One God, Two Gods, Red God Blue God: Melisandre and the Night's Queen

[The Mother of The Others]

random thoughts brought on by pages 2-3:

Mel's black blood just shows us her fused nature as a fire-shadow being? for her it's an ordinary Tuesday's blood tide as her engine continues to run... hot. Judging by the decrepid state of the Undying (once Danny saw them clearly), Mel may be hideous underneath too, but as her boy toy you wouldn't have to worry about that until she actually unravels, which would only be at the end anyway. So I say go for it.

If you ask me, Ancient Others (Ice Valyrians™) are opposite of red priests of Mel like power, shadows are opposite of Others (vanilla ones made from ice), Beric is opposite of Coldhands (sentient wight), there certainly will be not-sentient raised by R'hllor which are opposite of wights and dragon is opposite of ice dragon (both possibly being creation of their masters in various ways)

That's intense. For me the Others are the Ancient Others, you know? So for you it's not a continuous tradition of ice sorcery with a single enemy culture? I'm just expecting to see the one notable crossover invasion (the one that's been erased from the history books) when the Watch otherized some of its members and they retained their counter-culture mission against the Others even after they'd become ...Others. (see below.)* But you know, your Others = Mel's Shadows idea is the new part here that would nicely explain the single-mindedness of the Others as permanent Ice Shadows frozen into a state of malevolence. So the "Ice Valyrians" slot then opens up to provide us some contrast: the Original ice sorcerers who created Otherism would have been more well-rounded beings capable of laughing, making peace, etc., but apparently they died off----perhaps because of some Skynet type revolt led by their Ice Shadow creations, so that only the Others that we're familiar with were left standing and not the Originals. That'd be.... cool cold..

We've seen TNK, we've seen 12 in black. 13 of them. The baby transporter appears Other. not in black. Just because those 13 took the vows, doesnt mean all Others are watch, or were once part of, the watch.

* When I previously tried to explain why sexual reproduction is being similarly controlled / limited on both sides of the Wall by both watchmembers and Others, I came up with the notion that the Watch had sent some of its members on an even more extreme Undercover Mission north of the wall than when Jon was commanded to do his. Some of them were to join the Others in order to beat them, or become like them in order to survive on the Others' turf and match up with them in terms of power, or their mission is just to keep Them corralled, or, now that we have ice dragons to contemplate, maybe the watch Otherized a war party of rangers to go ice dragon hunting, like a permanent exterminator quest to keep that species from rebuilding its horrible strength. Etc. Something that started noble and then once you're a monster there's permanent consequences and you're trapped into that existence.

Hey, maybe the reason we never see a female Other is because our Othery Watch Dudes are slaying them all as they try to take down the species??? That would mean the Knight Queen was one of these who slipped through our aggressive defenses like a bomber on a raid to disrupt us and change us as much as possible. (I'm of the opinion She was up to something more ambitious than just your run of the mill transformation of human babies into Others. That usual turning method requires an adult Other to be present to capture each child it turns. That's legwork, and risky, and it's slow. What She wanted was to start an exponentially growing population of Others who'd be self-sustaining, born "normally" into the human population and then spread until they replaced us, though the human mothers would likely freeze, etc. So I'm thinking Night King's own kids didn't have to be transformed because they were born as Others, and his "sacrifices" were mass conversions of additional people discovered later like the Watch's own hidden holocaust that offended both sides of the wall.) Anyways, if the loyal Watch's Otherized Rangers ever "won" and totally killed off the original Others' species these Crow-Others would probably then off themselves and that'd be that. But in the meantime they have to keep their own numbers replenished while the enemy Others still exist, so... Craster's sons.... which means Craster actually was a servant of the Watch like Mormont called him!!!! If there were female others who then got hunted to extinction, wouldn't the desperate enemy Others be the ones who invented the turning of human babies first, as a work-around solution, and then the Watch's faithful Coldblood Crows had to follow suit and turn sons of their own to keep pace with the enemy's numbers so they didn't lose the long "stalemate" struggle in the cold. That's hot but very convoluted. What's appealing about it is it'd be a horrible trapped nightmare existence to have to live in.

[LmL]

Great thoughts as always, Mo O T O. If The watch was "other-izing" its members, they would have probably been like coldhands, I am thinking. Interesting idea in any case, especially because it parallels something that happened in the text.

The idea I like the most is the one about the white walkers being shadow creations of the original ancient others, who are now out of control and have a mind of their own – the comparison to Skynet is dead on. Whether the ancient others exist or not, this idea is interesting. It does draw a tighter parallel with the shadow babies that Mel births. Going to chew on that a bit

[ummester]

After just reading TMotOs post, something kind of obvious occurred to me.

Craster makes baby boys for Others. The whole Night's Watch taking no wives and fathering no children thing was probably made part of the vows after the NIght's King, so that the Night's Watch don't make baby boys for Others.

