One God, Two Gods, Red God Blue God: Melisandre and the Night's Queen

[LmL]

She already has. The Others are pale shadows, Mel has Shadow babies.

If you're one of those "you guys are trying to connect things that don't mean anything" people, this probably isn't your type of thread. Just sayin.

[LmL]

And Mel and the Nights Queen both acting as succubi is a PRETTY DAMN SIGNIFICANT correlation, don't you think? An ice succubus and a fire succubus... But you think there's nothing more to see here?

*shakes head, walks away*

[BalerionTheCat]

She already has. The Others are pale shadows, Mel has Shadow babies.

I know the Others are sometime referred to as shadows. But I don't think they are related to Melisandre's shadows.

Melisandre is related to R'hllor who is, I suppose, the Lord of Shadows. The Others and the Great Other are opposed to R'hllor, that at least seems clear.

[LmL]

I know the Others are sometime referred to as shadows. But I don't think they are related to Melisandre's shadows.

Melisandre is related to R'hllor who is, I suppose, the Lord of Shadows. The Others and the Great Other are opposed to R'hllor, that at least seems clear.

The point is that George seems to frequently draw parallels between the ice and fire magics and undead. The WW are called pale shadows like totes often. Like all the time. I mean, at the risk of pointing out the obvious, the series is called A Song of Ice and Fire. Ice and fire are opposing forces in nature and magic, and the balance between the two is what the song is all about. Thus, the idea of comparing the NQ and Mel is extremely valid, if only as an exploration. There really are a lot of parallels. There are only two instances in the series of succubi action - men who laid with women and have their souls away or whatever. Mel, and the NQ.

[J. Stargaryen]

Coming in a little late here, so I haven't read the thread yet, sorry if this was already mentioned. Anyway, I was wondering if anyone had mentioned the dragons Meleys the Red Queen and Tessarion the Blue Queen from the DotD? There's a good bit of symbolism in the DotD stories, if you look closely. The Battle Beneath the God's Eye features a 'fire' dragon versus what looks like the Ice Dragon constellation come to life. Caraxes was red, while Vhagar's rider, Aemond, had a sapphire in his eye. And the last dragon battle of the Dance was between Sunfyre and Moondancer.

[BalerionTheCat]

The point is that George seems to frequently draw parallels between the ice and fire magics and undead. The WW are called pale shadows like totes often. Like all the time. I mean, at the risk of pointing out the obvious, the series is called A Song of Ice and Fire. Ice and fire are opposing forces in nature and magic, and the balance between the two is what the song is all about. Thus, the idea of comparing the NQ and Mel is extremely valid, if only as an exploration. There really are a lot of parallels. There are only two instances in the series of succubi action - men who laid with women and have their souls away or whatever. Mel, and the NQ.

Magic is magic. And opposite forces can have similar effects. If you can make a ball of fire, I suppose you can make a ball of Ice or Cold. The Others have undead servants, so has R'hllor. But very few for now, and not under his apparent control. And no legend supports the idea it was common during the LN.

The Others are seen as shadows only during the night, generally in moon light. Possibly just normal shadows. So without other evidences, I would not jump to conclusions there. Davos and Brienne and Cat witnessing Melisandre magic, that was shadow, no mistake.

For Melisandre being the uber presence of R'hllor on Earth, practically his avatar, I don't think so. For now she seems just a mislead Red Priestess, possibly about to die with Jon revival. If there was someone like that, I would vote for Quaithe.

[MizasterJ]

And Mel and the Nights Queen both acting as succubi is a PRETTY DAMN SIGNIFICANT correlation, don't you think? An ice succubus and a fire succubus... But you think there's nothing more to see here?

*shakes head, walks away*

It depends what you are claiming Mel's purpose to be compared to what you believe the night's queen purpose was.

Mel gave birth to 1 shadow, which almost instantly vanished after it did its deed. That's' not the same as a Queen birthing a race of intelligent beings that have been around for conceivably a long time now.

I'm just trying to figure out what you're getting at. Are you implying that Mel will be the Mother of a race of Shadow people? or that she is evolving like Adara into some type of changeling?

[Durran Durrandon]

It depends what you are claiming Mel's purpose to be compared to what you believe the night's queen purpose was.

Mel gave birth to 1 shadow, which almost instantly vanished after it did its deed. That's' not the same as a Queen birthing a race of intelligent beings that have been around for conceivably a long time now.

