light is the balance to the darkness of the Shadow.

Yes, I’ve had this thought exactly. I think it’s building on a duality / role reversal that he has been setting up the entire series - ice that shines, and fire that is dark. Dark fire, hmm, what would you call that? Is there like, a real commonly used Westerosi term for dark fire? Black fire, maybe? ;)

[LmL]

BOOM. Part three is out, and it’s positively GeoDawnian.

[Associate Maester]

I agree with everything you said, I guess I was alluding to a more subtle concept without doing it justice. Most monotheistic religions seem to have a dualistic element - Christianity has the devil and hell - but in monotheism (and maybe your terminology is more correct), the existence of the “other” is a bad thing, and the salvation of the world comes from the inevitable victory of God (who is more powerful) over the devil (who is weaker and destined to lose). True dualism, as you said, is all about the harmonious balancing of opposite forces, both of which are necessary and neither of which is “evil” in the way of the Christian devil. Melissandre seems to embrace dualism, but she wants to stamp out the Great Other and create a nevending summer, as does Bennero, and that is NOT the answer we are looking for. We are looking for a re-balancing of the forces... I’m sure we agree on that.

It really depends on which group in a particular religion we're talking about. Not all Christian denominations/sects even believe in a devil and/or have very different theology on many tenets of faith. There are different types of dualism. The dualism we see in R'hllorianism is ditheism (equal and opposing forces/gods). What you're referring to is ontological dualism like we see in Daoism and exemplified in the Reed's Oath. It is about the interrelation and interconnection of opposing forces to achieve balance.

Of course Melisandre embraces that dualism because she is a devout member of the Red Faith. What I do find interesting is she doesn't mention the creation of a never-ending summer while Benerro does. So we don't know whether she believes or is trying to usher in a messianic golden age. It is a central tenet of Benerro's preaching and thus presumably the Red Faith in Volantis.

[LmL]

It really depends on which group in a particular religion we're talking about. Not all Christian denominations/sects even believe in a devil and/or have very different theology on many tenets of faith. There are different types of dualism. The dualism we see in R'hllorianism is ditheism (equal and opposing forces/gods). What you're referring to is ontological dualism like we see in Daoism and exemplified in the Reed's Oath. It is about the interrelation and interconnection of opposing forces to achieve balance.

Of course Melisandre embraces that dualism because she is a devout member of the Red Faith. What I do find interesting is she doesn't mention the creation of a never-ending summer while Benerro does. So we don't know whether she believes or is trying to usher in a messianic golden age. It is a central tenet of Benerro's preaching and thus presumably the Red Faith in Volantis.

Hey thanks Associate Maester, I appreciate the clarification and more precise terminology.

That's an interesting catch that Bennero wants a never ending summer and a Mel hasn't mentioned it. She's more concerned with having a champion to stand up to the Great Other. A more useful notion, to be sure.

I have a feeling George is doing something with her arc here - I think he likes Melissandre and plans to have her gradually learn to see the truth better, or perhaps learn to admit her own weakness.. Some kind of personal growth. She starts off seemingly pretty evil and misinformed, so naturally George has to neutralize those qualities if he wants to indicate personal growth.

If she, say, saw the need to nobly sacrifice herself to resurrect Jon or accomplish some other necessary thig to fight the Others, that would change opinion of her quote a bit, wouldn't it? I don't think she will be the sacrifice to pay for Jon's resurrection (I have a different guess there), but she's obviously got some crucial choices and actions coming up.

[Barri_The_Bold]

Hey thanks Associate Maester, I appreciate the clarification and more precise terminology.

That's an interesting catch that Bennero wants a never ending summer and a Mel hasn't mentioned it. She's more concerned with having a champion to stand up to the Great Other. A more useful notion, to be sure.

I have a feeling George is doing something with her arc here - I think he likes Melissandre and plans to have her gradually learn to see the truth better, or perhaps learn to admit her own weakness.. Some kind of personal growth. She starts off seemingly pretty evil and misinformed, so naturally George has to neutralize those qualities if he wants to indicate personal growth.

If she, say, saw the need to nobly sacrifice herself to resurrect Jon or accomplish some other necessary thig to fight the Others, that would change opinion of her quote a bit, wouldn't it? I don't think she will be the sacrifice to pay for Jon's resurrection (I have a different guess there), but she's obviously got some crucial choices and actions coming up.

I think she is already learning and will eventually admit her weakness that she isn't as good in "reading the fire" as she thinks she is. I mean she predicted that Arya was coming to the Wall on the horse she saw in the flames but it was only Alys Karstark. So I believe she will eventually come to the point where she draws the conclusion that Jon is Azor Ahai since she always sees snow when asking for a glimpse of Azor Ahai. She will continue to play a vital role to the destiny of Westeros and I don't think she'll sacrifice herself soon. Maybe in the endgame but not to resurrect Jon. She'll find someone else for that.