This would mean the OP is essentially correct, Others ain't Others, just cold imbued people. The question is why? Why did the Night's Watch stop sending people to be cold imbued whilst Craster still does?

It doesn't make any sense that an ice wall is made to keep cold imbued things from coming south. It makes for more sense that the ice wall was made to stop tainted, or non-First Men blood from going North.

Perhaps only First men can be Otherised? Perhaps the Wall was made to keep the North pure and Winterfell was made to keep the watchers on the Wall.

[Coldfinger]

Hey, I don't know if this is a new observation, but: 'heart tree' - a natural name for a centre of blood magic, no?

[Durran Durrandon]

I like the Skynet analogy. I'm not sold on it, but it is a great concept.

[Grayce Hornwood]

Firstly, I just want to say that I usually find long OP's like this incredibly difficult to read, because they usually aren't structured very well, but yours was great! Very well reasearched and thought out.

Secondly, you managed to convince me as well. I know that "The Ice Dragon" isn't canon, but I can definitely see the parallels between the two tales. It can't just be coincidental that the constellation that contains their "north star" is called the Ice Dragon. The tale of the Night's Queen also has too many similarities to "The Ice Dragon" to be ignored. Wonderful analysis!

[Durran Durrandon]

Than

Firstly, I just want to say that I usually find long OP's like this incredibly difficult to read, because they usually aren't structured very well, but yours was great! Very well reasearched and thought out.

Secondly, you managed to convince me as well. I know that "The Ice Dragon" isn't canon, but I can definitely see the parallels between the two tales. It can't just be coincidental that the constellation that contains their "north star" is called the Ice Dragon. The tale of the Night's Queen also has too many similarities to "The Ice Dragon" to be ignored. Wonderful analysis!

Thanks!

[Ghosts Lunch]

Nice thread

Good food for thought

The ancient rotted armour they wear makes me wonder if they are alternate children of the dawn

Going by the astronomy of Planetos, seems the land of light may now have an off light imposed over it, and there's ice as well. I like the idea they are opposed but in a different side to the same coin type of way and they are actually kind of interrelated

So the NQ and shadow babies is interesting

I liked e thread with 3 leaves to others hierarchy, a governing female class, the male white walker class and then the Wights

[LmL]

Nice thread

Good food for thought

The ancient rotted armour they wear makes me wonder if they are alternate children of the dawn

Going by the astronomy of Planetos, seems the land of light may now have an off light imposed over it, and there's ice as well. I like the idea they are opposed but in a different side to the same coin type of way and they are actually kind of interrelated

So the NQ and shadow babies is interesting

I liked e thread with 3 leaves to others hierarchy, a governing female class, the male white walker class and then the Wights

Is that Voice of the First Men's hierarchy of Others thread you're referring to?

[LmL]

Durran D, even though you're too busy with "real life" (*eye-roll*) to comment on my threads anymore, I did catch something the other day for this thread. Melissandre is referred to a the "Red Queen" indirectly a couple of times in ADWD, which further enhances the parallel here:

“The Seven defend White Harbor,” Lady Leona declared. “We do not fear your red queen or her god. Let her send what spells she will. The prayers of godly men will shield us against evil.”

[...]

“R’hllor, send your light to lead us through this gloom,” the faithful prayed that night as they gathered about a roaring blaze outside the king’s pavilion. Southron knights and men- at- arms, the lot of them. Asha would have called them king’s men, but the other stormlanders and crownlands men named them queen’s men … though the queen they followed was the red one at Castle Black, not the wife that Stannis Baratheon had left behind at Eastwatch- by- the- Sea. “Oh, Lord of Light, we beseech you, cast your fiery eye upon us and keep us safe and warm,” they sang to the flames, “ for the night is dark and full of terrors.”

One last thought, if Mel is the Red Queen and the Night's Queen blue, perhaps Val is the white "Queen" (using "queen" as "priestess")

[Durran Durrandon]

Durran D, even though you're too busy with "real life" (*eye-roll*) to comment on my threads anymore, I did catch something the other day for this thread. Melissandre is referred to a the "Red Queen" indirectly a couple of times in ADWD, which further enhances the parallel here:

“The Seven defend White Harbor,” Lady Leona declared. “We do not fear your red queen or her god. Let her send what spells she will. The prayers of godly men will shield us against evil.”

[...]

“R’hllor, send your light to lead us through this gloom,” the faithful prayed that night as they gathered about a roaring blaze outside the king’s pavilion. Southron knights and men- at- arms, the lot of them. Asha would have called them king’s men, but the other stormlanders and crownlands men named them queen’s men … though the queen they followed was the red one at Castle Black, not the wife that Stannis Baratheon had left behind at Eastwatch- by- the- Sea. “Oh, Lord of Light, we beseech you, cast your fiery eye upon us and keep us safe and warm,” they sang to the flames, “ for the night is dark and full of terrors.”