I'm just trying to figure out what you're getting at. Are you implying that Mel will be the Mother of a race of Shadow people? or that she is evolving like Adara into some type of changeling?

I think I already have established that she has physically changed. She doesn't need to eat, barely needs to sleep, has some type of supernatural body heat and resistance to cold, d and there seems to be some indication that her eyes are developing the star like glow that is characteristic of the Night's Queen and the Others.

It's cool that you don't think there is enough evidence to support the idea that the Night's Queen was something like Melisandre. There isn't enough evidence. It's just my speculation. We are all just having fun while waiting for TWoW to come out.

As for my purpose, it was to hypothesize on the origin of the Others. I doubt Melisandre will live long enough to birth more shadow babies. There is no evidence yet to suggest that she can birth a permanent shadow, but I think she is very clearly hinting that she could birth a more powerful shadow at the wall due to her increased power and possibly due to Jon's inner power, I don't think it is a huge stretch as speculation goes to think that she could birth something permanent. It has huge implications for what the Night's Queen might have birthed at the Wall.

[Durran Durrandon]

Coming in a little late here, so I haven't read the thread yet, sorry if this was already mentioned. Anyway, I was wondering if anyone had mentioned the dragons Meleys the Red Queen and Tessarion the Blue Queen from the DotD? There's a good bit of symbolism in the DotD stories, if you look closely. The Battle Beneath the God's Eye features a 'fire' dragon versus what looks like the Ice Dragon constellation come to life. Caraxes was red, while Vhagar's rider, Aemond, had a sapphire in his eye. And the last dragon battle of the Dance was between Sunfyre and Moondancer.

Honestly, I need to give it a reread. I didn't want shoehorn the sapphire eye into my piece, though it immediately brought up the imagery of Symeon Star-Eyes and the Others, for me.

[MizasterJ]

I think I already have established that she has physically changed. She doesn't need to eat, barely needs to sleep, has some type of supernatural body heat and resistance to cold, d and there seems to be some indication that her eyes are developing the star like glow that is characteristic of the Night's Queen and the Others.

It's cool that you don't think there is enough evidence to support the idea that the Night's Queen was something like Melisandre. There isn't enough evidence. It's just my speculation. We are all just having fun while waiting for TWoW to come out.

As for my purpose, it was to hypothesize on the origin of the Others. I doubt Melisandre will live long enough to birth more shadow babies. There is no evidence yet to suggest that she can birth a permanent shadow, but I think she is very clearly hinting that she could birth a more powerful shadow at the wall due to her increased power and possibly due to Jon's inner power, I don't think it is a huge stretch as speculation goes to think that she could birth something permanent. It has huge implications for what the Night's Queen might have birthed at the Wall.

Interesting that you think she is developing. IDK. Whose to say that she hasn't had the shine eyes from the moment we first see her? I will say that her power is increasing due to her proximity to the Wall which is suspicious. Is it the wall that's doing it or the fact that she is closer to the heart of winter?

I'm just going to say i think Mel's main purpose will be to resurrect Jon Snow as AA.

I dont see her shadow people at all as counter opposites to the others, but hey its all fun and speculation.

[ummester]

I'm just going to say i think Mel's main purpose will be to resurrect Jon Snow as AA.

I dont see her shadow people at all as counter opposites to the others, but hey its all fun and speculation.

I'd agree with that. Mel's there to get Jon back on his feet. I think that once he is, the final reversal in the story will be quite apparent for most to see.

I mean really, what kind of hero is given life by a demonically possessed woman?

[LmL]

Coming in a little late here, so I haven't read the thread yet, sorry if this was already mentioned. Anyway, I was wondering if anyone had mentioned the dragons Meleys the Red Queen and Tessarion the Blue Queen from the DotD? There's a good bit of symbolism in the DotD stories, if you look closely. The Battle Beneath the God's Eye features a 'fire' dragon versus what looks like the Ice Dragon constellation come to life. Caraxes was red, while Vhagar's rider, Aemond, had a sapphire in his eye. And the last dragon battle of the Dance was between Sunfyre and Moondancer.