[Associate Maester]

Hey thanks Associate Maester, I appreciate the clarification and more precise terminology.

That's an interesting catch that Bennero wants a never ending summer and a Mel hasn't mentioned it. She's more concerned with having a champion to stand up to the Great Other. A more useful notion, to be sure.

I have a feeling George is doing something with her arc here - I think he likes Melissandre and plans to have her gradually learn to see the truth better, or perhaps learn to admit her own weakness.. Some kind of personal growth. She starts off seemingly pretty evil and misinformed, so naturally George has to neutralize those qualities if he wants to indicate personal growth.

If she, say, saw the need to nobly sacrifice herself to resurrect Jon or accomplish some other necessary thig to fight the Others, that would change opinion of her quote a bit, wouldn't it? I don't think she will be the sacrifice to pay for Jon's resurrection (I have a different guess there), but she's obviously got some crucial choices and actions coming up.

Well he says that her and Varys are the two most misunderstood characters. I don't know what role she'll play in TWOW. I assume she'll at least have a hand in resurrecting Jon. I think Melisandre will end up sacrificing herself, but not to save Jon (if Thoros raising Beric six times is any indication). In the Last Kiss ritual it appears that the price is paid by the person resurrected hence Beric losing more and more of himself. Although you can also see a toll on Thoros whether from the magic or just the general trials he's been through with the BWB and Lady Stoneheart. Hmm. I don't know what might change people's opinions of her. She happens to be a favorite of mine and I think she's one of the most interesting and well-intentioned characters in the series and surprisingly compassionate.

[Durran Durrandon]

Well he says that her and Varys are the two most misunderstood characters. I don't know what role she'll play in TWOW. I assume she'll at least have a hand in resurrecting Jon. I think Melisandre will end up sacrificing herself, but not to save Jon (if Thoros raising Beric six times is any indication). In the Last Kiss ritual it appears that the price is paid by the person resurrected hence Beric losing more and more of himself. Although you can also see a toll on Thoros whether from the magic or just the general trials he's been through with the BWB and Lady Stoneheart. Hmm. I don't know what might change people's opinions of her. She happens to be a favorite of mine and I think she's one of the most interesting and well-intentioned characters in the series and surprisingly compassionate.

I totally agree regarding Melisandre's intentions. However, I think many people are uncomfortable with her mode of utilitarianism, even when they forgive it in other characters. Oddly, I can get my head around pushing an eight year old out of a window, to save my three children and their mother. It is wrong, but I get it. Sacrificing an innocent boy to the flames as a step in generating the power to save the world from the icy apocalypse, is more abstract and sketchy Shadow magic, blood magic, sacrificing people, these are acts that instinctively belong to the realm of deontology. They are wrong period, The very act of them is wrong, regardless of the outcome. It is known.

I'm not saying that view is right. I am saying that is the gut reaction most people have, myself included.

[Blazfemur]

i think melisandre gets a bad wrap because a lot of people associate her shadowbinding abilities with rh'llor. that for some reason, since thoros of myr can resurrect, she can as well. this isnt the case. her shadowbinding abilities are exclusive to her and only her, whereas thoros' resurrection is exclusive to him. one does not necessarilly mean the other can do it too.

[BalerionTheCat]

Before, I was thinking that Bennero claim of a never ending summer was meaning the god's reward for bringing peace and unity to humankind. This, because Westeros has a similar legend (at least Tyrion's wet nurse):

my wet nurse told me that one day, if men were good, the gods would give the world a summer without ending. Perhaps we’ve been better than we thought, and the Great Summer is finally at hand.

I thought this Great Summer would have been the fix for the climate imbalance. But now I believe it's a lie.

Asshai is apparently corrupted by the Stone. I don't know what the Stone means, but we could say it is anti-light. And looking North, Bran has the vision of a "curtain of light at the end of the world". Is this curtain the manifestation of another stone? Could it be the same "star" used for Dawn the sword? The main fragment, while a little chunk was found south by a Dayne and used to forge the sword? Or Starfall is not the right place, and the sword was forged in the far North. Anyway, the skills necessary to forge such a sword seems beyond FM capabilities.

And BTW, I had some suggestions previously, about the NW founders connection with the men of the 5 forts. And Planetos equator and poles location. With our friend having difficulties with the polar regions, I wonder if anyone reads my remarks.

Probably not many things would have been recorded before the Andals. But the NW could have ice grave for their Lord Commanders. Even if they had no written records at all, they could have known he was the 13th LC. And afterward, the oral tradition could have kept only the number. Whenever the NW started.

If some FM were refugees from the troubles in the east, they could have known some shit would come from the North. Maybe the first NW brothers were people previously manning the 5 forts. And they decided to resume their station here. So, the 13 LC could be the LH, or another player in the LN and its ending. Not someone coming after.