One last thought, if Mel is the Red Queen and the Night's Queen blue, perhaps Val is the white "Queen" (using "queen" as "priestess")

What would be the significance of a white queen? I might make her the green queen, associating her with the Old Gods/COTF, but I don't see her wielding sorcery.

[The Dames do Moan]

Nice OP, enjoyed the symbolizeme between fire magic and ice magic.

Probably mentioned up thread but I always figured the 'kiss of life' given to Cat, among others, was essentially the same thing the Others were doing with Crasters babes or at least the wights, just the Ice version of it.

[Durran Durrandon]

Nice OP, enjoyed the symbolizeme between fire magic and ice magic.

Probably mentioned up thread but I always figured the 'kiss of life' given to Cat, among others, was essentially the same thing the Others were doing with Crasters babes or at least the wights, just the Ice version of it.

Do you think the kiss of fire could be given to a live person then?

[The Dames do Moan]

Do you think the kiss of fire could be given to a live person then?

Potentially yes, i but really I have no textual evidence I'm going off of.

May just be the 'wighting' is the Ice version of the Kiss.

[LmL]

What would be the significance of a white queen? I might make her the green queen, associating her with the Old Gods/COTF, but I don't see her wielding sorcery.

There's a good thread about Val as a priestess somewhere, it's subtle but pretty convincing. She's much more than she appears... I'll drop the link when I can hunt it down. White, green, I see your argument. She seems to dress all in white though. Point is, if we have an ice queen and a fire queen, there might be one in the middle, which I suppose green is a better for for, but white could work too, purity and all. Ice is generally given the blue association, not white. It's frequently pale blue, pale light, pale crystal, etc, but almost never white... although I haven't spent a great deal of time thinking about this, it's off the top of my head and from that one essay I read.

[Durran Durrandon]

There's a good thread about Val as a priestess somewhere, it's subtle but pretty convincing. She's much more than she appears... I'll drop the link when I can hunt it down. White, green, I see your argument. She seems to dress all in white though. Point is, if we have an ice queen and a fire queen, there might be one in the middle, which I suppose green is a better for for, but white could work too, purity and all. Ice is generally given the blue association, not white. It's frequently pale blue, pale light, pale crystal, etc, but almost never white... although I haven't spent a great deal of time thinking about this, it's off the top of my head and from that one essay I read.

It is and pointedly, blue is given a sinister context through out the text. Swords are often described as having blue steel. The warlocks have their shade of the evening and twisted anti-weirwood trees, and there is the infamouse "blue eyes of death" line from Ned's fever dream.

[Associate Maester]

It is and pointedly, blue is given a sinister context through out the text. Swords are often described as having blue steel. The warlocks have their shade of the evening and twisted anti-weirwood trees, and there is the infamouse "blue eyes of death" line from Ned's fever dream.

I wouldn't read too much into blue steel. Blue steel "bluing" is a process that occurs when tempering or protecting against rust. I would hesitate to assign any particular sinister connotation to that. Martin is often literally describing a sword.

[Durran Durrandon]

I wouldn't read too much into blue steel. Blue steel "bluing" is a process that occurs when tempering or protecting against rust. I would hesitate to assign any particular sinister connotation to that. Martin is often literally describing a sword.

On one end, I hear your. There is a reason I didn't write anything about it in my original post. Sometimes people just have blue eyes. Sometimes a sapphire is just a sapphire. Ice is blue sometimes, but Martin makes in blue frequently and we have an association with blue and the others. Is he doing the same thing with weapons, maybe not, but he makes them blue so consistently that I wonder.

[weirwoodgroves]

So you think the Others are using blood magic, too? So let's say they have to sacrifice one of Craster's boys to make another an Other. I don't quite like that, because if we look at the case of Adara which Durran Durrandon displayed there is no blood sacrifice necessary to make Adara different from everyone else. It's rater a personification of the cold/the winter. I know it's not canonic but as Durrandon said it shows the ideas of GRRM at an early stage and the Others appear already at the very beginning of AGOT.

I rather like what PrettyPig said about Blood Magic and Ice Magic, that they are two sides of a coin, two types of magic with the same source but different methods. Like the Blood Magic comes from physically weakening someone by taking away significant amounts of blood (up to killing the sacrificed), whereas Ice Magic could take its power from sacrificing your ability to reproduce and thus to have a family, so sort of a spiritual sacrifice.

I admit the last part is a crackpot theory that just came to my mind since Others don't seem able to reproduce, but I like the idea of to opposites that originate from the same source but use different methods to accomplish theri goals.

just saying, in reference to the blood magic part of Adara's story, her mother is killed in order for her to become the ice girl, right? soooo........ dead mom is some pretty big blood magic, especially for george.

[TheNorthRemember]

And is not it easier to think that the Queen of the Night was another female ?? I always saw a romantic tragic point in the story, it's an impossible love between two different and hostile races.XD