That sounds like you're singing my song. The sun kills a moon at dragon stone? Fire dragon killing ice dragon over the God's Eye? Yes sir. Basically everything that happened near the God's Eye seems to have astronomy hints - I think this is because the God's Eye refers to the transit of the smaller fire moon across the face of the sun. A black iris on a red eye. I mean, think about it. Our ancient peoples ascribed tremendous meaning to eclipses. On Planetos, when the smaller fire moon passes in from of the sun, it would have dotted the "eye," and it truly would have looked like the eye of God. And when this happened, a thousand dragons poured forth.

A thousand eyes and one.

[The Mother of The Others]

seems like Bran and Danny are aiming for the same result only from different angles. But I think Bran is (or will be) far ahead of Dany, since she never touched Shade of the Evening again

Hesitation. Is it better to go deeper in the service of magic? Give magic more chances to use you and you'll lose more of yourself to the magic. Danny is perhaps the one who's ahead in the race to navigate this course while remaining her own. Touch magic and then quickly let go once you've used it to adjust your heading, and you may retain your identity better as a free person. Treat it like removing a burning hot iron from the stove, or burning cold. The ones who hold on tend to be weirdos. The Undying, the GrootRaven, the Flamers, the Waif. Arya then is right not to give herself over to the Black & White completely, that way she won't be completely used.

she is more powerful when she is closer to the Heart of Shadow, just as she is more powerful when she is near the Heart of Winter.

the magical poles have magic WiFi

She is becoming more and more of an opposite of an Other. The black blood is a real sign she is not human any more. No eating and sleeping, extended life and youthfulness and black blood like that of dragons and demons. What's going on here?

fire priests as the opposite of Others is much more symmetrical than having Dragons be the Others' opposite number. Mama like. There's now the problem, though, of how the Ice Pole appears to be underperforming: the Asshai fire pole has birthed fire priests & dragons, while the Winter has only Others to show for itself. Where's the ice ice dragons, baby? The question was never a pressing one when it looked like the magic poles were aiming for Asymmetrical warfare with Dragons vs. Others. (And until recently ice dragons were a laughable concept). But now we need an ice dragon as the papa vampire who sired the human versions of Otherism, to mimic how fire dragons are the Shadow's natural manifestation which us humies then messed with to create fire priests as the human-esque fire abomination.

My guess here is that Fire proved easier to tame, just as Fire dragons are reportedly weaker than Ice dragons. So we couldn't tame Ice dragons and had to deal with them more severely. We beat them back (at great cost) and made sure Fire's dominance spread over most of the earth to maximize its market share. Ice has been corraled, and then literally Walled up. Because an Ice dragon invasion fought on their home turf (Winter) would be a losing battle. They win on their home turf because Ice dragons are stronger. So we shrank their home turf. The Starks, for helping to do this, are remembered by the gods (the elementally neutral Children). But now it's time for the Children to experience the Winter season of their species (they're on the way out.) So.... Winter senses the time is ripe for bursting its bounds. The humanoid Others might just be the vanguard.... the real inmates behind the Wall could be the Ice dragons. Or, if we're going with the vampiric stereotype, there may be only one remaining Ice dragon, the Great Other so to speak.

[LmL]

{snip}

fire priests as the opposite of Others is much more symmetrical than having Dragons be the Others' opposite number. Mama like. There's now the problem, though, of how the Ice Pole appears to be underperforming: the Asshai fire pole has birthed fire priests & dragons, while the Winter has only Others to show for itself. Where's the ice ice dragons, baby? The question was never a pressing one when it looked like the magic poles were aiming for Asymmetrical warfare with Dragons vs. Others. (And until recently ice dragons were a laughable concept). But now we need an ice dragon as the papa vampire who sired the human versions of Otherism, to mimic how fire dragons are the natural manifestation of the Shadow which humies then messed with to forge a human fire abomination (the priests)

I’m with you here so far. The opposite of dragons could be the supposed “Ancient Others,” the ones who rides the ice spiders, the ones we apparently still have not seen. I’m sure you’re familiar with Voice of the First Men’s hierarchy of Others theory. But, I personally think that the Ice Dragon is a-comin! You only need one ice dragon to fight three fire ones (“The Ice Dragon” tells us that), so one is enough. There was way too much stuff about them in TWOIAF, and I don’t believe Jon will ride one of Dany’s dragons. It’s the Ice Dragon for him, I’m sure of it. Too much foreshadowing in this regard around Jon.