Not geographically, but the 13th LC or the LH and his companions could be related to the events in the far east. And their surviving relatives could be first Starks.

And concerning Planetos. AFAIK, we don't know where, when going south, we meet again colder climates. As far as we know the north is very cold, because the sun is constantly warming the south pole. So, above some north latitude, the LN would be permanent. And the south pole would be a real inferno.

[Blazfemur]

Benerro is an absolute genius, sending thoros to KING robert, sending Moqorro to possible QUEEN Daenerys, and melisandre to possible KING Stannis. I know it's said melisandre's decision was rogue, but let's face it, Rh'llor's key priests/priestesses were placed in very opportune, strategic positions

[LmL]

Just wanted to say that generally I agree with Durran, Associate Maester, and Barri the Bold regarding Melissandre.

[Associate Maester]

I totally agree regarding Melisandre's intentions. However, I think many people are uncomfortable with her mode of utilitarianism, even when they forgive it in other characters. Oddly, I can get my head around pushing an eight year old out of a window, to save my three children and their mother. It is wrong, but I get it. Sacrificing an innocent boy to the flames as a step in generating the power to save the world from the icy apocalypse, is more abstract and sketchy Shadow magic, blood magic, sacrificing people, these are acts that instinctively belong to the realm of deontology. They are wrong period, The very act of them is wrong, regardless of the outcome. It is known.

I'm not saying that view is right. I am saying that is the gut reaction most people have, myself included.

I'm sure a lot of it boils down to what characters ping for people. I don't really have an issue with Melisandre's line of reasoning about the sacrifice. Sacrifice is a key part of most all the magic we've seen. I don't tend to view magic in ASOIAF as good or bad. It is what it is. Of course, I don't have an issue with shadow assassins either so go figure. The sort of either/or that many feel towards the magic and religion in ASOIAF is directly opposed to moral complexity that we actually see in the series.

[Associate Maester]

i think melisandre gets a bad wrap because a lot of people associate her shadowbinding abilities with rh'llor. that for some reason, since thoros of myr can resurrect, she can as well. this isnt the case. her shadowbinding abilities are exclusive to her and only her, whereas thoros' resurrection is exclusive to him. one does not necessarilly mean the other can do it too.

Agreed. I think it is her religious beliefs more than anything that turn readers off. Along with the negative opinions of her given by characters that are well-liked (Davos and Cressen). People also have a real issue with the shadow binding. While I agree Thoros wouldn't know about shadowbinding. Melisandre may not know the Last Kiss works. However, she would know it given it is one funerary right of the Red Faith.

[Barri_The_Bold]

I totally agree regarding Melisandre's intentions. However, I think many people are uncomfortable with her mode of utilitarianism, even when they forgive it in other characters. Oddly, I can get my head around pushing an eight year old out of a window, to save my three children and their mother. It is wrong, but I get it. Sacrificing an innocent boy to the flames as a step in generating the power to save the world from the icy apocalypse, is more abstract and sketchy Shadow magic, blood magic, sacrificing people, these are acts that instinctively belong to the realm of deontology. They are wrong period, The very act of them is wrong, regardless of the outcome. It is known.

I'm not saying that view is right. I am saying that is the gut reaction most people have, myself included.

I agree here. Somehow I can forgive Jaime more easily and have grown to like him, although he tried to murder an innocent child. But Melisandre is just so different from everyone else, kind of supernatural and you don't quite get the grip of her character unlike with other characters. I'm pretty sure that will change though and I'm looking forward to it.

And we should all be prepared for any unpopular decisions our favorite characters, whoever they may be, have to make for there are surely some coming up and likely some Melisandre considers know already. Human sacrifices and such...

[MizasterJ]

Thats a lot of talk. A lot of listing of choicy parallels, but really not clear what point you are trying to make.

ASOIAF is rampant with all kinds of parallels. You could literally drive yourself insane trying to draw a significant connection between all of them. There's way to much symbolism in the text for every single thing to be significantly linked.

I see you are trying to focus on some type of correlation between Mel and the Night's Queen and maybe also Adara, but i don't think you achieved this thought. Forgive me I'm not just criticizing for the sake of being a nay sayer, I actually want to try and support the theory but you just dont have enough evidence or a clear persuasion.

I dont agree with the idea that Mel is evolving. Sure things happen to her such as the bleeding which is prob triggered by some magical vision or event but, I highly highly doubt that she transforming.

It seems that Mel has something very important to R'hllor inside her, maybe she even has R'hllor himself existing in some form within her.

However the only parallel I see between her and the Night's Queen is that they both acted as sort of a succubus.

I'm not opposed to the idea of the Night's Queen birthing Others, but I doubt Mel will play a similar role.