There is an explanation though, if the Shadow and the Heart of Winter aren’t exact opposites. Have you read my latest one on the Great Empire of the Dawn? I proposed that the heart of shadow used to be the heart of summer, a source of uncorrupted fire magic, and a perfect opposite to the heart of winter. The HoW is a the north pole (and maybe the south pole) while the HoS is around the equator. These poles were tied to the two moons - and ice and fire moon - and when the comet struck the fire moon and destroyed it, causing the Long Night, the heart of summer was corrupted to become the Shadow. Thus, it’s all messed up, it’s fire magic is dark and shadowy instead of luminescent, etc. I’m just putting this out there as an explanation for an unequal layout of ice and fire magic. Fire magic is twisted, according to my theory.

[Equilibrium]

I’m with you here so far. The opposite of dragons could be the supposed “Ancient Others,” the ones who rides the ice spiders, the ones we apparently still have not seen. I’m sure you’re familiar with Voice of the First Men’s hierarchy of Others theory. But, I personally think that the Ice Dragon is a-comin! You only need one ice dragon to fight three fire ones (“The Ice Dragon” tells us that), so one is enough. There was way too much stuff about them in TWOIAF, and I don’t believe Jon will ride one of Dany’s dragons. It’s the Ice Dragon for him, I’m sure of it. Too much foreshadowing in this regard around Jon.

If you ask me, Ancient Others (Ice Valyrians™) are opposite of red priests of Mel like power, shadows are opposite of Others (vanilla ones made from ice), Beric is opposite of Coldhands (sentient wight), there certainly will be not-sentient raised by R'hllor which are opposite of wights and dragon is opposite of ice dragon (both possibly being creation of their masters in various ways)

[ummester]

fire priests as the opposite of Others is much more symmetrical than having Dragons be the Others' opposite number. Mama like. There's now the problem, though, of how the Ice Pole appears to be underperforming: the Asshai fire pole has birthed fire priests & dragons, while the Winter has only Others to show for itself. Where's the ice ice dragons, baby? The question was never a pressing one when it looked like the magic poles were aiming for Asymmetrical warfare with Dragons vs. Others. (And until recently ice dragons were a laughable concept). But now we need an ice dragon as the papa vampire who sired the human versions of Otherism, to mimic how fire dragons are the Shadow's natural manifestation which us humies then messed with to create fire priests as the human-esque fire abomination.

Unless Others and dragons aren't gearing up for asymmetrical warfare. It's called A Song of Ice and Fire, don't forget - not A Battle of Ice and Fire, or Fire and Ice like that old cartoon - but a song. The Ice and Fire, or magical forces beyond the poles, may be destined to unite, not conflict.

[LmL]

Unless Others and dragons aren't gearing up for asymmetrical warfare. It's called A Song of Ice and Fire, don't forget - not A Battle of Ice and Fire, or Fire and Ice like that old cartoon - but a song. The Ice and Fire, or magical forces beyond the poles, may be destined to unite, not conflict.

While there's some truth to this, the Vikings called their battles songs, and most of their stories were "song of _____". Martin has further reinforced the equating of battles and songs throughout the series. I believe he's implying multiple meanings here for song - it's a battle, surely, but also a harmonization, as you suggest. Planetos is currently in a state of imbalance, and balance will be a part of the resolution, surely.

[Durran Durrandon]

While there's some truth to this, the Vikings called their battles songs, and most of their stories were "song of _____". Martin has further reinforced the equating of battles and songs throughout the series. I believe he's implying multiple meanings here for song - it's a battle, surely, but also a harmonization, as you suggest. Planetos is currently in a state of imbalance, and balance will be a part of the resolution, surely.

We are told that the war between the First Men and the Children of the Forest ended when the wisest of both races prevailed. We are given the Reeds swearing an oath by ice and fire and a Pact of Ice and Fire, and are told the Song of Ice and Fire is the song of the Prince that was Promised. So, while it is a battle in the heads of the Red Priests and possibly the Others, I think that is the primary meaning.

[Tyrell_like_Squirrel]

This is, without a doubt, one of the most well thought out and well put together theories I have ever read. Bravo to the OP! I'm really excited to see where all this goes, but your line about "others not being others at all" just made everything click in my mind. I'm quite convinced now.

[Durran Durrandon]

This is, without a doubt, one of the most well thought out and well put together theories I have ever read. Bravo to the OP! I'm really excited to see where all this goes, but your line about "others not being others at all" just made everything click in my mind. I'm quite convinced now.

Ah thanks, I really appreciate it.